Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7
Send Topic Print
15th State To Ditch Electoral College (Read 2748 times)
mortdooley
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3274
Texas Gulf Coast
Gender: male
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #30 - May 25th, 2019 at 12:41am
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:57pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:11pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 1:15pm:
The American electoral system is sick and is slowly dying.  The use of simplistic first-past-the-post voting coupled with the unfair electoral college system results in skewed outcomes like the 2016 election where the least popular candidate now sits in the Oval Office.   The USA would be far better off if they moved to a preferential voting system and had a Parliamentary system.  It would provide the people with a real voice for a change and allow them to put into the White House who they actually want, rather than el Presidente' Trump.    Roll Eyes


As more people become dependent on government handouts they will choose to vote for more free stuff and turn their backs on freedom.


So, spoken like a real Rethuglian, hey, Mort?

"Free stuff" has been around for generations.   I don't see the majority of Americans voting for more "free stuff".   You really have a low opinion of your fellow Americans, don't you?   Roll Eyes

You have however, failed to address the points I made, Mort.  Hardly surprising, really.  I know you have no experience of alternative voting systems or Parliamentary Democracy.   You should experience them, they are superior to the primitive first-past-the-post system and your hideously complex and unrepresentative Congress and Senate.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




If you don't see the "free Sh1t Army" you haven't looked at the Bernie Sanders crowd!

You haven't made any points, just posted your opinion. Texas has a much better grasp of how our representative Republic is intended to work. Here Congress only meets every other year and is poorly paid which is a good thing. Because the paycheck is small these people have to support themselves with real jobs. Because the distance between their districts and the Capital is relatively close to most they don't live away from the constituents when Congress isn't in session. My Representative in Austin has a successful Insurance Agency in the City I live just outside of.  I can drive from my home to the Capital in less than three hours.

https://www.thoughtco.com/salaries-and-benefits-of-congress-members-3322282

However those who make it to Washington:

Rank-and-File Members:
The current salary (2019) for rank-and-file members of the House and Senate is $174,000 per year.
Members are free to turn down pay increase and some choose to do so.
In a complex system of calculations, administered by the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, congressional pay rates also affect the salaries of federal judges and other senior government executives.
Congress: Leadership Members' Salary (2019)
Leaders of the House and Senate are paid a higher salary than rank-and-file members.
Senate Leadership
Majority Party Leader - $193,400
Minority Party Leader - $193,400
House Leadership
Speaker of the House - $223,500
Majority Leader - $193,400
Minority Leader - $193,400

Each Member of both Houses of Congress have an expense budget of over a million dollars a year for Staff and everything else they can spend it on.

Without term limits these people represent their own interests over those of the voters and that is the flaw in the system. Political contributions to influence their votes while they lie to the Public that the problem is the other guy, whoever that is at the moment.

When the government robs Peter to pay Paul it can always depend on Pauls vote. I don't have a poor opinion of my fellow Americans, I have a poor opinion of the people who have become dependent on those of us who pull our own weight! Charity should be returned to the Churches and the people who receive support should have to face those who care for them rather than a free check from a faceless government department. If you need help, we will find something for you to do in return.
Back to top
 

Q: What did socialists use before candles?

A: Electricity.
 
IP Logged
 
mortdooley
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3274
Texas Gulf Coast
Gender: male
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #31 - May 25th, 2019 at 12:58am
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 4:34pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:19pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:17pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 4:27am:
We might as well let the democrats just appoint all future Presidents, no need to give the people a choice!


You really think that the people vote for the democrats every time ?

All the electoral college does is to take the result out of the voters hands.



The Democratic Party thinks so or they wouldn't  be trying to change the rules!

Your opinion would have value if every State had only two electoral votes regardless of population and those two votes went to the winner of that State. However low population States may have only two or three electoral votes while high population States may have twenty or even thirty votes. The fact that whoever gets the most votes in each State gets all the Electoral votes thus making it possible for a total popular vote to fall on the side of the loser. Nothing wrong with that, the populations of our four or five largest cities shouldn't be the only places to have the power to elect a President!


