Australian Politics Forum - Does Australia need Nukes?

Bobby.

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #15 - Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 6:32pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 6:01pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 5:57pm:

So - do you know more than Professor Hugh White?

I know I know more than you, Bobby... Roll Eyes

Ye hath yet to rebut the claims I made:

We'd have to start from scratch -
we don't have any delivery vehicles such as ICBMs.
We don't have nuclear reactors to make all the plutonium we'd need.
We are already up to our necks in debt.
We could only pay for it with more debt.

Targets?
Our main capital cities would become targets not just Pine Gap.
The USSR has plenty of missiles to waste on us -
they have enough to destroy the world many times over.

Do we really want to see Melbourne & Sydney
turned into smoking ruins?

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Brian Ross

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #16 - Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:44pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 6:32pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 6:01pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 5:57pm:

So - do you know more than Professor Hugh White?

I know I know more than you, Bobby... Roll Eyes

Ye hath yet to rebut the claims I made:

We'd have to start from scratch -
we don't have any delivery vehicles such as ICBMs.
We don't have nuclear reactors to make all the plutonium we'd need.
We are already up to our necks in debt.
We could only pay for it with more debt.

Targets?
Our main capital cities would become targets not just Pine Gap.
The USSR has plenty of missiles to waste on us -
they have enough to destroy the world many times over.

Do we really want to see Melbourne & Sydney
turned into smoking ruins?

I have answered each of your points, Bobby. Reread what I have written in this thread (and numerous others). Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #17 - Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:55pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:44pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 6:32pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 6:01pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 5:57pm:

So - do you know more than Professor Hugh White?

I know I know more than you, Bobby... Roll Eyes

Ye hath yet to rebut the claims I made:

We'd have to start from scratch -
we don't have any delivery vehicles such as ICBMs.
We don't have nuclear reactors to make all the plutonium we'd need.
We are already up to our necks in debt.
We could only pay for it with more debt.

Targets?
Our main capital cities would become targets not just Pine Gap.
The USSR has plenty of missiles to waste on us -
they have enough to destroy the world many times over.

Do we really want to see Melbourne & Sydney
turned into smoking ruins?

I have answered each of your points, Bobby. Reread what I have written in this thread (and numerous others). Roll Eyes

No you didn't.

Another point.

We would lose our moral credibility when we support
sanctions for rogue nations like
North Korea and Iran, against their nuclear programs.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #18 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 3:02pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:55pm:

Another point.

We would lose our moral credibility when we support
sanctions for rogue nations like
North Korea and Iran, against their nuclear programs.

An interesting point, Bobby.

Back in the early 1960s, Australia was very critical of South African Apartheid. The South Africans hit back, pointing out the hypocrisy of the Australian Government with regards to its treatment of Indigenous Australians. The Australian Government was forced to accept that criticism. It was one of the reasons why the 1967 Referendum recognising Indigenous Australians went ahead.

Would our acquiring our own nukes mean we would no longer be able to criticise other, rogue nations outside the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Pact? I suspect so. We would be required to renounce our signature on the document at the very least. It was why we abandoned the quest for nuclear weapons in 1968 IIRC. Gorton was keen on our acquiring the bomb. McMahon less so. With the ousting of Gorton, McMahon instructed the Department of Foreign Affairs to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and for the CSIRO to cease it's research into acquiring a bomb.

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« Last Edit: Jul 4^th, 2019 at 4:25pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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PZ547 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9282 Gender:	Re: Does Australia need Nukes? Reply #19 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 4:07pm Quote: Do we really want to see Melbourne & Sydney turned into smoking ruins? don't we ?
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Bobby.

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #20 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:40pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 3:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:55pm:

Another point.

We would lose our moral credibility when we support
sanctions for rogue nations like
North Korea and Iran, against their nuclear programs.

An interesting point, Bobby.

Back in the early 1960s, Australia was very critical of South African Apartheid. The South Africans hit back, pointing out the hypocrisy of the Australian Government with regards to its treatment of Indigenous Australians. The Australian Government was forced to accept that criticism. It was one of the reasons why the 1967 Referendum recognising Indigenous Australians went ahead.

Would our acquiring our own nukes mean we would no longer be able to criticise other, rogue nations outside the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Pact? I suspect so. We would be required to renounce our signature on the document at the very least. It was why we abandoned the quest for nuclear weapons in 1968 IIRC. Gorton was keen on our acquiring the bomb. McMahon less so. With the ousting of Gorton, McMahon instructed the Department of Foreign Affairs to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and for the CSIRO to cease it's research into acquiring a bomb.

