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15th State To Ditch Electoral College (Read 5386 times)
AiA
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #15 - May 24th, 2019 at 1:14am
 
Mortie, are you saying that countries without an Electoral College aren't fairly represented?
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #16 - May 24th, 2019 at 9:38am
 
Yes - Ditch the Electoral College system - that way candidates only have to fly between major populated cities and **** the rest of the country.
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #17 - May 24th, 2019 at 9:45am
 
SerialBrain9 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 9:38am:
Yes - Ditch the Electoral College system - that way candidates only have to fly between major populated cities and **** the rest of the country.



The red belt? Win win.
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #18 - May 24th, 2019 at 1:06pm
 
Would you want an Australian president to be elected by the people or appointed by Parliament ... and which political party would you like the president to represent?
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #19 - May 24th, 2019 at 2:57pm
 
Mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:11pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 1:15pm:
The American electoral system is sick and is slowly dying.  The use of simplistic first-past-the-post voting coupled with the unfair electoral college system results in skewed outcomes like the 2016 election where the least popular candidate now sits in the Oval Office.   The USA would be far better off if they moved to a preferential voting system and had a Parliamentary system.  It would provide the people with a real voice for a change and allow them to put into the White House who they actually want, rather than el Presidente' Trump.    Roll Eyes


As more people become dependent on government handouts they will choose to vote for more free stuff and turn their backs on freedom.


So, spoken like a real Rethuglian, hey, Mort?

"Free stuff" has been around for generations.   I don't see the majority of Americans voting for more "free stuff".   You really have a low opinion of your fellow Americans, don't you?   Roll Eyes

You have however, failed to address the points I made, Mort.  Hardly surprising, really.  I know you have no experience of alternative voting systems or Parliamentary Democracy.   You should experience them, they are superior to the primitive first-past-the-post system and your hideously complex and unrepresentative Congress and Senate.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #20 - May 24th, 2019 at 2:59pm
 
Mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:19pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:17pm:
Mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 4:27am:
We might as well let the democrats just appoint all future Presidents, no need to give the people a choice!


You really think that the people vote for the democrats every time ?

All the electoral college does is to take the result out of the voters hands.



The Democratic Party thinks so or they wouldn't  be trying to change the rules!

Your opinion would have value if every State had only two electoral votes regardless of population and those two votes went to the winner of that State. However low population States may have only two or three electoral votes while high population States may have twenty or even thirty votes. The fact that whoever gets the most votes in each State gets all the Electoral votes thus making it possible for a total popular vote to fall on the side of the loser. Nothing wrong with that, the populations of our four or five largest cities shouldn't be the only places to have the power to elect a President!


So much for the principles of democracy, hey, Mort?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #21 - May 24th, 2019 at 3:01pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 1:06pm:
Would you want an Australian president to be elected by the people or appointed by Parliament ... and which political party would you like the president to represent?


Parliament is effectively sovereign downunder.   Therefore, it would not like the idea of a President who was not chosen by it.   The people would mistakenly assume that the President is anything other than a Head of State - just like the GG at the moment.   Their powers are limited, as they should be.

As to which party should be President - they should represent the party which holds Government - afterall, they have the maximum number of seats in the Parliament (usually).


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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #22 - May 24th, 2019 at 3:18pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:01pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 1:06pm:
Would you want an Australian president to be elected by the people or appointed by Parliament ... and which political party would you like the president to represent?


Parliament is effectively sovereign downunder.   Therefore, it would not like the idea of a President who was not chosen by it.   The people would mistakenly assume that the President is anything other than a Head of State - just like the GG at the moment.   Their powers are limited, as they should be.

As to which party should be President - they should represent the party which holds Government - afterall, they have the maximum number of seats in the Parliament (usually).




Again, many Australian voters are imbeciles.

Using the term 'President' would just confuse them.

The next time we vote to become a Republic, we should use a different term - 'Head of State', for example.

The term 'President' is one of the things that scares off many of the (ignorant) voters.



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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #23 - May 24th, 2019 at 3:45pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:19pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:17pm:
Mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 4:27am:
We might as well let the democrats just appoint all future Presidents, no need to give the people a choice!


You really think that the people vote for the democrats every time ?

All the electoral college does is to take the result out of the voters hands.



The Democratic Party thinks so or they wouldn't  be trying to change the rules!

Your opinion would have value if every State had only two electoral votes regardless of population and those two votes went to the winner of that State. However low population States may have only two or three electoral votes while high population States may have twenty or even thirty votes. The fact that whoever gets the most votes in each State gets all the Electoral votes thus making it possible for a total popular vote to fall on the side of the loser. Nothing wrong with that, the populations of our four or five largest cities shouldn't be the only places to have the power to elect a President!


