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Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible? (Read 6116 times)
Brian Ross
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #45 - Jul 16th, 2019 at 11:23pm
 
moses wrote on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:52pm:
Run back to the playground is forky tongue for: you've got me, I'm  out of here.

Cowardly apologists for islamic terrorism use it all the time.


...

Poor, poor, Moses.  You really don't have any idea about the concept of a debate, where adult discussion takes place and each person doesn't resort to personal insults, do you?  Tsk, tsk.    Roll Eyes

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moses
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #46 - Jul 17th, 2019 at 2:06pm
 
forky tongue speak for: you've got me, I'm  out of here.

Cowardly apologists for islamic terrorism use it all the time.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #47 - Jul 17th, 2019 at 3:41pm
 
moses wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 2:06pm:
forky tongue speak for: you've got me, I'm  out of here.

Cowardly apologists for islamic terrorism use it all the time.


Actually, Forky Tongue has posted a brilliant piece of insight here: the Bible contains the concept of jihad.

As such, we now know which tradition the term (in Arabic) stems from.

This is a very interesting piece of work.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #48 - Jul 17th, 2019 at 4:06pm
 
Lets examine the word, "Jihad", shall we?  Instead of relying upon Islamophobic websites, lets see what the word actually means in an Islamic context:

Quote:
Jihad (English: /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ jihād [dʒɪˈhaːd]) is an Arabic word which literally means striving or struggling, especially with a praiseworthy aim.[1][2][3][4] In an Islamic context, it can refer to almost any effort to make personal and social life conform with God's guidance, such as struggle against one's evil inclinations, religious proselytizing, or efforts toward the moral betterment of the ummah,[1][2][5] though it is most frequently associated with war.[6] In classical Islamic law, the term refers to armed struggle against unbelievers,[2][3] while modernist Islamic scholars generally equate military jihad with defensive warfare.[7][8] In Sufi and pious circles, spiritual and moral jihad has been traditionally emphasized under the name of greater jihad.[9][3] The term has gained additional attention in recent decades through its use by terrorist groups.

The word jihad appears frequently in the Quran with and without military connotations,[10] often in the idiomatic expression "striving in the path of God (al-jihad fi sabil Allah)".[11][12] Islamic jurists and other ulema of the classical era understood the obligation of jihad predominantly in a military sense.[13] They developed an elaborate set of rules pertaining to jihad, including prohibitions on harming those who are not engaged in combat.[14][15] In the modern era, the notion of jihad has lost its jurisprudential relevance and instead given rise to an ideological and political discourse.[7] While modernist Islamic scholars have emphasized defensive and non-military aspects of jihad, some Islamists have advanced aggressive interpretations that go beyond the classical theory.[7]

Jihad is classified into inner ("greater") jihad, which involves a struggle against one's own base impulses, and external ("lesser") jihad, which is further subdivided into jihad of the pen/tongue (debate or persuasion) and jihad of the sword.[16][9] Most Western writers consider external jihad to have primacy over inner jihad in the Islamic tradition, while much of contemporary Muslim opinion favors the opposite view.[16] Gallup analysis of a large survey reveals considerable nuance in the conceptions of jihad held by Muslims around the world.[17]

Jihad is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam, though this designation is not commonly recognized.[18] In Twelver Shi'a Islam jihad is one of the ten Practices of the Religion.[19] A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid (plural mujahideen). The term jihad is often rendered in English as "Holy War",[20][21][22] although this translation is controversial.[23][24] Today, the word jihad is often used without religious connotations, like the English crusade.[1][2]

[Source]

Now, if Wikipedia can get it right, why do Islamophobes only concentrate on one version of the word?  Could it be because they hate Muslims and Islam beyond reason?  Nah, of course not.  No, no, no.  I really think Islamophobes need help.  Just as anti-Semites do and Protestant bigots.    :roll:

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Frank
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #49 - Jul 17th, 2019 at 8:47pm
 
Jihad kills.

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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #50 - Jul 17th, 2019 at 11:27pm
 
Frank wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 8:47pm:
Jihad kills.