So much for the principles of democracy, hey, Mort?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


You seem to forget, the United States is not a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic


It elects it's el Presidente' through a flawed Democratic election though...   Roll Eyes




The problem isn't the election process, it is the nomination process. They let everyone in the Primary answer the same questions rather than in the past when different questions were asked to favor one candidate over the rest. They probably won't do that again, it gave a fair chance to all the candidates. If they had done that in 2012 we would have probably elected Ron Paul President.
Back to top
 

Q: What did socialists use before candles?

A: Electricity.
 
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Representative of the
Maximegalon Institute

Posts: 23396
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #32 - May 25th, 2019 at 12:19pm
 
mortdooley wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:41am:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:57pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:11pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 1:15pm:
The American electoral system is sick and is slowly dying.  The use of simplistic first-past-the-post voting coupled with the unfair electoral college system results in skewed outcomes like the 2016 election where the least popular candidate now sits in the Oval Office.   The USA would be far better off if they moved to a preferential voting system and had a Parliamentary system.  It would provide the people with a real voice for a change and allow them to put into the White House who they actually want, rather than el Presidente' Trump.    Roll Eyes


As more people become dependent on government handouts they will choose to vote for more free stuff and turn their backs on freedom.


So, spoken like a real Rethuglian, hey, Mort?

"Free stuff" has been around for generations.   I don't see the majority of Americans voting for more "free stuff".   You really have a low opinion of your fellow Americans, don't you?   Roll Eyes

You have however, failed to address the points I made, Mort.  Hardly surprising, really.  I know you have no experience of alternative voting systems or Parliamentary Democracy.   You should experience them, they are superior to the primitive first-past-the-post system and your hideously complex and unrepresentative Congress and Senate.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




If you don't see the "free Sh1t Army" you haven't looked at the Bernie Sanders crowd!


As I said, you have rather a low opinion of your fellow Americans, Mort.  It does not become you to say such things about people who are just as entitled to their opinion as you are.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
You haven't made any points, just posted your opinion. Texas has a much better grasp of how our representative Republic is intended to work. Here Congress only meets every other year and is poorly paid which is a good thing. Because the paycheck is small these people have to support themselves with real jobs. Because the distance between their districts and the Capital is relatively close to most they don't live away from the constituents when Congress isn't in session. My Representative in Austin has a successful Insurance Agency in the City I live just outside of.  I can drive from my home to the Capital in less than three hours.


Immaterial to the points I made, Mort.  Why not address them?  Too difficult perhaps because of your stunning lack of experience of such matters?  Mmmm?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Representative of the
Maximegalon Institute

Posts: 23396
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #33 - May 25th, 2019 at 12:23pm
 
mortdooley wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:58am:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 4:34pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:19pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:17pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 4:27am:
We might as well let the democrats just appoint all future Presidents, no need to give the people a choice!


You really think that the people vote for the democrats every time ?

All the electoral college does is to take the result out of the voters hands.



The Democratic Party thinks so or they wouldn't  be trying to change the rules!

Your opinion would have value if every State had only two electoral votes regardless of population and those two votes went to the winner of that State. However low population States may have only two or three electoral votes while high population States may have twenty or even thirty votes. The fact that whoever gets the most votes in each State gets all the Electoral votes thus making it possible for a total popular vote to fall on the side of the loser. Nothing wrong with that, the populations of our four or five largest cities shouldn't be the only places to have the power to elect a President!


So much for the principles of democracy, hey, Mort?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


You seem to forget, the United States is not a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic


It elects it's el Presidente' through a flawed Democratic election though...   Roll Eyes


The problem isn't the election process, it is the nomination process. They let everyone in the Primary answer the same questions rather than in the past when different questions were asked to favor one candidate over the rest. They probably won't do that again, it gave a fair chance to all the candidates. If they had done that in 2012 we would have probably elected Ron Paul President.


I've never seen the point of having first a primary process and then the actual election.  The party should nominate who they think is the best for the job, rather than appealling to the public for their opinion (for the nominations).   Just hold the bloody election.