So much for the principles of democracy, hey, Mort?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


You seem to forget, the United States is not a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #24 - May 24th, 2019 at 4:34pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:19pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 10:17pm:
Mortdooley wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 4:27am:
We might as well let the democrats just appoint all future Presidents, no need to give the people a choice!


You really think that the people vote for the democrats every time ?

All the electoral college does is to take the result out of the voters hands.



The Democratic Party thinks so or they wouldn't  be trying to change the rules!

Your opinion would have value if every State had only two electoral votes regardless of population and those two votes went to the winner of that State. However low population States may have only two or three electoral votes while high population States may have twenty or even thirty votes. The fact that whoever gets the most votes in each State gets all the Electoral votes thus making it possible for a total popular vote to fall on the side of the loser. Nothing wrong with that, the populations of our four or five largest cities shouldn't be the only places to have the power to elect a President!


So much for the principles of democracy, hey, Mort?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


You seem to forget, the United States is not a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic


It elects it's el Presidente' through a flawed Democratic election though...   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #25 - May 24th, 2019 at 6:32pm
 
Source:      
WIKIPEDIA
     Quote:
There have been
five
United States presidential elections in which the winner lost the popular vote including the 1824 election, which was the first U.S. presidential election where the popular vote was recorded.[1]
Losing the popular vote means securing less of the national popular vote than the person who received either a majority or a plurality of the vote.[2][3]......
continued





Quote:
◆  In 1824 Andrew Jackson won the popular vote but got less than 50 percent of the electoral votes. John Quincy Adams became the next president when he was picked by the House of Representatives.

◆   In 1876 Samuel Tilden won the popular vote but lost the election when Rutherford B. Hayes got 185 electoral votes to Tilden’s 184.

◆   In 1888 Grover Cleveland won the popular vote but lost the election when Benjamin Harrison got 233 electoral votes to Cleveland’s 168.

◆    In 2000 Al Gore won the popular vote but lost the election to George Bush. In the most highly contested election in modern history, the U.S. Supreme Court stopped the Florida recount of ballots, giving Bush the state’s 25 electoral votes for a total of 271 to Gore’s 255.

◆   In 2016 Hillary Clinton won 48.2 percent of the total popular vote to Donald Trump's 46.1 percent, but lost the election to Trump. Trump won 306 electoral votes to Clinton's 232.
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #26 - May 24th, 2019 at 7:16pm
 
..



Why the ‘National Popular Vote’ scheme
is Unconstitutional






Source:      
Daily Caller
       Quote:
The U.S. Supreme Court says each state legislature has “plenary” (complete) power to decide how its state’s presidential electors are chosen.

But suppose a state legislature decided to raise cash by selling its electors to the highest bidder. Do you think the Supreme Court would uphold such a measure?


If your answer is “no,” then you intuitively grasp a basic principle of constitutional law—one overlooked by those proposing the “National Popular Vote Compact” (NPV).

NPV is a plan to change how we elect our president. Under the plan, each state signs a compact to award all its electoral votes to the presidential candidate who wins the national popular vote. The compact comes into effect when states with a majority of presidential electors sign on.....

In assessing the constitutionality of NPV, you have to consider some of its central features. First, NPV abandons the idea that presidential electors represent the people of their own states. Second, it discards an election system balanced among interests and values in favor of one recognizing only national popularity. That popularity need not be high: A state joining the NPV compact agrees to assign its electors to even the winner of a tiny plurality in a multi-candidate election.

Third, because NPV states would have a majority of votes in the Electoral College, NPV would effectively repeal the Constitution’s provision for run-off elections in the House of Representatives.

Fourth, NPV requires each state’s election officer to apply the vote tabulations certified by other state election officers—even if those tabulations are known to be fraudulent or erroneous.  Indeed, NPV would give state politicians powerful incentives to inflate, by fair means or foul, their vote totals relative to other states.

Don’t changes that sweeping require a constitutional amendment?

In answer to this question, NPV advocates point out that the Constitution seemingly gives state legislatures unlimited authority to decide how their electors are appointed. They further note that the Constitution recognizes the reserved power of states to make compacts with each other. Although the Constitution’s text requires that interstate compacts be approved by Congress, NPV advocates claim congressional approval of NPV is not necessary. They observe that in U.S. Steel v. Multistate Tax Comm’n (1978) the Supreme Court held that Congress must approve a compact only when the compact increases state power at the expense of federal power.

