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Quranic createdness (Read 14685 times)
Auggie
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Quranic createdness
Jun 29th, 2019 at 1:55pm
 
Createdness refers to the doctrinal position that the Qur’an was created, rather than having always existed and thus being "uncreated". In the Muslim world the opposite point of view — that the Quran is uncreated — has been unchallenged among the majority Sunni Muslims for many centuries, while minority sects Shia Twelvers and Zaydi, and the Kharijites believe the Quran is created.[1] Sufi philosophers view the question as artificial or wrongly framed.[2][need quotation to verify]

The dispute over which was true became a significant point of contention in early Islam. The Islamic rationalist philosophical school known as the Mu'tazila held that if the Quran is God's word, logically God "must have preceded his own speech".[3] The Qur'an, of course, expresses God's eternal will, but the work itself must have been created by Him at some point in time.[4]

Traditionists, on the other hand, held that numerous records of the supposed words, actions, or silent approval of Muhammad (aḥādīth) support the contention that as God's speech, the Qur’an is an attribute of God and therefore "uncreated".[5]
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #1 - Jun 29th, 2019 at 2:35pm
 
muhammad definitely saw allahs' three daughters in the big bordello in the sky.(who can doubt what he saw?)
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #2 - Jun 29th, 2019 at 5:46pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 1:55pm:
Createdness refers to the doctrinal position that the Qur’an was created, rather than having always existed and thus being "uncreated". In the Muslim world the opposite point of view — that the Quran is uncreated — has been unchallenged among the majority Sunni Muslims for many centuries, while minority sects Shia Twelvers and Zaydi, and the Kharijites believe the Quran is created.[1] Sufi philosophers view the question as artificial or wrongly framed.[2][need quotation to verify]

The dispute over which was true became a significant point of contention in early Islam. The Islamic rationalist philosophical school known as the Mu'tazila held that if the Quran is God's word, logically God "must have preceded his own speech".[3] The Qur'an, of course, expresses God's eternal will, but the work itself must have been created by Him at some point in time.[4]

Traditionists, on the other hand, held that numerous records of the supposed words, actions, or silent approval of Muhammad (aḥādīth) support the contention that as God's speech, the Qur’an is an attribute of God and therefore "uncreated".[5]



The sane, on the other hand, realise that the Koran was put together from the gathered fragments that were known to various people and organised - a particularly obviously non-divine structural quirk - in order of the lengths of its component sections.  It is, as a consequence, not unlike the Chinese (ahem) Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge, a record of the folly and fetish of the illiterate potentates who produced and authorised it.



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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #3 - Jun 29th, 2019 at 7:49pm
 
Frank wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 5:46pm:
The sane, on the other hand, realise that the Koran was put together from the gathered fragments that were known to various people and organised - a particularly obviously non-divine structural quirk - in order of the lengths of its component sections.  It is, as a consequence, not unlike the Chinese (ahem) Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge, a record of the folly and fetish of the illiterate potentates who produced and authorised it.


Christianities' Bible is no different, Soren.  It was created from fragments written between 75 and 150 years after the supposed death of the man known as Jesus.   It was then edited down the centuries.

Quote:
14 February 2017 Vatican City

Speaking to a delegation of Jewish Leaders at the vatican on Thursday Pope Francis revealed he has instructed the Vatican Secret Archives to unseal the set of ancient scrolls that had been kept hidden from the public knowledge for centuries by the Roman Catholic Church. The Scrolls which were encased in marble and buried in 463AD are said to contain the true name of God as communicated to Moses in the Book Of Exodus.Pope Hilarius issued a decree striking any mention of YAHWEH’s name from official Church literature

The Pope told an audience during an event celebrating a new version of the Torah that his decision is upend 1500 years of secrecy was driven in part by a need for “greater transparency’ within the Catholic Church. “It is a scandal to say one thing and do another “ declared Pope Francis before adding that the Church is “leading a double life” by continuing to keep God’s name secret.

