Australian Politics Forum - Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 44333	Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? Reply #30 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 2:40pm Global domination of Christianity is it's aim, Moses. Funny how the two world's greatest religions share a common goal, isn't it? Which will win?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? Reply #31 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 2:45pm Moses are you saying the great christian/jewish prophet Moses, who was privileged enough to be in the presence of God Himself, and who handed down the 10 commandments - was actually a fraud and a liar?
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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? Reply #32 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 2:46pm O.K. forky tongue here's your big chance. Show us the teachings which tells the followers of Christ that they are to dominate the world.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #33 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 2:58pm

moses wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 2:27pm:

Deuteronomy 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.

Deuteronomy is the words of one man, Moses. He claimed that he was telling the Hebrews what God wanted them to do.

The whole thing is a collection of laws and regulations plus the violence to be used in the taking of the promised land.

It is time, people and geography specific.

All the Hebrews were after was the promised land, nothing more.

Today the Jews are not in the least bit interested in turning the entire world into a Jewish State.

In this regard it is the antithesis of islam, global dominance by islam is the stated aim of the qur'an.

The whole theme is that eventually islam will dominate the world.

Muslims claim the same about chapter 9 - especially by reference to a very specific group of people - "those [mushrikeen] with whom you had made a treaty" - in the very first verse.

And yet, people like you and FD latch on to the one small phrase "kill the mushrikeen wherever ye find them" - claiming it is open-ended and without qualification. This is despite the fact that this one phrase is in the clear context of a specific group of polytheists who had, at that point in time, had treaties.

Do you see the double standards moses? Deuteronomy 10-15 is *ENTIRELY* open ended and without qualification. Just like 9:5 is entirely open ended and without qualification - *IF* taken in isolation and ignoring the very first verse of the chapter. Interestingly enough, as you demonstrate, Deuteronomy 20:10-15 also has a context in the very first verse of the chapter. And yet, you maintain that one is restrained by context, but not the other.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #34 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:00pm

moses wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 2:46pm:

O.K. forky tongue here's your big chance.

Show us the teachings which tells the followers of Christ that they are to dominate the world.

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Roll Eyes

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moses

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #35 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:03pm

gandi wrote:
Quote:

Moses are you saying the great christian/jewish prophet Moses, who was privileged enough to be in the presence of God Himself, and who handed down the 10 commandments - was actually a fraud and a liar?

He was a man who preached what his inner being believed.

All preaching is exactly the same, men proclaim what they believe their God wants them to say.

The O.T. is the works of 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses they all had their own distinct personalities which emerge in the entire O.T.

Now that is why you have the problem you have with your belief gandi.

The qur'an is the words of one single man muhammad.

A practicing thief liar pedophile rapist torturer and mass murderer.

So the persona of this weirdo is the over ruling theme of the qur'an.

You have a massive problem gandi your book is as evil as your prophet it's that simple.

I can assure you that blaming the O.T. will not fix your problem.

You have to own and purge the evil in your book, well that's going to wreck havoc on the infallible unchangeable perfection the qur'an is supposed to be.

Your on the slippery slope to oblivion gandi it's just a matter of time before the world gets sick of the antics of the muzzies and their loony leftard apologists.

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moses

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #36 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:10pm

Quote:

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

There were absolutely no Christians around then, they came about 4000 years later.

Don't people believe that that is telling mankind they are the top of the tree?

mankind can tame the land and grow crops and domestic livestock, we have dominion over the fish and the oceans, every living thing mankind has dominion over it.

Absolutely nothing to do with global domination of one religion over every one else.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #37 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:33pm

moses wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:03pm:

gandi wrote:
Quote:

Moses are you saying the great christian/jewish prophet Moses, who was privileged enough to be in the presence of God Himself, and who handed down the 10 commandments - was actually a fraud and a liar?

He was a man who preached what his inner being believed.

All preaching is exactly the same, men proclaim what they believe their God wants them to say.

The O.T. is the works of 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses they all had their own distinct personalities which emerge in the entire O.T.

Now that is why you have the problem you have with your belief gandi.

The qur'an is the words of one single man muhammad.

A practicing thief liar pedophile rapist torturer and mass murderer.

So the persona of this weirdo is the over ruling theme of the qur'an.

You have a massive problem gandi your book is as evil as your prophet it's that simple.

I can assure you that blaming the O.T. will not fix your problem.

You have to own and purge the evil in your book, well that's going to wreck havoc on the infallible unchangeable perfection the qur'an is supposed to be.

Your on the slippery slope to oblivion gandi it's just a matter of time before the world gets sick of the antics of the muzzies and their loony leftard apologists.

Actually the 10 commandments, a pretty central aspect of both christianity and judaism, is also " the words of one single man" moses. He was also considered important and trustworthy enough to be hand-picked by God to both lead his people and reveal mosaic law. Are you saying the "persona of this person" is not important to both Christian and jewish jurisprudence?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #38 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:34pm

moses wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:10pm:

Quote:

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

There were absolutely no Christians around then, they came about 4000 years later.

