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Voting reform in the House of Reps (Read 1525 times)
Ye Grappler
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #45 - May 20th, 2019 at 11:55pm
 
Auggie wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 7:16pm:
freediver wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 9:39pm:
Auggie wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 7:50pm:
freediver wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 7:44pm:
You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.


Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.


You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.


It's a better system because it's creates stability.


I would prefer instability to absolute control by any of our current parties... chaos is the normal state of being - your kind of order is Nazism and Stalinism...

We, the PEOPLE that once were, do not want one party to have absolute control as it did in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia...

You're a foreigner, Augie - you do not understand democracy as it is exercised HERE.

Would you rather a Singaporean style of 'democracy' in which the rich get to stand and get the votes, and there are draconian punishments for silly 'infringements' and so forth, and in which the rich only use political position for self-advancement and not as service to the people?

You, from past posts, are an advocate of market capitalism - that never-ending Darwinian fist fight.... and you wish to extend that to the political sphere.

I must inform you - politics has no place in business - and business has NO place in politics.

NOBODY in his/her right mind wants some party dedicated to market capitalism in total control... as our recent history has shown, even with the rather watered-down approach to market capitalism of the LNP.

Softly softly may catchee Tiger - but not HERE, son.  Australians are not going to stand by and watch a takeover of our entire political and economic life by market capitalists.... get used to the idea.  Boiling Australian frogs does not work - they're too smart, and the tiny amount of actual violence in the recent election shows an underlying discontent with the entire political process.

Watch this space when the 'government' sets out on its market capitalism sellout....

It's appalling to see, already, that the media are spruiking some 'rise in the housing market' following the election...what a farken disaster for Australia and Australians.  That market needs to crash and be replaced by one that actually benefits the nation.

2019 - Year Of Decision..... make or break time in many ways.... I expect to see violence enter politics...... unless the government toes the line properly....
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freediver
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #46 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:20pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 11:45pm:
Armchair_Politician wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 12:24pm:
Get rid of preferencing. It’s a farce that gives is morons who win seats regardless of the fact another candidate wins thousands more votes than them.



Totally agree... if your policies are not popular enough for you to gain a large enough vote - they should be reserved for negotiation later and 'lobbying' - not handed an automatic credence by being a 'preference' vote.


So how do you suggest we get rid of preference voting without voting in policies that only have minority support?
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.JaSin.
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #47 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:28pm
 
freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:20pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 11:45pm:
Armchair_Politician wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 12:24pm:
Get rid of preferencing. It’s a farce that gives is morons who win seats regardless of the fact another candidate wins thousands more votes than them.



Totally agree... if your policies are not popular enough for you to gain a large enough vote - they should be reserved for negotiation later and 'lobbying' - not handed an automatic credence by being a 'preference' vote.


So how do you suggest we get rid of preference voting without voting in policies that only have minority support?


Give Power to the 'majority' of Votes.
x4 million roughly voted for LNP.
x8 million roughly voted for everyone else.

...who said Australian Politics can't be a 'Team Effort'?
It's all about 'mateship' and working 'together' no? Huh
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #48 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:29pm
 
freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:20pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 11:45pm:
Armchair_Politician wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 12:24pm:
Get rid of preferencing. It’s a farce that gives is morons who win seats regardless of the fact another candidate wins thousands more votes than them.



Totally agree... if your policies are not popular enough for you to gain a large enough vote - they should be reserved for negotiation later and 'lobbying' - not handed an automatic credence by being a 'preference' vote.


So how do you suggest we get rid of preference voting without voting in policies that only have minority support?



First past the post is automatically majority ...

No guarantee that the entire mix of policy is going to be solid through and through - our politicians love to offer us a mix of good and evil so that we are forced to swallow some sh1t with our steak and lobster.  They trade off some good for some evil - what a ridiculous way to try to manage a country.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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freediver
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #49 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:41pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:29pm:
freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:20pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 11:45pm:
Armchair_Politician wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 12:24pm:
Get rid of preferencing. It’s a farce that gives is morons who win seats regardless of the fact another candidate wins thousands more votes than them.



Totally agree... if your policies are not popular enough for you to gain a large enough vote - they should be reserved for negotiation later and 'lobbying' - not handed an automatic credence by being a 'preference' vote.