A source inside of the Vatican Secret Archives told Sky News that the Church first became aware of the Scrolls existence in the fifth century. “ The Scrolls were uncovered by the Romans during the siege of Jerusalem and the subsequent destruction of the temple in 70AD. Nearly four centuries came to pass before Rome would hand over the control of the Scrolls to the Church in 463AD” the source explained. “Upon inspection, Pope Hilarius issued a decree striking any mention of YAHWEH’s name from official Church literature”.

The name Jesus is not even a transliteration. It is a corruption of the transliteration of the Hebrew word which had the MIGHTY & POWERFUL Name of Yahweh removed from its original meaning.

The theological Dictionary of the NT, Kittel & Bromiley, Vol 13 page 284 tells us that the name Jesus (Iesous) is a Greek form of the Hebrew Proper Name Yahshua. Keep in mind, however, that this name Jesus carries NONE of the meaning of the original Hebrew Name Yahshua, which means Yahweh is Salvation.

In fact, on page 290, this same word not only tells us that the name “Jesus” fails to connvey any of the glory of Yahweh (which is contained in the name of Yahshua), but also that it is actually the masculine form of the name of a pagan Goddess.

Thus only further evidence of the literary license which the established Christian religion, led by the RCC, have taken with the Scriptures. It should be pointed out, that they have done this without authority of our Heavenly Father who said “ Do not add or take away from this word I have given you”.

Most shocking of all the RCC herself admits to the forgery of the Holy Scriptures. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 6, page 136 gives us this admission “substitute of false documents and tampering with genuine ones was quite a trade in the Middle Ages. Innocent III (1198) points out nine species of forgery (of ecclesiastical records) which had come under his notice.

But such frauds of the Church were not confined to the Middle Ages; they began even with the beginning of the Church and infest every period of its history for 1500 years and defile nearly every document of both Scriptures.

They removed the LAWS, FEAST DAYS, SABBATH. Changed the 10 COMMANDMENTS, CALENDAR FROM LUNAR TO SOLAR, the TRINITY (pagan) and much more.

The Rock is YAHSHUA

The evidence from the Holy Scriptures is so clear that even Pope John Paul II, in his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, has found it necessary to admit that YAHSHUA is the ROCK which YAHWEH’S CHURCH is built. That this is another of many contradictory pronouncements of the Roman Catholic Church.

By claiming that Peter is the rock, the Pope denied that YAHSHUA is the Rock, which is essentially a denial that YAHSHUA is the MESSIAH.

[Source]

In the 4th century CE, the Church held two Papal conferences at Nicaea.  After those Papal conferences, certain aspects of Christianity were created.  This became known as the Nicene Creed. 

[continued]
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #4 - Jun 29th, 2019 at 7:56pm
 
[continued]

Quote:
The purpose of a creed is to provide a doctrinal statement of correct belief or orthodoxy. The creeds of Christianity have been drawn up at times of conflict about doctrine: acceptance or rejection of a creed served to distinguish believers and deniers of particular doctrines. For that reason, a creed was called in Greek a σύμβολον (symbolon), which originally meant half of a broken object which, when fitted to the other half, verified the bearer's identity.[9] The Greek word passed through Latin symbolum into English "symbol", which only later took on the meaning of an outward sign of something.[10]

The Nicene Creed was adopted to resolve the Arian controversy, whose leader, Arius, a clergyman of Alexandria, "objected to Alexander's (the bishop of the time) apparent carelessness in blurring the distinction of nature between the Father and the Son by his emphasis on eternal generation".[11] In reply, Alexander accused Arius of denying the divinity of the Son and also of being too "Jewish" and "Greek" in his thought. Alexander and his supporters created the Nicene Creed to clarify the key tenets of the Christian faith in response to the widespread adoption of Arius' doctrine, which was henceforth marked as heresy.