That should read "Some Jihad kills," Soren.    Roll Eyes
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moses
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #51 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 12:26am
 
Why the smokescreen?

Jihad that kills is the issue, those that slay and are slain are a grade higher than other muslims.

If jihad is spiritual, why do they have to kill and be killed in order to be guaranteed a place in the big brothel in the sky, full of aliens with big tits and little boys scattered like pearls around the brothel?
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Brian Ross
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #52 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 4:42pm
 
moses wrote on Jul 19th, 2019 at 12:26am:
Why the smokescreen?

Jihad that kills is the issue, those that slay and are slain are a grade higher than other muslims.

If jihad is spiritual, why do they have to kill and be killed in order to be guaranteed a place in the big brothel in the sky, full of aliens with big tits and little boys scattered like pearls around the brothel?


"Jihad that kills is the issue..."

Actually it isn't, Moses but you carry on with your Islamophobic rant.

The issue is whether or not the concept of Jihad - spiritual struggle - is present in the Bible.  Is it, Moses?  I await your opinion.  That is, if you have time to give it, amongst your usual Islamophobic rants.   Roll Eyes
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #53 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 5:02pm
 
The qur'an actually says which muslims are a grade higher and I can tell you they have sweet fanny adams to do with spiritual issues.

They slay and are slain.


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Brian Ross
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #54 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 6:05pm
 
Obviously not.  Nothing of value to contribute to the discussion, hey?  Poor, poor, Moses, completely unable to forget your Islamophobia, hey?  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes
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Frank
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #55 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 6:39pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 11:27pm:
Frank wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 8:47pm:
Jihad kills.


That should read "Some Jihad kills," Soren.    Roll Eyes

It's not for me to adjust Islam and its jihad, it's for Muslims. Muslims have trashed their reputation for 1400 years and they are thrashing it further every day in every corner of the globe. Because of jihad.
Their jihad kills - or rather, Mohammedans  kill as an act of jihad. That's why the most terrifying words  in a crowded place nowadays are  'Allahu Akhbar!'.

Nobody runs for cover when a Christian says 'praise be to god', or 'thank you, Jesus', or  when a Buddhist says 'Uhhhmmm' in a crowded railway station or an Aborigine spins a yarn about the frog whose laughter saved the world from thirst.








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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #56 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 7:19pm
 
Frank wrote on Jul 19th, 2019 at 6:39pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 11:27pm:
Frank wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 8:47pm:
Jihad kills.


That should read "Some Jihad kills," Soren.    Roll Eyes

It's not for me to adjust Islam and its jihad, it's for Muslims. Muslims have trashed their reputation for 1400 years and they are thrashing it further every day in every corner of the globe. Because of jihad.
Their jihad kills - or rather, Mohammedans  kill as an act of jihad. That's why the most terrifying words  in a crowded place nowadays are  'Allahu Akhbar!'.

Nobody runs for cover when a Christian says 'praise be to god', or 'thank you, Jesus', or  when a Buddhist says 'Uhhhmmm' in a crowded railway station or an Aborigine spins a yarn about the frog whose laughter saved the world from thirst.


Oh, I know. We duck for cover every time the bearded numpties say that at the corner prayer hall.

Mind you, those Tongan Baptists are rather menacing in their grass skirts too. You certainly wouldn't want to run into one in a dark alley, that's for shure.

As for the Anglican Church, that's been taken over by the Nepalese. Imagine, a bunch of darkies singing their pagan hymns in our sandstone cathedral.

You Lutherans must understand. You've got some Gollywogs in yours, no?

