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Folau vs Yassmin (Read 11469 times)
cods
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #375 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 6:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:56pm:
Aussie wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
[quote author=freediver link=1562056827/319#319 date=1563093666]The law forbids firing people for their religious views.


Which is subtly, but crucially different to firing for a) expressing those views and b) the medium in which they are expressed. If Folau's boss had asked him about what he thought about gays and Folau answered that he believed they were going to hell - then that is obviously very different to an unprompted broadcasting of that view on a platform viewed by millions.

You talk about a slippery slope, well how more slippery can you get when you make the broadcasting of any kind of hate speech - up to and including incitement of violence - a completely protected activity under the law - so long as it is done under the cover of "religious beliefs"?

So I think you are wrong - I don't believe the broadcasting of any sort of speech under the cover of "religious beliefs" has to be completely off limits to employers in their conditions of employment. The law will understand the nuance between holding a religious belief on the one hand, and how they go about broadcasting those beliefs on the other. Obviously no one would argue if a muslim was sacked by RA for posting "it is my sincere Islamic belief that all jews should be rounded up and gassed forthwith" to his millions of followers - nor would there be any argument when he is arrested for the same thing.




You cannot fire someone for their religious belief unless they make those beliefs known the others. The law would be meaningless if interpreted your way.


Here's what you are missing Effendi.

Employer:  Are you a Muslim?

Potential Employee:  Yes.

Employer:  No worries, I'll employ you.  Start Monday at $M4 over four years.  But.....Because of the high profile your employment by me gives you and an obvious connection with me because of that, you are required NOT to spruik your Mulsim views on social Media.  Do you agree?

Potential Employee:  Yes.

Do ya see, FD?


Do you still think people can sign away their right not to be raped in an employment contract?[/quote]



naughty fd.....

you do not give someone the right to rape you?...

that is something that is done TOO you...


where as YES

if you post your religious thoughts on social media  it is a conscious act  to do so

and if it is against a clause in a  contract you signed   then YES you have wilfully broken your contract.



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Karnal
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #376 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:46pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:22pm:
Karnal wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 10:48pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Does that mean he was not fired for his religious views John? In other words, are you telling a lie, or just giving us meaningless obfuscation?


Did you ban JS for his views, FD?

Or for disagreeing with yours?



not this time ... but it's still early   Roll Eyes


We'll ask FD.

FD, will you rule out banning JS for being a hideous spineless jellyfish with his own views that may or may not differ to yours?

A simple yes or no will suffice.


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Karnal
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #377 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:51pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:27pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
You cannot fire someone for their religious belief unless they make those beliefs known the others.



are you claiming RA didn't know of his religious beliefs?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


No, FD's saying he cannot be fired because he refuses to make his beliefs known to others.

Cunning, no?
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Karnal
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #378 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:53pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:29pm:
John Smith wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:27pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
You cannot fire someone for their religious belief unless they make those beliefs known the others.



are you claiming RA didn't know of his religious beliefs?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


No. If you are still confused, you should be able to figure out what we are talking about by reading the rest of the post.


And when you're banned, don't bother asking.

You should be able to figure out what sound a jellyfish makes.
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Karnal
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #379 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:56pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:58pm:
Aussie wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
The law forbids firing people for their religious views.


Which is subtly, but crucially different to firing for a) expressing those views and b) the medium in which they are expressed. If Folau's boss had asked him about what he thought about gays and Folau answered that he believed they were going to hell - then that is obviously very different to an unprompted broadcasting of that view on a platform viewed by millions.

You talk about a slippery slope, well how more slippery can you get when you make the broadcasting of any kind of hate speech - up to and including incitement of violence - a completely protected activity under the law - so long as it is done under the cover of "religious beliefs"?

So I think you are wrong - I don't believe the broadcasting of any sort of speech under the cover of "religious beliefs" has to be completely off limits to employers in their conditions of employment. The law will understand the nuance between holding a religious belief on the one hand, and how they go about broadcasting those beliefs on the other. Obviously no one would argue if a muslim was sacked by RA for posting "it is my sincere Islamic belief that all jews should be rounded up and gassed forthwith" to his millions of followers - nor would there be any argument when he is arrested for the same thing.




You cannot fire someone for their religious belief unless they make those beliefs known the others. The law would be meaningless if interpreted your way.


Here's what you are missing Effendi.

Employer:  Are you a Muslim?

Potential Employee:  Yes.