The Nicene Creed of 325 explicitly affirms the co-essential divinity of the Son, applying to him the term "consubstantial". The 381 version speaks of the Holy Spirit as worshipped and glorified with the Father and the Son. The later Athanasian Creed (not used in Eastern Christianity) describes in much greater detail the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The earlier Apostles' Creed does not explicitly affirm the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit, but in the view of many who use it, this doctrine is implicit in it.

[Source]

Christianity, like all religions wasn't created, it grew, Soren.  Just as Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc. did.  What Christians profess today is a consequence of editing and careful consideration of what Christ supposedly said.   Roll Eyes


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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #5 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 11:28am
 
The Ibadis believe the Quran was created, which would explain why they are more tolerant of different religions and of different sects of Islam.

When you believe the Quran is created then it allows you put it in the context it was written in (or revealed).
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #6 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 10:18pm
 
If you accept Mohammed you are not the full quid. But while you are here, let me interest you in various gold watches, harbour bridges and opera houses for sale as well. Ring 666.


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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #7 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 11:23pm
 


Quote:

The sane, on the other hand, realise that the Koran was put together from the gathered fragments that were known to various people and organised - a particularly obviously non-divine structural quirk - in order of the lengths of its component sections......






After the oldest known fragments of the Koran were discovered, in the 1970's, in a local mosque, in Sanna, Yemen,
a German ISLAMIC scholar was invited to do preservation work, on those fragments of the Koran.....



Quote:

In 1972, construction workers renovating a wall in the attic of the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen came across large quantities of old manuscripts and parchments. They didn't realize what they had found and gathered up the documents, packed them away into some twenty potato sacks, and left them on the staircase of one of the mosque's minarets.[2]

Qadhi Isma'il al-Akwa', then the president of the Yemeni Antiquities Authority realized the potential importance of the find. Al-Akwa' sought international assistance in examining and preserving the fragments, and in 1979 managed to interest a visiting German scholar, who in turn persuaded the West German government to organize and fund a restoration project.[2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts



Problem is, the 'authoritative' 'modern' Koran used today, and these [known to be the very] oldest Koran segments, didn't 'match up'.


Quote:

.......The first person to spend a significant amount of time examining the Yemeni fragments, in 1981, was Gerd-R. Puin, a specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Koranic paleography based at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany. Puin, who had been sent by the German government to organize and oversee the restoration project, recognized the antiquity of some of the parchment fragments, and his preliminary inspection also revealed unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment. Enticing, too, were the sheets of the scripture written in the rare and early Hijazi Arabic script: pieces of the earliest Korans known to exist, they were also palimpsests -- versions very clearly written over even earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.


http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.php
OLD, DEAD LINK



WWW search....
oldest koran segments found Sanaa, Yemen, differ, from modern koran



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #8 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 11:50pm
 


p.s.
These are two of my favourite Koran verses.....


"Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape."
Koran 4.120


"Then, on the Day of Judgment,.....Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily [God] knoweth all that ye did;"
Koran 16.27



Predetermination, is a female dog.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #9 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:39pm
 
the 'createdness' debate came to symbolise the conflict in early Islam between using rationalism and logic in interpreting the Quran (created side) and blindly accepting the word 'as is' without even needing interpretation (uncreated). And from that became a microcosm of the wider debate between pursuing science, philosophy and worldly discovery vs insulating yourself from the natural world and trusting only in the word of God.

It was the triumph of the former that spawned the Islamic golden age, an unprecedented (until then) era of scientific discovery and rediscovery/collecting of Greek philosophical works, held in the largest libraries the world had ever seen. After the rationalists overplayed their hand and made martyrs of the traditionalists, the rationalists declined steadily in the Islamic heartland, though they continued to reign in Islamic Spain - Andalucia, where the scientific boom continued.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #10 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 5:19pm
 
How it happened is irrelevant.

What is the end result, is the main and crucial factor.

Today 2019 the 21st century, what is islam?

1/. muslims are the worlds global terrorist threat.

2/. muslims are the worlds refugee problem.