Not only that -
we don't have the technology:

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95485 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Does Australia need Nukes? Reply #21 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:41pm PZ547 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 4:07pm: Quote: Do we really want to see Melbourne & Sydney turned into smoking ruins? don't we ? No we don't and that's what would happen if Australia ever used a nuclear weapon against a power that also had them.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #22 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:48pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:40pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 3:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:55pm:

Another point.

We would lose our moral credibility when we support
sanctions for rogue nations like
North Korea and Iran, against their nuclear programs.

An interesting point, Bobby.

Back in the early 1960s, Australia was very critical of South African Apartheid. The South Africans hit back, pointing out the hypocrisy of the Australian Government with regards to its treatment of Indigenous Australians. The Australian Government was forced to accept that criticism. It was one of the reasons why the 1967 Referendum recognising Indigenous Australians went ahead.

Would our acquiring our own nukes mean we would no longer be able to criticise other, rogue nations outside the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Pact? I suspect so. We would be required to renounce our signature on the document at the very least. It was why we abandoned the quest for nuclear weapons in 1968 IIRC. Gorton was keen on our acquiring the bomb. McMahon less so. With the ousting of Gorton, McMahon instructed the Department of Foreign Affairs to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and for the CSIRO to cease it's research into acquiring a bomb.

Not only that -
we don't have the technology

We might not have the finer points of the art of bomb design but we do have access to the grosser points, Bobby. Australia has been a leading nation in Atomic research since it's inception. Sir Marcus Oliphant contributed to the creation of the first Atomic bomb and Uranium from Rum Jungle helped the British build theirs'. The ANU and the Snowy River scheme was originally created to further our quest for a bomb back in the late 1940s. When the British reneged on their promise to supply us with Atomic knowledge because the US said they would not share with them in case it leaked across to Australia - a nation the US considered at the time very vulnerable to Soviet espoinage, the original purposes for either tended to be forgotten and they became useful for other things... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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PZ547 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9282 Gender:	Re: Does Australia need Nukes? Reply #23 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:50pm The whole issue's a bit dodgy We can't have guns to protect ourselves in our homes when imported gangsters crash in with their guns and baseball bats but temporary politicians, paid by us, can have nukes ? No. Don't like it
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Bobby.

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #24 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:02pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:40pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 3:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:55pm:

Another point.

We would lose our moral credibility when we support
sanctions for rogue nations like
North Korea and Iran, against their nuclear programs.

An interesting point, Bobby.

Back in the early 1960s, Australia was very critical of South African Apartheid. The South Africans hit back, pointing out the hypocrisy of the Australian Government with regards to its treatment of Indigenous Australians. The Australian Government was forced to accept that criticism. It was one of the reasons why the 1967 Referendum recognising Indigenous Australians went ahead.

Would our acquiring our own nukes mean we would no longer be able to criticise other, rogue nations outside the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Pact? I suspect so. We would be required to renounce our signature on the document at the very least. It was why we abandoned the quest for nuclear weapons in 1968 IIRC. Gorton was keen on our acquiring the bomb. McMahon less so. With the ousting of Gorton, McMahon instructed the Department of Foreign Affairs to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and for the CSIRO to cease it's research into acquiring a bomb.

Not only that -
we don't have the technology

We might not have the finer points of the art of bomb design but we do have access to the grosser points, Bobby. Australia has been a leading nation in Atomic research since it's inception. Sir Marcus Oliphant contributed to the creation of the first Atomic bomb and Uranium from Rum Jungle helped the British build theirs'. The ANU and the Snowy River scheme was originally created to further our quest for a bomb back in the late 1940s. When the British reneged on their promise to supply us with Atomic knowledge because the US said they would not share with them in case it leaked across to Australia - a nation the US considered at the time very vulnerable to Soviet espionage, the original purposes for either tended to be forgotten and they became useful for other things... Roll Eyes

Dear Brian,
May I suggest you watch the 2 videos as there are
so many classified technical fine points that
obviously the learned presenter doesn't know -
and he admits it -
I can see we'd be 15 years to 40 years behind.

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Bobby.

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #25 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:05pm

PZ547 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:50pm:

The whole issue's a bit dodgy

We can't have guns to protect ourselves in our homes when imported gangsters crash in with their guns and baseball bats

but temporary politicians, paid by us, can have nukes ?

No. Don't like it

I just think that nuclear weapons are unusable.
The only time they were ever used in war was when the other side -
actually no one else - had them.

Now there are too many countries with them, even
that little rocket man in North Korea has many.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #26 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:31pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:40pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 3:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 7:55pm:

Another point.

We would lose our moral credibility when we support
sanctions for rogue nations like
North Korea and Iran, against their nuclear programs.