Rich tapestry, innit.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #57 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 8:11pm
 
Let us examine, shall we how the usage of the term, "Jihad" has changed over the years:
Quote:
History of usage and practice

The practice of periodic raids by Bedouins against enemy tribes and settlements to collect spoils predates the revelations of the Quran.[citation needed] According to some scholars (such as James Turner Johnson), while Islamic leaders "instilled into the hearts of the warriors the belief" in jihad "holy war" and ghaza (raids), the "fundamental structure" of this bedouin warfare "remained, ... raiding to collect booty".[42] According to Jonathan Berkey, the Quran's statements in support of jihad may have originally been directed against Muhammad's local enemies, the pagans of Mecca or the Jews of Medina, but these same statements could be redirected once new enemies appeared.[43] According to another scholar (Majid Khadduri), it was the shift in focus to the conquest and spoils collecting of non-Bedouin unbelievers and away from traditional inter-bedouin tribal raids, that may have made it possible for Islam not only to expand but to avoid self-destruction.[44]

Classical

"From an early date Muslim law laid down" jihad in the military sense as "one of the principal obligations" of both "the head of the Muslim state", who declared the jihad, and the Muslim community.[45] According to legal historian Sadakat Kadri, Islamic jurists first developed classical doctrine of jihad "towards the end of the eighth century", using the doctrine of naskh (that God gradually improved His revelations over the course of Muhammed's mission) they subordinated verses in the Quran emphasizing harmony to more the more "confrontational" verses of Muhammad's later years and linked verses on exertion (jihad) to those of fighting (qital).[46] Muslims jurists of the eighth century developed a paradigm of international relations that divides the world into three conceptual divisions, dar al-Islam/dar al-‛adl/dar al-salam (house of Islam/house of justice/house of peace), dar al-harb/dar al-jawr (house of war/house of injustice, oppression), and dar al-sulh/dar al-‛ahd/dār al-muwada‛ah (house of peace/house of covenant/house of reconciliation).[47][48] The second/eighth century jurist Sufyan al-Thawri (d. 161/778) headed what Khadduri calls a pacifist school, which maintained that jihad was only a defensive war,[49][50] He also states that the jurists who held this position, among whom he refers to Hanafi jurists, al-Awza‛i (d. 157/774), Malik ibn Anas (d. 179/795), and other early jurists, "stressed that tolerance should be shown unbelievers, especially scripturaries and advised the Imam to prosecute war only when the inhabitants of the dar al-harb came into conflict with Islam."[50][51] The duty of Jihad was a collective one (fard al-kifaya). It was to be directed only by the caliph who might delayed it when convenient, negotiating truces for up to ten years at a time.[52] Within classical Islamic jurisprudence— the development of which is to be dated into—the first few centuries after the prophet's death[53]—jihad consisted of wars against unbelievers, apostates, and was the only form of warfare permissible.[54] (Another source—Bernard Lewis—states that fighting rebels and bandits was legitimate though not a form of jihad,[55] and that while the classical perception and presentation of the jihad was warfare in the field against a foreign enemy, internal jihad "against an infidel renegade, or otherwise illegitimate regime was not unknown."[56])

The primary aim of jihad as warfare is not the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam by force, but rather the expansion and defense of the Islamic state.[57][58] In theory, jihad was to continue until "all mankind either embraced Islam or submitted to the authority of the Muslim state." There could be truces before this was achieved, but no permanent peace.[45] One who died "on the path of God" was a martyr (shahid), whose sins were remitted and who was secured "immediate entry to paradise".[59] However, some argue martyrdom is never automatic because it is within God's exclusive province to judge who is worthy of that designation.[60]

[Cont'd]
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Brian Ross
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #58 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 8:13pm
 
Quote:
Classical manuals of Islamic jurisprudence often contained a section called Book of Jihad, with rules governing the conduct of war covered at great length. Such rules include treatment of nonbelligerents, women, children (also cultivated or residential areas),[61][62] and division of spoils.[63] Such rules offered protection for civilians.[64] Spoils include Ghanimah (spoils obtained by actual fighting), and fai (obtained without fighting i.e. when the enemy surrenders or flees).[65]

The first documentation of the law of jihad was written by 'Abd al-Rahman al-Awza'i and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Shaybani. (It grew out of debates that surfaced following Muhammad's death.[26]) Although some Islamic scholars have differed on the implementation of Jihad, there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression.[66][not specific enough to verify]