3/. muslims slaughter their own children (in the hundreds of thousands) with starvation and refugee trauma.

4/. muslims have turned the homelands and birth place of islam into a pile of worthless rubble.

5/. muslims are wracked with poverty illiteracy and inbreeding.

6/. muslims are the major burden on the rest of the globe.

7/. muslims still practice ancient pagan moon god practices.

The end result = islam is a total failure.

muslims / islam are the millstone around the neck of civilization.

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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #11 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 5:32pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:39pm:
the 'createdness' debate came to symbolise the conflict in early Islam between using rationalism and logic in interpreting the Quran (created side) and blindly accepting the word 'as is' without even needing interpretation (uncreated). And from that became a microcosm of the wider debate between pursuing science, philosophy and worldly discovery vs insulating yourself from the natural world and trusting only in the word of God.

It was the triumph of the former that spawned the Islamic golden age, an unprecedented (until then) era of scientific discovery and rediscovery/collecting of Greek philosophical works, held in the largest libraries the world had ever seen. After the rationalists overplayed their hand and made martyrs of the traditionalists, the rationalists declined steadily in the Islamic heartland, though they continued to reign in Islamic Spain - Andalucia, where the scientific boom continued. 


How did the 'rationalists' make martyrs of the traditionalists?
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #12 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 5:57pm
 
How it happened is not irrelevant.

What is the end result, is the main and crucial factor.

Today 2019 the 21st century, what is Christianity?

1/. Christians are the worlds global threat.

2/. Christians have created the world's refugee problem.

3/. Christians slaughter children (in the hundreds of thousands) with starvation and refugee trauma.

4/. Chrstians have turned the homelands and birth place of Islam into a pile of worthless rubble.

5/. Christians create poverty illiteracy and inbreeding.

6/. Christians are the major burden on the rest of the globe.

7/. Christians hide that they still practice ancient pagan moon god practices.

The end result = Christianity is a total failure.

Christians are the millstone around the neck of civilization.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #13 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:22pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 5:57pm:

How it happened is not irrelevant.

What is the end result, is the main and crucial factor.

Today 2019 the 21st century, what is Christianity?

1/. Christians are the worlds global threat.

2/. Christians have created the world's refugee problem.

3/. Christians slaughter children (in the hundreds of thousands) with starvation and refugee trauma.

4/. Chrstians have turned the homelands and birth place of Islam into a pile of worthless rubble.

5/. Christians create poverty illiteracy and inbreeding.

6/. Christians are the major burden on the rest of the globe.

7/. Christians hide that they still practice ancient pagan moon god practices.

The end result = Christianity is a total failure.

Christians are the millstone around the neck of civilization.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




Wow.


So Brian,       .....when are you going to confess, to being a follower of ISLAM ?
[....come on, let it out.]

It seems fairly obvious, that you are.




Only a a follower of ISLAM, could hate Christianity with such venom.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Re: Quranic createdness
Reply #14 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:27pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:39pm:
the 'createdness' debate came to symbolise the conflict in early Islam between using rationalism and logic in interpreting the Quran (created side) and blindly accepting the word 'as is' without even needing interpretation (uncreated). And from that became a microcosm of the wider debate between pursuing science, philosophy and worldly discovery vs insulating yourself from the natural world and trusting only in the word of God.

It was the triumph of the former that spawned the Islamic golden age, an unprecedented (until then) era of scientific discovery and rediscovery/collecting of Greek philosophical works, held in the largest libraries the world had ever seen. After the rationalists overplayed their hand and made martyrs of the traditionalists, the rationalists declined steadily in the Islamic heartland, though they continued to reign in Islamic Spain - Andalucia, where the scientific boom continued. 


It's unfortunate the rationalists lost the battle.

Quranic createdness explains why the Ibadis are more tolerant of other religions than Sunnis. Viewing the Quran as 'created' as the Ibadis do means they tend toward a more contextual Quran, rather than an eternal one.
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