An interesting point, Bobby.

Back in the early 1960s, Australia was very critical of South African Apartheid. The South Africans hit back, pointing out the hypocrisy of the Australian Government with regards to its treatment of Indigenous Australians. The Australian Government was forced to accept that criticism. It was one of the reasons why the 1967 Referendum recognising Indigenous Australians went ahead.

Would our acquiring our own nukes mean we would no longer be able to criticise other, rogue nations outside the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Pact? I suspect so. We would be required to renounce our signature on the document at the very least. It was why we abandoned the quest for nuclear weapons in 1968 IIRC. Gorton was keen on our acquiring the bomb. McMahon less so. With the ousting of Gorton, McMahon instructed the Department of Foreign Affairs to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and for the CSIRO to cease it's research into acquiring a bomb.

Not only that -
we don't have the technology

We might not have the finer points of the art of bomb design but we do have access to the grosser points, Bobby. Australia has been a leading nation in Atomic research since it's inception. Sir Marcus Oliphant contributed to the creation of the first Atomic bomb and Uranium from Rum Jungle helped the British build theirs'. The ANU and the Snowy River scheme was originally created to further our quest for a bomb back in the late 1940s. When the British reneged on their promise to supply us with Atomic knowledge because the US said they would not share with them in case it leaked across to Australia - a nation the US considered at the time very vulnerable to Soviet espionage, the original purposes for either tended to be forgotten and they became useful for other things... Roll Eyes

Dear Brian,
May I suggest you watch the 2 videos as there are
so many classified technical fine points that
obviously the learned presenter doesn't know -
and he admits it -
I can see we'd be 15 years to 40 years behind.

Bobby, Bobby, even I could design a working Atomic bomb. It isn't rocket science. Of course, it would be a simplistic "gun type" bomb, not a you beaut implosion kind. That would take a little longer, I am willing to admit.

Now, if you want a Hydrogen bomb, that might take a lot longer and a bit more research but I think I could build one without too many difficulties.

Of course I'd need to experiment a few times to make sure I've got the details right... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #27 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:40pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

Bobby, Bobby, even I could design a working Atomic bomb. It isn't rocket science. Of course, it would be a simplistic "gun type" bomb, not a you beaut implosion kind. That would take a little longer, I am willing to admit.

Now, if you want a Hydrogen bomb, that might take a lot longer and a bit more research but I think I could build one without too many difficulties.

Of course I'd need to experiment a few times to make sure I've got the details right... Roll Eyes

No one would use a gun type bomb.
It requires a huge amount of U235.
Look at North Korea - their first bombs were all fizzers - hardly any yield.
That's because it's not simple to design
even for top nuclear scientists.

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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: Does Australia need Nukes? Reply #28 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:46pm Brian couldn't even build a fart bomb let alone a nuke.
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Captain Nemo

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Re: Does Australia need Nukes?
Reply #29 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:46pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 3:53pm:

whiteknight wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 8:10am:

Mr White wheres the money coming from?. Sad

I would suggest it would come at the expense of higher taxes and fewer conventional weapons.

The main problem with nuclear weapons is that they induce a false sense of security. They are weapons of last resort and so you cannot really, sensibly use them unless you are facing an existential confrontation or attack. This means that you cannot use them to defend your nation or national interests against conventional attack. You would be over-reacting and face worldwide condemnation for doing so, unless you were facing imminent defeat.

Then, there is the danger of the first use syndrome. If you are faced by a nation with ICBMs, you fear you must use your own nuclear weapons before they are destroyed in a mythical first strike scenario. If your forces are caught on the ground and destroyed, they are wasted. This means that you are urged to mount your own first strike to prevent being caught unawares. This results in increased tension and of course the danger that you will launch by mistake.

Nuclear weapons brings with them a whole raft of military and political problems which Australia does not need. We lack at the moment nuclear technicians and engineers. In the mid-1960s, it was determined we were about 18 months-2 years away from building our own bomb. Today, we are no long producing, except a handful of nuclear technicians and engineers for our two nuclear reactors at Lucas Heights. We would need hundreds of both to build a bomb successfully and in sufficient numbers to make a difference to our strategic situation. We lack rocket engineers and technicians of any number, which we would need for the manufacture and maintenance of missiles of any kind. We are now, I believe about 10-15 years away from building a bomb. You simply cannot declare "we will build a bomb" and have one magically appear overnight. It took Pakistan about 15 years plus to build theirs from scratch and about 15 years for the North Koreans to do the same.

Very good points.

Well done sir!

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The 2025 election could be a shocker.

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