Last week we had a Federal Election downunder.  I worked on a Polling Booth as an Election Commission employee.  The number of remarks made about the difference between the US and Downunder were interesting.   An election every two years?  No way, mate.  No one was interested.   Once every three years is more than often enough!   Roll Eyes

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 71813
Gender: female
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #34 - May 25th, 2019 at 12:38pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:23pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:58am:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 4:34pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:19pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:17pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 4:27am:
We might as well let the democrats just appoint all future Presidents, no need to give the people a choice!


You really think that the people vote for the democrats every time ?

All the electoral college does is to take the result out of the voters hands.



The Democratic Party thinks so or they wouldn't  be trying to change the rules!

Your opinion would have value if every State had only two electoral votes regardless of population and those two votes went to the winner of that State. However low population States may have only two or three electoral votes while high population States may have twenty or even thirty votes. The fact that whoever gets the most votes in each State gets all the Electoral votes thus making it possible for a total popular vote to fall on the side of the loser. Nothing wrong with that, the populations of our four or five largest cities shouldn't be the only places to have the power to elect a President!


So much for the principles of democracy, hey, Mort?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


You seem to forget, the United States is not a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic


It elects it's el Presidente' through a flawed Democratic election though...   Roll Eyes


The problem isn't the election process, it is the nomination process. They let everyone in the Primary answer the same questions rather than in the past when different questions were asked to favor one candidate over the rest. They probably won't do that again, it gave a fair chance to all the candidates. If they had done that in 2012 we would have probably elected Ron Paul President.


I've never seen the point of having first a primary process and then the actual election.  The party should nominate who they think is the best for the job, rather than appealling to the public for their opinion (for the nominations).   Just hold the bloody election.


That's what a primary is, dear - a party nominating its representatives.

Some states have opened this up to non-party members. I'm not sure how that's supposed to work.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bias_2012
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 5088
Gender: male
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #35 - May 25th, 2019 at 12:42pm
 
Karnal wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:38pm:
That's what a primary is, dear - a party nominating its representatives.



A bit like the Libs and Labs preselection  process
Back to top
 

Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 71813
Gender: female
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #36 - May 25th, 2019 at 1:07pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:42pm:
Karnal wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:38pm:
That's what a primary is, dear - a party nominating its representatives.



A bit like the Libs and Labs preselection  process


Exactly. That's the one where the factional operatives haggle over who gets up.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Representative of the
Maximegalon Institute

Posts: 23396
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #37 - May 25th, 2019 at 4:41pm
 
Karnal wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:38pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:23pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 12:58am:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 4:34pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:19pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:17pm:
mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 4:27am:
We might as well let the democrats just appoint all future Presidents, no need to give the people a choice!


You really think that the people vote for the democrats every time ?

All the electoral college does is to take the result out of the voters hands.



The Democratic Party thinks so or they wouldn't  be trying to change the rules!

Your opinion would have value if every State had only two electoral votes regardless of population and those two votes went to the winner of that State. However low population States may have only two or three electoral votes while high population States may have twenty or even thirty votes. The fact that whoever gets the most votes in each State gets all the Electoral votes thus making it possible for a total popular vote to fall on the side of the loser. Nothing wrong with that, the populations of our four or five largest cities shouldn't be the only places to have the power to elect a President!


So much for the principles of democracy, hey, Mort?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


You seem to forget, the United States is not a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic


It elects it's el Presidente' through a flawed Democratic election though...   Roll Eyes


The problem isn't the election process, it is the nomination process. They let everyone in the Primary answer the same questions rather than in the past when different questions were asked to favor one candidate over the rest. They probably won't do that again, it gave a fair chance to all the candidates. If they had done that in 2012 we would have probably elected Ron Paul President.


I've never seen the point of having first a primary process and then the actual election.  The party should nominate who they think is the best for the job, rather than appealling to the public for their opinion (for the nominations).   Just hold the bloody election.


That's what a primary is, dear - a party nominating its representatives.

Some states have opened this up to non-party members. I'm not sure how that's supposed to work.


