Australian Politics Forum - East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati

Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #30 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:20pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 1:07pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 7:38am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 5:01pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9^th, 2019 at 10:27am:

Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations.

200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles).

The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together?

I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years.

And how long did that take, at least 100 years.

As explained, it took Australia about 30 years to have sufficiently first-world living conditions after the first fleet arrived. I don't believe East Timor needs that amount of time to get to first world living conditions.

Did it though?

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Secret Wars

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #31 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:32pm

Frank wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 11:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 8:33pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 7:24pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 5:39pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 4:41pm:

[quote author=Brian_Ross link=1567054186/12#12 date=1567922915][quote author=WorldSacred link=1567054186/11#11 date=1567903133]Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region.

If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese?

I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region.

Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub? Do you believe that is fair or just? 'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing. Roll Eyes

Protecting Australia's interests is not cheating. ANd it wasn't their 'legal income' since Australia has done most of the exploring, investing, extraction, liberation, financial propping up of a barely viable half island a couple of whose sons went to uni in Portugal and had 'national' aspirations.

Soren, there is what is considered fair and just in negotiations and what isn't. Australia acted unfair and unjustly in negotiating the oil leases with Timor Leste. Time you recognised that,as the World Court did. Australia was caught out, fair and square.

There is a world of difference between "protecting our interests" and cheating, Soren.

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If Australia thought East Timor was making unfair claims then it was natural to seek ways to protect and promote Australia's own interests.

The Chinese are listening in and stealing Western intellectual property. Every embassy is bugged, one way or another. In grass huts it's easier to detect it.

Brian Ross belongs to the kumbya Gentlemen don’t read other Gentlemen’s mail school of international relations and diplomacy. I would expect our representatives to try and get every advantage, fair or not. No one gets credit for doing the right thing, in fact it’s a mugs game.

It’s the real world, not a forum debating club, Brian’s tears wont wash away realpolitik.

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Secret Wars

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #32 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:33pm

Brian Ross belongs to the kumbya Gentlemen don’t read other Gentlemen’s mail school of international relations and diplomacy. I would expect our representatives to try and get every advantage, fair or not. No one gets credit for doing the right thing, in fact it’s a mugs game.

It’s the real world, not a forum debating club, Brian’s tears wont wash away realpolitik.

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UnSubRocky

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #33 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:37pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 10:56pm:

Really? Why? Indonesia has never shown any serious interest in attempting to invade Australia. Roll Eyes

To YOUR knowledge, Indonesia has not shown any serious interest. But, they have shown a great deal of interest in acquiring all this farmland to unload their farmers to expand.

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UnSubRocky

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #34 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 3:06pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:20pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 1:07pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 7:38am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 5:01pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9^th, 2019 at 10:27am:

Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations.

200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles).

The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together?

I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years.

And how long did that take, at least 100 years.

As explained, it took Australia about 30 years to have sufficiently first-world living conditions after the first fleet arrived. I don't believe East Timor needs that amount of time to get to first world living conditions.

Did it though?

Yes, Kinne. Perhaps you might want to read up on history books about how the first settlers could not survive beyond starvation levels until they had things under control by 1815.

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Brian Ross

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #35 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 3:25pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 10:56pm:

Really? Why? Indonesia has never shown any serious interest in attempting to invade Australia. Roll Eyes

To YOUR knowledge, Indonesia has not shown any serious interest. But, they have shown a great deal of interest in acquiring all this farmland to unload their farmers to expand.

My knowledge of Australian - Indonesian interactions is quite extensive, UnSub. Far more extensive than yours. Now, if you have knowledge of this "serious interest in invading Australia," put it up and let us examine it. Otherwise, please stop bullshitting. Roll Eyes

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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Australian Legend Posts: 21726 Rockhampton, Q Gender:	Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati Reply #36 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 10:03pm Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia.
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Brian Ross

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #37 - Sep 11^th, 2019 at 11:33pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia.

Who is relying on the MSM, apart from yourself?

I am relying on academic journal articles, books and so on.

