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freedom from religion (Read 10810 times)
freediver
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freedom from religion
Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:19am
 
This concept keeps popping up in various forms from different people, disturbingly often. They are effectively trying to redefine freedom of speech as freedom from having to hear opinions you don't like.

I see this as part of a broader trend where our society has broken free from the yoke of various forms of theocracy that existed in the past, but people want to keep kicking this dead horse and turn it into an extremist movement where religion is discriminated against in any form. For example, you often see people suggest that children should be protected from their parent's religion. Or you see efforts to use Islam to attack all other religions, based on a refusal to acknowledge how Islam differs from other religions. Rather than celebrating the free exchange of ideas our society has, they are stuck in a war against religion in which that freedom must be sacrificed for some more important goal.

So we have this absurd situation where people are reluctant to make an issue of gays being thrown of tall buildings, but those same people speak up in support of Israel Folau being fired over what is a mere opinion that does no demonstrable harm.

cods wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 8:43am:
WE CANT HAVE A BET EACH WAY  WE GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO GET MARRIED...WE CANNOT SERIOUSLY CALL THEM SINNERS.


Raven wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 10:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 9:28pm:
Raven wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 9:25pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
Quote:
Should Folau's right to freedom of religion trump others right to freedom from religion?


Of course. What imbecile would suggest otherwise?


So you think a person who is religious should have more rights then a person who is not?


No. I assumed when you said freedom from religion you meant something idiotic like freedom from other people's opinions.


Well we all know what assumption is the mother of.

Falou has the right to his religious beliefs. By the same token other people have the right to not be subjected to those beliefs.


freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 7:06pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 12:20pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 12:15pm:
I have not misrepresented any of the facts. Not being a spineless apologist for this attack on freedom of speech is not the same as misrepresenting the facts.

Nemo, is your earlier cartoon trying to imply that Folau is stepping on freedom of expression?


Using the "freedom of expression" notion to present views that hurt other groups, yes.




So in the twisted mind of the homofascism apologist, putting your lucrative job at risk by standing up for your principles and speaking your mind is actually going after the money and trampling freedom of expression?

Do you think freedom of expression only covers those forms of expression that no-one can claim butthurt over?


cods wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 10:43am:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 10:35am:
Quote:
do you think someone who calls himself a Christian has the right to claim who he believes will go to HELL.....


Of course they have that right cods.

Do you think they don't?




no I dont think that!  he is a high profile athlete 

if he can INSULT whoever he chooses   then we all can in public..

we are talking about our society and how  it should behave! WE ALL should behave..

as RU said THIS IS BIGGER THAN ISRAEL....

this is about saying what you think about other groups in cyberspace......if there is no control.... can you imagine what will happen??????

this imo

is like removing the traffic lights.....

they are a RULING that prevents chaos..

it wont work without them.



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freediver
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #1 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:34am
 
A more spineless version of the same thing:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:30am:
Ajax wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:28am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:24am:
Ajax wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:22am:
I don’t really care what Israel Falau believes in, what I do care about is that he is not allowed to express his opinion.


Yes he is.



No he's not, it cost him his job.



Yes, he is.

Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences.

Nobody is stopping him from expressing his opinion.


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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #2 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:36am
 
Religion is not compulsory in Australia therefore we do have freedom from religion.

Some like to use Indonesia as an example of moderate Islam where atheists suffer discrimination which is moderate considering sunni Islam chops your head off for atheism in Saudi Arabia and shia Islam in Iran started hanging atheists after the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Quote:
Irreligion in Indonesia


Atheism, or Irreligion in Indonesia, is uncommon among the country's inhabitants, as there is a great stigma attached to being an atheist in Indonesia and is widely condemned by the Indonesian people.

Society[edit]
It is difficult to quantify the number of atheists or agnostics in Indonesia as they are not officially counted in the census of the country.[1] Indonesian atheists, such as those belonging to the Indonesian Atheists organization, predominantly communicate with each other solely via the Internet.[2] According to Human Rights Watch, tolerance towards atheists among the general Indonesian public is growing, but they are still subject to violence by "largely militant Islamists."

Atheists are subject to discrimination in Indonesia, seeing as irreligion violates the first principle of Pancasila (the Indonesian constitution).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Indonesia


I have no problem with anything Izzy posted it's amusing how those who are criticial of him are silent on the Islamic death penalty for homosexuals and throw the slur Islamophobe at anyone who tries to criticise Islam
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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cods
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #3 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:49am
 
neither do I baron  although fd seems to think I do have a problem.....as far as I can tell I DIDNT MAKE HIS LIST

how about you FD   ARE YOU A SINNER according to Israel?.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

come on fess up!..

what makes you believe GOD would send these fine people to HELL.....because they have human faults..... Angry Angry


what makes you believe that is what RELIGION is all about?......

you are saying  that if someone like Israel accepts Ivan Milat seeking god blessing  Roll Eyes  then god will allow him into heaven

but not a gay minister who has only ever helped his fellow man and doesnt see himself as a sinner..... Angry Angry


come on that is not RELIGION...as you say its ISRAELS  opinion of what is written in the Bible...
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #4 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:08am
 
You are missing the point cods. It does not matter whether you think it is proper religion or not. I pointed out it is merely his opinion to show that he did no demonstrable harm.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #5 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:47am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:19am:
So we have this absurd situation where people are reluctant to make an issue of gays being thrown of tall buildings, but those same people speak up in support of Israel Folau being fired over what is a mere opinion that does no demonstrable harm.