The clear difference though, Karnal is that parties do it behind closed doors.  The Septics make a song and dance routine out of everything and put on a stage show.   Who cares?  I really have to wonder about that.   Just put forward your nominee and say, "we worked it out backstage, OK?"

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
mortdooley
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3274
Texas Gulf Coast
Gender: male
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #38 - May 25th, 2019 at 9:05pm
 
Quote:
The American electoral system is sick and is slowly dying.  The use of simplistic first-past-the-post voting coupled with the unfair electoral college system results in skewed outcomes like the 2016 election where the least popular candidate now sits in the Oval Office.   The USA would be far better off if they moved to a preferential voting system and had a Parliamentary system.  It would provide the people with a real voice for a change and allow them to put into the White House who they actually want, rather than el Presidente' Trump.


That is an opinion, nothing more.

Quote:
I've never seen the point of having first a primary process and then the actual election.  The party should nominate who they think is the best for the job, rather than appealling to the public for their opinion (for the nominations).   Just hold the bloody election.


At that point you might as well flip a coin and have the nominees call it in mid air!


Back to top
 

Q: What did socialists use before candles?

A: Electricity.
 
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Representative of the
Maximegalon Institute

Posts: 23396
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #39 - May 26th, 2019 at 7:28pm
 
mortdooley wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 9:05pm:
Quote:
The American electoral system is sick and is slowly dying.  The use of simplistic first-past-the-post voting coupled with the unfair electoral college system results in skewed outcomes like the 2016 election where the least popular candidate now sits in the Oval Office.   The USA would be far better off if they moved to a preferential voting system and had a Parliamentary system.  It would provide the people with a real voice for a change and allow them to put into the White House who they actually want, rather than el Presidente' Trump.


That is an opinion, nothing more.


Opinion that you need to address, Mort.  Otherwise, you just look like a h'ignorant hillbilly...  Roll Eyes

Quote:
Quote:
I've never seen the point of having first a primary process and then the actual election.  The party should nominate who they think is the best for the job, rather than appealling to the public for their opinion (for the nominations).   Just hold the bloody election.


At that point you might as well flip a coin and have the nominees call it in mid air!


If it works, why not?

Downunder, nominees must seek pre-selection with their local party and prove they are, in their opinion, the best person to be the candidate for the next election.  Occasionally, central office will "parachute" in a candidate but those choices rarely get the support from the locals that they need to win their seat.   Sitting candidates aren't always assured of winning pre-selection either.

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Maqqa
Gold Member
*****
Offline


14% - that low?!

Posts: 16000
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #40 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:14pm
 
If Popular vote is the measure then campaigning patterns will change

Policy will change to suit the narrative of the populous crowd rather than the good of the country
Back to top
 

Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
IP Logged
 
mortdooley
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3274
Texas Gulf Coast
Gender: male
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #41 - May 27th, 2019 at 12:18am
 
Quote:
Opinion that you need to address, Mort.  Otherwise, you just look like a h'ignorant hillbilly


I know what a Parliamentary form of ownership of the general population is. A culture that is founded and evolved on the divine right of kings is not something I care to live under! That man that lives up the street is better than you and you are better than the one who lives down the street. Someone who speaks with a more cultured manner is your better and someone with a limited vocabulary makes you his better. Do you have bad teeth as well? We have never had a Class System to the degree the English and their colonies have, not had! As much as Washington tries to be our masters they haven't conquered us yet.

I visited western Kentucky a couple of weeks ago and the people are clean, well mannered and as intelligent as anyone. Most of the Snowflakes we are producing in the major cities have few life skills and a massive scene of entitlement. If you can't work with your hands, you probably are not of any value to society and you will never feel the sense of accomplishment the rest of us do.

Donald Trump wasn't the least popular candidate, people that actually have their own opinion voted him into Office. They are the people that think about the issues. The double standard became more than we could ignore! You may not know what a "Yellow Dog Democrat" is but that is the voter that will vote democrat no matter who or what is their candidate. A large number of people fall into this group. Ask them about any accomplishments of their preferred candidate and more often than not you get a "deer in the headlights" look from them. Tell them their preferred candidate supports issues that are actually those of the opponent and they agree with every point. Do that to the other side and it never works because they know what issues they support and oppose and then find the candidate who most represents their views.