Now, your failure to produce evidence to back your claims seems to indicate there is none. You are just bullshitting. Tsk, tsk. I'll accept this as your flag of surrender. Roll Eyes

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #38 - Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:25am

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 3:06pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:20pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 1:07pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 7:38am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 5:01pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9^th, 2019 at 10:27am:

Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations.

200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles).

The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together?

I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years.

And how long did that take, at least 100 years.

As explained, it took Australia about 30 years to have sufficiently first-world living conditions after the first fleet arrived. I don't believe East Timor needs that amount of time to get to first world living conditions.

Did it though?

Yes, Kinne. Perhaps you might want to read up on history books about how the first settlers could not survive beyond starvation levels until they had things under control by 1815.

So in other words what you're saying is they didn't starve by 1815, hardly first world.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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UnSubRocky

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #39 - Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:39am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 11:33pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia.

Who is relying on the MSM, apart from yourself?

I am relying on academic journal articles, books and so on.

Now, your failure to produce evidence to back your claims seems to indicate there is none. You are just bullshitting. Tsk, tsk. I'll accept this as your flag of surrender. Roll Eyes

Oh, come on... This issue would be in the news, had the desire to take over Australia been made public knowledge. You might want to also consider that the United States wants Australia to be third world. They don't care who is in charge of Australia. They just want us to be poor. Are you going to deny that too?

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UnSubRocky

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #40 - Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:45am

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:25am:

So in other words what you're saying is they didn't starve by 1815, hardly first world.

I am saying that the first settlers had gotten the colony in order to the point that they were not starving like they were back in the late 1790s. Stories, about how they would die of malnutrition or collapse waiting for their rations, exist.

Perhaps you want to show me stories about how it was easy to set up a colony with few problems, to contradict my claims.

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati Reply #41 - Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:47am Who's debating that, you said first world society. By your own admission, it wasn't by 1815.
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Brian Ross

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #42 - Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:09pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:39am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 11:33pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia.

Who is relying on the MSM, apart from yourself?

I am relying on academic journal articles, books and so on.

Now, your failure to produce evidence to back your claims seems to indicate there is none. You are just bullshitting. Tsk, tsk. I'll accept this as your flag of surrender. Roll Eyes

Oh, come on... This issue would be in the news, had the desire to take over Australia been made public knowledge.

There is no evidence, anywhere that Indonesia seriously considered invading Australia since the formation of Indonesia in 1945. As you are unable to provide evidence for your assertion, except by innuendo, I think it's a non-starter. Thank you for your surrender, UnSub. Roll Eyes

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You might want to also consider that the United States wants Australia to be third world. They don't care who is in charge of Australia. They just want us to be poor. Are you going to deny that too?

There is no evidence that the US wants Australia poor. Indeed, I personally can't believe they do. Poor people can't buy expensive US goods. They want us at least moderately well off to afford all their wonderful toys and geegaws. They don't want us to challenger their world supremacy, that's all. Roll Eyes

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Mr Hammer

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #43 - Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:37pm

Looks like a pretty complicated situation. Most of the gas and oil fields sit in Australian waters or their zone of control. So a 50-50 split with Timor is ridiculous. And seeing that Timor doesn't have the ability to suck the oil and gas out do they employ Australian or Indonesian companies to do so. So all those costs of extraction don't fall on the shoulders of Timor. If Timor does employ an Indonesian company to do the drilling can they really be trusted to cooperate and not suck most out for themselves. The most fair scenario would be for Australian companies be in control of the whole operation and give Timor around 20% of the profits. That's my opinion.

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Re: East Timor - Australia's non-role in it's liberati
Reply #44 - Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:44pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:37pm:

Looks like a pretty complicated situation. Most of the gas and oil fields sit in Australian waters or their zone of control. So a 50-50 split with Timor is ridiculous. And seeing that Timor doesn't have the ability to suck the oil and gas out do they employ Australian or Indonesian companies to do so. So all those costs of extraction don't fall on the shoulders of Timor. If Timor does employ an Indonesian company to do the drilling can they really be trusted to cooperate and not suck most out for themselves. The most fair scenario would be for Australian companies be in control of the whole operation and give Timor around 20% of the profits. That's my opinion.

Immaterial who they employ to do the work. The oil and gas has been decreed to belong to Timor Leste, Hammer. QED. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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