NPV advocates may be wrong about congressional approval. It is unclear that the justices would follow U.S. Steel’s ruling now. The Constitution’s language requiring congressional approval is crystal clear, and the court today is much more respectful of the Constitution’s text and historical meaning than it was in 1978. Moreover, you can make a good argument that U.S. Steel requires congressional approval for NPV because NPV would weaken federal institutions: It would (1) abolish the role of the U.S. House of Representatives in the electoral process and (2) alter the presidential election system without congressional involvement. Furthermore, even the U.S. Steel case suggested that compacts require congressional approval whenever they “impact . . . our federal structure.”

A more fundamental problem with NPV, however, is that with or without congressional approval it violates a central principle of constitutional law.

The Constitution recognizes two kinds of powers: (1) those reserved by the Tenth Amendment in the states by reason of state sovereignty (“reserved powers”) and (2) those created and granted by the Constitution itself (“delegated powers”). Reserved powers are, in James Madison’s words, “numerous and indefinite,” but delegated powers are “few and defined.”

A state’s power to enter into a compact with other states is reserved in nature, and it almost always involves other reserved powers, such as taxation and water use. Such was the compact examined by the Supreme Court in the U.S. Steel case.

As for delegated powers, the Constitution grants most of these to agents of the federal government. However, it also grants some to entities outside the federal government. Recipients include state legislatures, state governors, state and federal conventions, and presidential electors.

The scope of delegated powers is “defined” by the Constitution’s language, construed in light of its underlying purpose and its historical context. If state lawmakers or officers try to employ a delegated power in a way not sanctioned by its purpose and scope, the courts intervene.

For example, the courts often have voided efforts to exercise delegated powers in the constitutional amendment process in ways inconsistent with purpose or historical understanding. This is true even if the attempt superficially complies with the Constitution’s text.........
continued




The SCOTUS will undoubtedly become involved because there are a few obvious Constitutional issues & safeguards in jeopardy.



..

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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #27 - May 24th, 2019 at 8:37pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:01pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 1:06pm:
Would you want an Australian president to be elected by the people or appointed by Parliament ... and which political party would you like the president to represent?


Parliament is effectively sovereign downunder.   Therefore, it would not like the idea of a President who was not chosen by it.   The people would mistakenly assume that the President is anything other than a Head of State - just like the GG at the moment.   Their powers are limited, as they should be.

As to which party should be President - they should represent the party which holds Government - afterall, they have the maximum number of seats in the Parliament (usually).




So what powers should the Head of State have?
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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #28 - May 24th, 2019 at 10:45pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 8:37pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:01pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 1:06pm:
Would you want an Australian president to be elected by the people or appointed by Parliament ... and which political party would you like the president to represent?


Parliament is effectively sovereign downunder.   Therefore, it would not like the idea of a President who was not chosen by it.   The people would mistakenly assume that the President is anything other than a Head of State - just like the GG at the moment.   Their powers are limited, as they should be.

As to which party should be President - they should represent the party which holds Government - afterall, they have the maximum number of seats in the Parliament (usually).


So what powers should the Head of State have?


Basically what the GG presently enjoys.   Apart from his "Reserve Powers", all they need do is sign bills into law, attend fetes, launch ships, etc.  you know, the stuff that figureheads do.

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Re: 15th State To Ditch Electoral College
Reply #29 - May 25th, 2019 at 12:22am
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:45pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 8:37pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 3:01pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 1:06pm:
Would you want an Australian president to be elected by the people or appointed by Parliament ... and which political party would you like the president to represent?


Parliament is effectively sovereign downunder.   Therefore, it would not like the idea of a President who was not chosen by it.   The people would mistakenly assume that the President is anything other than a Head of State - just like the GG at the moment.   Their powers are limited, as they should be.

As to which party should be President - they should represent the party which holds Government - afterall, they have the maximum number of seats in the Parliament (usually).


So what powers should the Head of State have?


Basically what the GG presently enjoys.   Apart from his "Reserve Powers", all they need do is sign bills into law, attend fetes, launch ships, etc.  you know, the stuff that figureheads do.



That's what we've got now


Now, you are criticizing the US for not having a fair democratic election of the President, but you hold the view that it's ok if an Australian Head of State be appointed by Parliament ... and then you reckon the Head of State should represent the Government .... what about the Australian people, who will represent them as Head of State?

I can only assume that you want the idea of the National Popular Vote and Electoral College dropped in the US and just let Congress appoint the President ... that's the logic of your thinking - am I wrong?
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