Employer:  No worries, I'll employ you.  Start Monday at $M4 over four years.  But.....Because of the high profile your employment by me gives you and an obvious connection with me because of that, you are required NOT to spruik your Mulsim views on social Media.  Do you agree?

Potential Employee:  Yes.

Do ya see, FD?

Are you kidding. The employer would be into trouble saying that. No workplace can demand that.


I haven't had - or applied for - a job in the past 12 years that didn't have a code of conduct for social media, on or off the job.

You?
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #380 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 11:35am:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 9:09pm:
John Smith wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 8:48pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Does that mean he was not fired for his religious views John? In other words, are you telling a lie, or just giving us meaningless obfuscation?


He was fired for breaching his code of conduct FD.

Do you need me to repeat it for you again?


Let me try to dumb it down for you. Was Folau fired for expressing his religious views?


No.


Well that's a surprise. I was expecting you to go with the meaningless obfuscation options rather than the blatant lie option. And it only took you a few pages to give a straight answer.

Is your reasoning that the technical appeal to the contract clause means he was not expressing his religious views?


My reasoning is that he wasn't fired for expressing his religious views.

Not really sure what part of that you don't understand.

If you believe he was, then simply provide a link to the statement from his employer saying that he was fired for expressing his religious views.

Over to you.
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #381 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 10:23pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
John Smith wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:22pm:
Karnal wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 10:48pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Does that mean he was not fired for his religious views John? In other words, are you telling a lie, or just giving us meaningless obfuscation?


Did you ban JS for his views, FD?

Or for disagreeing with yours?



not this time ... but it's still early   Roll Eyes


We'll ask FD.

FD, will you rule out banning JS for being a hideous spineless jellyfish with his own views that may or may not differ to yours?

A simple yes or no will suffice.




I'm afraid FDs position is a sinecure and is infra cure ..... he is not obliged to give his reasons for the short-term termination of someone with a long record of offence ...

"And this year's Academy Award for Lifetime Achievement in Sledging goes to.........."

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Raven
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #382 - Jul 17th, 2019 at 11:28pm
 
If we are going to use religious beliefs as the "trump card" in the Folau saga, an argument could be made that RA has a higher authority on their side.

Romans 13:1-3:

Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #383 - Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:45am
 
Karnal wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:58pm:
Aussie wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
The law forbids firing people for their religious views.


Which is subtly, but crucially different to firing for a) expressing those views and b) the medium in which they are expressed. If Folau's boss had asked him about what he thought about gays and Folau answered that he believed they were going to hell - then that is obviously very different to an unprompted broadcasting of that view on a platform viewed by millions.

You talk about a slippery slope, well how more slippery can you get when you make the broadcasting of any kind of hate speech - up to and including incitement of violence - a completely protected activity under the law - so long as it is done under the cover of "religious beliefs"?

So I think you are wrong - I don't believe the broadcasting of any sort of speech under the cover of "religious beliefs" has to be completely off limits to employers in their conditions of employment. The law will understand the nuance between holding a religious belief on the one hand, and how they go about broadcasting those beliefs on the other. Obviously no one would argue if a muslim was sacked by RA for posting "it is my sincere Islamic belief that all jews should be rounded up and gassed forthwith" to his millions of followers - nor would there be any argument when he is arrested for the same thing.




You cannot fire someone for their religious belief unless they make those beliefs known the others. The law would be meaningless if interpreted your way.


Here's what you are missing Effendi.

Employer:  Are you a Muslim?

Potential Employee:  Yes.

Employer:  No worries, I'll employ you.  Start Monday at $M4 over four years.  But.....Because of the high profile your employment by me gives you and an obvious connection with me because of that, you are required NOT to spruik your Mulsim views on social Media.  Do you agree?

Potential Employee:  Yes.

Do ya see, FD?

Are you kidding. The employer would be into trouble saying that. No workplace can demand that.


I haven't had - or applied for - a job in the past 12 years that didn't have a code of conduct for social media, on or off the job.

You?



So the real question is where should these conditions start and finish?  Second question is how should this kind of oversight of an employee's personal life be regulated and codified so as to prevent abuse?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #384 - Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:51am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:58pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 11:35am:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 9:09pm:
John Smith wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 8:48pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Does that mean he was not fired for his religious views John? In other words, are you telling a lie, or just giving us meaningless obfuscation?


He was fired for breaching his code of conduct FD.

Do you need me to repeat it for you again?


Let me try to dumb it down for you. Was Folau fired for expressing his religious views?


No.


Well that's a surprise. I was expecting you to go with the meaningless obfuscation options rather than the blatant lie option. And it only took you a few pages to give a straight answer.