That government is best which governs least
Back to top
 

Q: What did socialists use before candles?

A: Electricity.
 
IP Logged
 
mortdooley
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3274
Texas Gulf Coast
Gender: male
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #42 - May 27th, 2019 at 12:19am
 
Maqqa wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:14pm:
If Popular vote is the measure then campaigning patterns will change

Policy will change to suit the narrative of the populous crowd rather than the good of the country



Four ugly men and one hot looking woman vote on having sex, that is democracy!
Back to top
 

Q: What did socialists use before candles?

A: Electricity.
 
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Representative of the
Maximegalon Institute

Posts: 23396
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #43 - May 27th, 2019 at 2:00pm
 
mortdooley wrote on May 27th, 2019 at 12:18am:
Quote:
Opinion that you need to address, Mort.  Otherwise, you just look like a h'ignorant hillbilly


I know what a Parliamentary form of ownership of the general population is. A culture that is founded and evolved on the divine right of kings is not something I care to live under!


Interesting.  It appears the English Civil War and the Revolution of 1688 has just disappeared from your understanding of history, Mort.  I wonder why your education has been so deficit?  No one in the UK has believed in the "divine right of kings" since Charles I had his head chopped off at the end of the English Civil War.  Parliament is sovereign in the UK.  Time I think you learnt a little about history and the effects of both events had on the political life of the UK.  It will do you good to get out and to get some learnin' little man.

Quote:
That man that lives up the street is better than you and you are better than the one who lives down the street. Someone who speaks with a more cultured manner is your better and someone with a limited vocabulary makes you his better. Do you have bad teeth as well? We have never had a Class System to the degree the English and their colonies have, not had! As much as Washington tries to be our masters they haven't conquered us yet.


I am unsure what society you're talking about, Mort.  Downunder, we have lived a largely classless society since the mid-1880s.   So much so, that people sit in the front seat of taxis and actually talk to the driver!  Shock, horror, hey?  Time to grow up and look at the real world.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
I visited western Kentucky a couple of weeks ago and the people are clean, well mannered and as intelligent as anyone. Most of the Snowflakes we are producing in the major cities have few life skills and a massive scene of entitlement. If you can't work with your hands, you probably are not of any value to society and you will never feel the sense of accomplishment the rest of us do.


Does that include the two thirds of Americans that don't want Arabic numerals taught in school?  The 39% of Americans who believe the sun revolves around the Earth?  How about the many Americans who believe that pre-historic man lived with the Dinosaurs?  Mmmm?  Strange how your inadequate education system produces such results, hey?

I am sure the people of Kentucky are nice people but it seems the statistics just don't show they know about how the world indeed, the universe, actually works or what has occurred in the world's history.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
Donald Trump wasn't the least popular candidate, people that actually have their own opinion voted him into Office.


Ah, that would explain why more people voted for Hilary than they did for el Presidente' Trump, I take it.  Remember, he lost the popular vote.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
They are the people that think about the issues. The double standard became more than we could ignore! You may not know what a "Yellow Dog Democrat" is but that is the voter that will vote democrat no matter who or what is their candidate. A large number of people fall into this group. Ask them about any accomplishments of their preferred candidate and more often than not you get a "deer in the headlights" look from them. Tell them their preferred candidate supports issues that are actually those of the opponent and they agree with every point. Do that to the other side and it never works because they know what issues they support and oppose and then find the candidate who most represents their views.


Why am I not surprised by such ignorance amongst the majority of Americans, Mort?  It seems American society teaches it's people to be stupid, not to take an interest in politics and to look upon those that do as abnormal or something...   Roll Eyes

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bias_2012
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 5088
Gender: male
Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #44 - May 27th, 2019 at 5:08pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 27th, 2019 at 2:00pm:
Ah, that would explain why more people voted for Hilary than they did for el Presidente' Trump, I take it.  Remember, he lost the popular vote.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes



And yet you want a future Australian head of state appointed by Parliament, with no popular vote from the people at all
Back to top
 

Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7
Send Topic Print