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freedom from religion (Read 10797 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #195 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 4:19pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 4:06pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 11:06am:
Auggie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:00am:
An employer can have a code of conduct and expect their employees to abide by that code of conduct.


Especially if said employer has that code of conduct specified in a clause in the contract that the employee signed.



in another thread FD all but agreed that if an employee cost his business customers he'd be within his rights to sack him.

I don't even know why he's still going on about free speech. He obviously doesn't agree with the concept and yet here he is carrying on about it.


From what I can gather, FD is not really disputing RA's right to dictate the terms of their contracts to their employees - but is more whinging about the 'homofascists' celebrating the sacking and having the outrageous view that its right and proper to protect people from religious bigotry.

Come to think of it, I can't really see how freedom of speech comes into this at all. Folau gets his say, RA get to fire him for it - as it breaches his contract (a point that not even FD disputes), and 'homofascists' get to say how marvelous it was that he was sacked. And finally FD gets to say how outrageous the homofascists are.

In the end free speech comes out the winner.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #196 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 5:16pm
 
There is only one relevant point.  That is whether RA went too far (an illegality) in imposing that condition in its Code of Conduct and or Contract.

I say it is well within requirements. It does not require 'thou shalt not be a poof or thou shalt not be a religious fanatic etc etc.'  It simply says 'in your public utterances and conduct at all times show tolerance in such a way as does not bring RA into disrepute or embarrass its sponsors.'

Simple example......I have a vacancy in the Cab for a driver.  Bloke comes along...tells me he hates poofs thieves adulterers etc etc.  I say bugger off.  He could have a go at me for some sort of discrimination.  If I say, "Okay...I don't care, but when you are driving my Cab or if you become closely and notoriously associated with me and my Cab in the public domain, do not in that public domain express those views."  He says...'Okay.'

If he breaches that condition.....bye bye.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #197 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 5:54pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 5:16pm:
There is only one relevant point.  That is whether RA went too far (an illegality) in imposing that condition in its Code of Conduct and or Contract.

I say it is well within requirements. It does not require 'thou shalt not be a poof or thou shalt not be a religious fanatic etc etc.'  It simply says 'in your public utterances and conduct at all times show tolerance in such a way as does not bring RA into disrepute or embarrass its sponsors.'

Simple example......I have a vacancy in the Cab for a driver.  Bloke comes along...tells me he hates poofs thieves adulterers etc etc.  I say bugger off.  He could have a go at me for some sort of discrimination.  If I say, "Okay...I don't care, but when you are driving my Cab or if you become closely and notoriously associated with me and my Cab in the public domain, do not in that public domain express those views."  He says...'Okay.'

If he breaches that condition.....bye bye.


He was sacked for saying sinners will go to hell....If he had not specifically named homosexuals in his Facebook post there would be no outrage....A piss poor self defeating reason to sack someone from their career IMO....Believe it but don't say it is bullshit!!!

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #198 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 6:43pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 5:16pm:
There is only one relevant point.  That is whether RA went too far (an illegality) in imposing that condition in its Code of Conduct and or Contract.

I say it is well within requirements. It does not require 'thou shalt not be a poof or thou shalt not be a religious fanatic etc etc.'  It simply says 'in your public utterances and conduct at all times show tolerance in such a way as does not bring RA into disrepute or embarrass its sponsors.'

Simple example......I have a vacancy in the Cab for a driver.  Bloke comes along...tells me he hates poofs thieves adulterers etc etc.  I say bugger off.  He could have a go at me for some sort of discrimination.  If I say, "Okay...I don't care, but when you are driving my Cab or if you become closely and notoriously associated with me and my Cab in the public domain, do not in that public domain express those views."  He says...'Okay.'

If he breaches that condition.....bye bye.


Well said.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #199 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:32pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 2:06pm:
It's like filling out the appropriate paperwork to give yourself permission to rape someone.


Its nothing like that - unless you are seriously suggesting not being able to smear gays as sinners who need to repent is morally equivalent to being allowed to rape someone.


That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views. Again, this is a grey, emerging legal area. A church for example is allowed to only hire Christians. They have some kind of exemption, but it would not apply to church-run hospitals. But Folau is a football player.

Quote:
And what is wrong with an employer insisting that an employee is not allowed to smear jews as a mindless collective on social media?


I was hoping you could tell me that Gandalf.

Quote:
Why do you insist that Folau has some God-given right to be employed by RA?


His right comes from his football skills. His football skills were not considered in terminating his job as a football player. It was entirely based on him expressing his religious views, which had nothing to do with his job.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #200 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:35pm
 
Freediver:

Quote:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


Both statements are correct....and also irrelevant to Folau.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #201 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:39pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:35pm:
Freediver:

Quote:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


Both statements are correct....and also irrelevant to Folau.


This is an example of a homofascist misrepresenting the situation by pretending that once you put the clause into the contract it ceases to be about his religious views.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #202 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:39pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:35pm:
Freediver:

Quote:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


Both statements are correct....and also irrelevant to Folau.