Don't people believe that that is telling mankind they are the top of the tree?

mankind can tame the land and grow crops and domestic livestock, we have dominion over the fish and the oceans, every living thing mankind has dominion over it.

Absolutely nothing to do with global domination of one religion over every one else.

Ah, the old "not believed by Christians," excuse, hey, Moses?

Yet you're willing to accept that Christians read the Old Testament aren't you?

You're willing, I hope to accept that many Christians believe the biblical creation story told in Genesis, aren't you? You don't expect them to believe in *GASP* - "evolution" do you?

You asked for biblical instructions for Christians to dominate the world. I supplied them.

Next you'll tell us that Christians don't believe in the 10 Commandments, hey? Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? Reply #39 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:35pm Brian Ross wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:34pm: Ah, the old "not believed by Christians," excuse, hey, Moses? Last I checked the OT was still part of the christian bible.
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moses

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #40 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:49pm

Quote:

Ah, the old "not believed by Christians," excuse, hey, Moses?

Yet you're willing to accept that Christians read the Old Testament aren't you?

You're willing, I hope to accept that many Christians believe the biblical creation story told in Genesis, aren't you? You don't expect them to believe in *GASP* - "evolution" do you?

You asked for biblical instructions for Christians to dominate the world. I supplied them.

Next you'll tell us that Christians don't believe in the 10 Commandments, hey?

You supplied nothing. You quoted the bit about man being created and given dominion over the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Absolutely nothing about any religion dominating the earth.

That's what the world problems are about today the 21st century.

muslims are global terrorists because the qur'an tell them to rape torture and kill people until all religion is for allah.

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freediver

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #41 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 4:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 1:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2019 at 8:55pm:

Here's one of the many questions Brian cannot answer:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 9^th, 2019 at 6:10pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2019 at 5:15pm:

Brian is there anything in the old testament that comes close to chapter 9 of the Quran in the open ended promotion of violence to spread religion?

When you answer my questions, FD, I might answer yours. Roll Eyes

Here is chapter 9:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

But let's not restrict it to the old testament. Let's throw it open to all religions. Is there any religious text in existence that even comes close to the Quran, and chapter 9 in particular, in promoting and licensing open-ended violence?

The myth of the bible as descriptive only and not open-ended:

http://www.loonwatch.com/files/2011/05/the-bibles-prescriptive-open-ended-and-un...

Apologists focus on verses such as Deuteronomy 7:1-2, where the command relates only to the "7 nations" - he Hittites, and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites - so unless you are from those tribes (which don't exist anymore), then you are fine.

What they probably won't want to talk about though is verse 20:10-15, an entirely prescriptive and open-ended command for wholesale slaughter:

Quote:

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

This is the general rule, quite distinct from the specific rule pertaining to the 7 nations. If you have any doubts, simply read on to the very next verses:

Quote:

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

There is no doubt that a very clear distinction is being made here between the specific rule for the '7 nations' (slaughter them all, no exceptions), and the general rule for "all the cities [that are not among those of the 7 nations]" - which is demand surrender and make slaves of the inhabitants if they agree - otherwise slaughter all the males and enslave all the women and children.

Would you like to have a go at answering the question Gandalf?

Is there any religious text in existence that even comes close to the Quran, and chapter 9 in particular, in promoting and licensing open-ended violence?

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Brian Ross

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #42 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 8:45pm

moses wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 3:49pm:

[quote]Ah, the old "not believed by Christians," excuse, hey, Moses?

Yet you're willing to accept that Christians read the Old Testament aren't you?

You're willing, I hope to accept that many Christians believe the biblical creation story told in Genesis, aren't you? You don't expect them to believe in *GASP* - "evolution" do you?

You asked for biblical instructions for Christians to dominate the world. I supplied them.

Next you'll tell us that Christians don't believe in the 10 Commandments, hey?

You supplied nothing. You quoted the bit about man being created and given dominion over the earth.

Quote:

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So, according to you, mankind is not a member of the "every living thing that moveth upon the earth", Moses?

Really? Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
Reply #43 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 11:25pm

freediver wrote on Jun 16^th, 2019 at 4:32pm:

Would you like to have a go at answering the question Gandalf?

Is there any religious text in existence that even comes close to the Quran, and chapter 9 in particular, in promoting and licensing open-ended violence?

Sorry FD, I thought i did.

To be even more clear: yes - Deuteronomy, The Old Testament:

Quote:

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Just for a laugh, why don't you give the old "contextualised by the first verse in Deuteronomy" argument a go like moses did - and then pretend its somehow different to the clear contextualisation of the first verse in chapter 9 (moses hasn't got to that part yet - so maybe you can help him out).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50566 At my desk.	Re: Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? Reply #44 - Jun 16^th, 2019 at 11:44pm How do you think that compares to chapter 9 in the promotion and licensing open-ended violence?
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