As important as jihad was, it was/is not considered one of the "pillars of Islam". According to one scholar (Majid Khadduri, this is most likely because unlike the pillars of prayer, fasting, etc., jihad was a "collective obligation" of the whole Muslim community (meaning that "if the duty is fulfilled by a part of the community it ceases to be obligatory on others"), and was to be carried out by the Islamic state.[67] This was the belief of "all jurists, with almost no exception", but did not apply to defense of the Muslim community from a sudden attack, in which case jihad was and "individual obligation" of all believers, including women and children.[67]

Early Muslim conquests

In the early era that inspired classical Islam (Rashidun Caliphate) and lasted less than a century, jihad spread the realm of Islam to include millions of subjects, and an area extending "from the borders of India and China to the Pyrenees and the Atlantic".[68] The two empires impeding the advance of Islam were the Persian Sassanian empire and the Byzantine Empire. By 657 the Persian empire was conquered and by 661 the Byzantine empire was reduced to a fraction of its former size.[citation needed]

The role of religion in these early conquests is debated. Medieval Arabic authors believed the conquests were commanded by God, and presented them as orderly and disciplined, under the command of the caliph.[69] Many modern historians question whether hunger and desertification, rather than jihad, was a motivating force in the conquests. The famous historian William Montgomery Watt argued that “Most of the participants in the [early Islamic] expeditions probably thought of nothing more than booty ... There was no thought of spreading the religion of Islam.”[70] Similarly, Edward J. Jurji argues that the motivations of the Arab conquests were certainly not “for the propagation of Islam ... Military advantage, economic desires, [and] the attempt to strengthen the hand of the state and enhance its sovereignty ... are some of the determining factors.”[70] Some recent explanations cite both material and religious causes in the conquests.[71]

Post-Classical usage

According to some authors,[who?] the more spiritual definitions of jihad developed sometime after the 150 years of jihad wars and Muslim territorial expansion, and particularly after the Mongol invaders sacked Baghdad and overthrew the Abbasid Caliphate.[citation needed][72] The historian Hamilton Gibb states that "in the historic [Muslim] Community the concept of jihad had gradually weakened and at length it had been largely reinterpreted in terms of Sufi ethics."[73]

Islamic scholar Rudolph Peters also wrote that with the stagnation of Islamic expansionism, the concept of jihad became internalized as a moral or spiritual struggle.[74] Earlier classical works on fiqh emphasized jihad as war for God's religion, Peters found. Later Muslims (in this case modernists such as Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida) emphasized the defensive aspect of jihad—which was similar to the Western concept of a "just war".[75] Today, some Muslim authors only recognize wars fought for the purpose of territorial defense as well as wars fought for the defense of religious freedom as legitimate.[76]

Bernard Lewis states that while most Islamic theologians in the classical period (750–1258 CE) understood jihad to be a military endeavor,[77] after Islamic conquest stagnated and the caliphate broke up into smaller states the "irresistible and permanent jihad came to an end". As jihad became unfeasible it was "postponed from historic to messianic time."[78] Even when the Ottoman Empire carried on a new holy war of expansion in the seventeenth century, "the war was not universally pursued". They made no attempt to recover Spain or Sicily.[79][better source needed]

When the Ottoman Caliph called for a "Great Jihad" by all Muslims against Allied powers during World War I, there were hopes and fears that non-Turkish Muslims would side with Ottoman Turkey, but the appeal did not "[unite] the Muslim world",[78][80] and Muslims did not turn on their non-Muslim commanders in the Allied forces.[81] (The war led to the end of the caliphate as the Ottoman Empire entered on the side of the war's losers and surrendered by agreeing to "viciously punitive" conditions. These were overturned by the popular war hero Mustafa Kemal, who was also a secularist and later abolished the caliphate.[82])

Source
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Brian Ross
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Re: Are Jihad and Martyrdom in the Bible?
Reply #59 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 8:18pm
 
What these quotes from Wikipedia show is that Islam is indeed very open to interpretation - which of course depends upon the circumstance.  Isn't that what you're after, Soren?   Roll Eyes
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