So...Effendi.......If I right into that Contract:

You agree, in signing this document, that you irrevocably (unless done on notice and in writing) consent to me having sexual intercourse with you.


'You' accept.

Where to from here?
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #203 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:49pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:39pm:
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:35pm:
Freediver:

Quote:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


Both statements are correct....and also irrelevant to Folau.


So...Effendi.......If I right into that Contract:

You agree, in signing this document, that you irrevocably (unless done on notice and in writing) consent to me having sexual intercourse with you.


'You' accept.

Where to from here?


It's still rape if I say no Aussie. In your long and illustrious career as a lawyer, did you ever stumble across the term 'inalienable right'?
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #204 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:54pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:39pm:
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:35pm:
Freediver:

Quote:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


Both statements are correct....and also irrelevant to Folau.


So...Effendi.......If I right into that Contract:

You agree, in signing this document, that you irrevocably (unless done on notice and in writing) consent to me having sexual intercourse with you.


'You' accept.

Where to from here?


I would find a solicitor who can spell...
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #205 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:49pm:
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:39pm:
Aussie wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:35pm:
Freediver:

Quote:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


Both statements are correct....and also irrelevant to Folau.


So...Effendi.......If I right into that Contract:

You agree, in signing this document, that you irrevocably (unless done on notice and in writing) consent to me having sexual intercourse with you.


'You' accept.

Where to from here?


It's still rape if I say no Aussie. In your long and illustrious career as a lawyer, did you ever stumble across the term 'inalienable right'?


Not once.

You cannot say 'No.'  You had eyes wide open when you signed up...no-one had a gun at your head.  You willingly agreed.  If you did not wish to do so.....you walk away.  While you are in my employ and unless you have revoked your consent as required....you have agreed to become an active sexual partner with me. (Caveat......all of you and me are to be read with quotation marks around them.)
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #206 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:32pm:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


For a start it is not the "same (legal) sense" - as you are comparing a "right" to do something with a stipulation that you cannot do something. Its apples and oranges. Plus the fact that rape is illegal anyway, and obviously no organisation is able to put a clause in a contract saying their employees can do it. Not vilifying people on the basis of sexual orientation, on the other hand, is not illegal - funnily enough. So your comparison is absurd.

And whether or not an organisation is allowed to specifically put in their contract that someone must not express their religious views, the point is RA didn't do that, as they didn't need to. Their clause was the perfectly reasonable (to the standards of our society) stipulation that he must be respectful of all people equally in their public statements - regardless of sexual orientation. That this happened to conflict with Folau's actual religious views isn't really RA's problem, and it doesn't mean they are persecuting Folau for his religion. Otherwise where do you draw the line? Do you have to give allowances to nazis who claim that calling for jews to be burned in ovens is a legitimate expression of their "religious views"?

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:32pm:
His right comes from his football skills. His football skills were not considered in terminating his job as a football player. It was entirely based on him expressing his religious views, which had nothing to do with his job.


100% wrong. As an international football player and a role model, he has a moral responsibility and obligation to uphold accepted community standards. Also it absolutely is part of the job description - and I can show you the contract to prove it.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #207 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:13pm
 
I can''t believe I have to explain this concept to someone who claims to be a lawyer.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #208 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:15pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:13pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:32pm:
That's the legal point I am making. You cannot write into your contract a right to rape your employee in the same (legal) sense that you cannot write into your contract a right to fire someone for their religion views.


For a start it is not the "same (legal) sense" - as you are comparing a "right" to do something with a stipulation that you cannot do something. Its apples and oranges. Plus the fact that rape is illegal anyway, and obviously no organisation is able to put a clause in a contract saying their employees can do it. Not vilifying people on the basis of sexual orientation, on the other hand, is not illegal - funnily enough. So your comparison is absurd.

And whether or not an organisation is allowed to specifically put in their contract that someone must not express their religious views, the point is RA didn't do that, as they didn't need to. Their clause was the perfectly reasonable (to the standards of our society) stipulation that he must be respectful of all people equally in their public statements - regardless of sexual orientation. That this happened to conflict with Folau's actual religious views isn't really RA's problem, and it doesn't mean they are persecuting Folau for his religion. Otherwise where do you draw the line? Do you have to give allowances to nazis who claim that calling for jews to be burned in ovens is a legitimate expression of their "religious views"?

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:32pm:
His right comes from his football skills. His football skills were not considered in terminating his job as a football player. It was entirely based on him expressing his religious views, which had nothing to do with his job.


100% wrong. As an international football player and a role model, he has a moral responsibility and obligation to uphold accepted community standards. Also it absolutely is part of the job description - and I can show you the contract to prove it.


They took a reasonable, albeit vague clause and interpreted it in an illegal way - by firing Folau for his religious views.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #209 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:18pm
 
I seriously doubt it was interpreted "illegally" FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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