Is your reasoning that the technical appeal to the contract clause means he was not expressing his religious views?


My reasoning is that he wasn't fired for expressing his religious views.

Not really sure what part of that you don't understand.

If you believe he was, then simply provide a link to the statement from his employer saying that he was fired for expressing his religious views.

Over to you.


That's like saying 'applications will be encouraged from Nepalese citizens' - meaning in reality you will only consider applications from Nepalese citizens...

Nah, nah - we didn't sack Israel for expressing his religious views.. we sacked him for expressing them and we are using a vague contract and verbal chicanery as an excuse..... we believe, in our all-inclusive manner, that there is room for all religious belief systems...and in the freedom to express them in your own time.... as long as you don;t express them in contravention of our vague contract.

So, greg... what part of religious beliefs do you find hard to follow?  Or are you saying that expression of personal religious views is an absolute right, but we can contract to abrogate that right by ordering you not to do so?

The reality is he's been sacked because the poofs are upset... big deal - tell 'em to swallow some cement... give 'em 50c and point them to a public phone....

Should be fun watching this case come out...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Karnal
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #385 - Jul 18th, 2019 at 12:42pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 10:23pm:
Karnal wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
John Smith wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:22pm:
Karnal wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 10:48pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Does that mean he was not fired for his religious views John? In other words, are you telling a lie, or just giving us meaningless obfuscation?


Did you ban JS for his views, FD?

Or for disagreeing with yours?



not this time ... but it's still early   Roll Eyes


We'll ask FD.

FD, will you rule out banning JS for being a hideous spineless jellyfish with his own views that may or may not differ to yours?

A simple yes or no will suffice.




I'm afraid FDs position is a sinecure and is infra cure ..... he is not obliged to give his reasons for the short-term termination of someone with a long record of offence ...

"And this year's Academy Award for Lifetime Achievement in Sledging goes to.........."



We're not talking about obligations, dear. We're talking about Freeeedom.

Besides, it would be polite to tell JS why he received a 6 month ban.

It's not an obligation, it's a courtesy.

You?
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John Smith
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #386 - Jul 18th, 2019 at 4:00pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 12:42pm:
We're not talking about obligations, dear. We're talking about Freeeedom.

Besides, it would be polite to tell JS why he received a 6
12
month ban.

It's not an obligation, it's a courtesy.

You?


fixed it for you K Wink
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Our esteemed leader:

I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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cods
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #387 - Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:56pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 4:00pm:
Karnal wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 12:42pm:
We're not talking about obligations, dear. We're talking about Freeeedom.

Besides, it would be polite to tell JS why he received a 6
12
month ban.

It's not an obligation, it's a courtesy.

You?


fixed it for you K Wink




not something to brag about I wouldnt think?.... Roll Eyes

js has no more freedom than folau  or you karnel for that matter....

I would bet even you have rules when someone comes into your house....and if they started breaking the place up you would quickly ask them to leave....

I know I would
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #388 - Jul 18th, 2019 at 10:00pm
 
cods wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
not something to brag about I wouldnt think?.... Roll Eyes



how is it bragging? Merely correcting the record.

cods wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
js has no more freedom than folau  or you karnel for that matter....


you are wrong. I am free to do and say whatever I like. Of course, I also haven't got a $4m contract restricting me. Cheesy Cheesy

cods wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
I would bet even you have rules when someone comes into your house....and if they started breaking the place up you would quickly ask them to leave....



of course. But I'm not the one crying about folaus freedom of speech being impeded. I think you should direct your comment to FD.
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Our esteemed leader:

I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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cods
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Re: Folau vs Yassmin
Reply #389 - Jul 18th, 2019 at 10:08pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 10:00pm:
cods wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
not something to brag about I wouldnt think?.... Roll Eyes



how is it bragging? Merely correcting the record.

cods wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
js has no more freedom than folau  or you karnel for that matter....


you are wrong. I am free to do and say whatever I like. Of course, I also haven't got a $4m contract restricting me. Cheesy Cheesy

cods wrote on Jul 18th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
I would bet even you have rules when someone comes into your house....and if they started breaking the place up you would quickly ask them to leave....



of course. But I'm not the one crying about folaus freedom of speech being impeded. I think you should direct your comment to FD.



making sure everyone knows it was a 12 month ban   and not 6 is not being shy!


is that why you were banned for 12 months?...


I am not crying about folau either.. in fact I believe he was wrong and deserved to be sacked...

to my mind a contract is a contract

dont sign it if you dont agree with it.
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