False equivalence.

First of all there is plenty criticism of persecution of gays. You only need to look at the recent example of Brunei which backed down from implementing the death penalty for gays due to international criticism.

Secondly Falau was sacked for breach of contract. Something that could happen to any one of us if we posted on social media posts which our employers found objectionable
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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.
 
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #6 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:50am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:47am:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:19am:
So we have this absurd situation where people are reluctant to make an issue of gays being thrown of tall buildings, but those same people speak up in support of Israel Folau being fired over what is a mere opinion that does no demonstrable harm.



False equivalence.

First of all there is plenty criticism of persecution of gays. You only need to look at the recent example of Brunei which backed down from implementing the death penalty for gays due to international criticism.

Secondly Falau was sacked for breach of contract. Something that could happen to any one of us if we posted on social media posts which our employers found objectionable


I did not claim that throwing gays off tall buildings was the same as expressing your religious views. That's the point I was making.

If you got fired for posting on facebook that gays don't go to hell, would you be so quick to defend your boss's actions on a technicality?
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #7 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:15am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:50am:
If you got fired for posting on facebook that gays don't go to hell, would you be so quick to defend your boss's actions on a technicality?


That would depend what is in my employment contract.
The fact is that it's not a "technicality". Falou was repeatedly warned that his social media behaviour was unacceptable but he chose to ignore hos employers directives

Quote:
“Following the events of last year, Israel was warned formally and repeatedly about the expectations of him as player for the Wallabies and NSW Waratahs with regards to social media use and he has failed to meet those obligations. It was made clear to him that any social media posts or commentary that is in any way disrespectful to people because of their sexuality will result in disciplinary action.
https://australia.rugby/news/2019/04/15/israel-folau-issued-breach-notice


So it is clear that he is free to post what ever he wants about his religion as long as it doesn't breach his employment contract
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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.
 
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #8 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:27am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:15am:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:50am:
If you got fired for posting on facebook that gays don't go to hell, would you be so quick to defend your boss's actions on a technicality?


That would depend what is in my employment contract.
The fact is that it's not a "technicality". Falou was repeatedly warned that his social media behaviour was unacceptable but he chose to ignore hos employers directives

Quote:
“Following the events of last year, Israel was warned formally and repeatedly about the expectations of him as player for the Wallabies and NSW Waratahs with regards to social media use and he has failed to meet those obligations. It was made clear to him that any social media posts or commentary that is in any way disrespectful to people because of their sexuality will result in disciplinary action.
https://australia.rugby/news/2019/04/15/israel-folau-issued-breach-notice


So it is clear that he is free to post what ever he wants about his religion as long as it doesn't breach his employment contract


So if your contract had some vague clause about respecting other people's religious beliefs, you would support your boss firing you for saying that gays don't go to hell?
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #9 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:28am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:19am:
They are effectively trying to redefine freedom of speech as freedom from having to hear opinions you don't like.



no they're not. Here you go again, pretending they said something they didn't.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #10 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:29am
 
I quoted them John.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #11 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:30am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:27am:
So if your contract had some vague clause about respecting other people's religious beliefs, you would support your boss firing you for saying that gays don't go to hell?



vague? there was nothing vague in Folaus contract. They were very clear on what he wasn't supposed to post.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #12 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:30am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:29am:
I quoted them John.


and none of their quotes say what you claim they said.
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freediver
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #13 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:31am
 
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:30am:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:27am:
So if your contract had some vague clause about respecting other people's religious beliefs, you would support your boss firing you for saying that gays don't go to hell?



vague? there was nothing vague in Folaus contract. They were very clear on what he wasn't supposed to post.


Can you quote the relevant part?

Quote:
and none of their quotes say what you claim they said


You are confused again John. What did I claim they said?
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #14 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:32am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:08am:
You are missing the point cods. It does not matter whether you think it is proper religion or not. I pointed out it is merely his opinion to show that he did no demonstrable harm.


Folau lost his job because of a comment he made. Do I think he should be thrown in jail? No.

However, if a private company or individual chooses to fire a person because they hold values repugnant to that organisation, then that's acceptable.

Folau has the right to offend, and I have the right to be offended.
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