So how do you suggest we get rid of preference voting without voting in policies that only have minority support?



First past the post is automatically majority ...

No guarantee that the entire mix of policy is going to be solid through and through - our politicians love to offer us a mix of good and evil so that we are forced to swallow some sh1t with our steak and lobster.  They trade off some good for some evil - what a ridiculous way to try to manage a country.


You got it backwards.

FPTP is by definition minority. If there are 10 candidates, you can win with as little as 10% of the vote.

Preferential voting is by definition majority rule. If the LNP get 51% of the TPP vote, that means the majority of the population prefer them over Labor.

You appear to be assuming that anyone who ranks a minor party first does not have a valid opinion on whether Labor or Liberal should form government. They do. All that FPTP voting would achieve is to kill off the minor parties because people would vote along TPP lines rather than for minor parties, regardless of who they actually prefer. And that would mean the two major parties can more easily get away with forcing unpopular policies on the public at the behest of lobbyists, donors and vested interests.

The outcome of what you suggest would be the exact opposite of what you claim.
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.JaSin.
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #50 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:46pm
 
Two Party system is archaic, stupid and restrictive.
Nothing but a Coin Flip.  Roll Eyes
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freediver
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #51 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:49pm
 
.JaSin. wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:46pm:
Two Party system is archaic, stupid and restrictive.
Nothing but a Coin Flip.  Roll Eyes


It is not a "system". It is a description of who people vote for. We have more than two parties.
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.JaSin.
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #52 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:57pm
 
freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:49pm:
.JaSin. wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:46pm:
Two Party system is archaic, stupid and restrictive.
Nothing but a Coin Flip.  Roll Eyes


It is not a "system". It is a description of who people vote for. We have more than two parties.

And those 'other' parties are just absorbed in many ways -by those 'Two Parties'.

Like I said - the 'majority' of Voters DID NOT vote for the LNP.

Why can't Australian Politics be a 'collective' effort?
You can have 'Team' Sports, why not Team Politics? Why does it just have to be 'One' (from Two) like the UK/USA?

Power to the People, not the Individual.
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Auggie
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #53 - May 21st, 2019 at 6:18pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 11:55pm:
Auggie wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 7:16pm:
freediver wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 9:39pm:
Auggie wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 7:50pm:
freediver wrote on May 19th, 2019 at 7:44pm:
You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.


Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.


You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.


It's a better system because it's creates stability.


I would prefer instability to absolute control by any of our current parties... chaos is the normal state of being - your kind of order is Nazism and Stalinism...

We, the PEOPLE that once were, do not want one party to have absolute control as it did in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia...

You're a foreigner, Augie - you do not understand democracy as it is exercised HERE.

Would you rather a Singaporean style of 'democracy' in which the rich get to stand and get the votes, and there are draconian punishments for silly 'infringements' and so forth, and in which the rich only use political position for self-advancement and not as service to the people?

You, from past posts, are an advocate of market capitalism - that never-ending Darwinian fist fight.... and you wish to extend that to the political sphere.

I must inform you - politics has no place in business - and business has NO place in politics.

NOBODY in his/her right mind wants some party dedicated to market capitalism in total control... as our recent history has shown, even with the rather watered-down approach to market capitalism of the LNP.

Softly softly may catchee Tiger - but not HERE, son.  Australians are not going to stand by and watch a takeover of our entire political and economic life by market capitalists.... get used to the idea.  Boiling Australian frogs does not work - they're too smart, and the tiny amount of actual violence in the recent election shows an underlying discontent with the entire political process.

Watch this space when the 'government' sets out on its market capitalism sellout....

It's appalling to see, already, that the media are spruiking some 'rise in the housing market' following the election...what a farken disaster for Australia and Australians.  That market needs to crash and be replaced by one that actually benefits the nation.

2019 - Year Of Decision..... make or break time in many ways.... I expect to see violence enter politics...... unless the government toes the line properly....


So, for most of our history when one party has controlled the House of Reps, you're saying that this has been wrong??

Second of all, the government is the party which controls the majority of seats in the House of Reps. That's what the system is, if you don't like it then join in drafting a new Constitution for a new Australian Republic.
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Auggie
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #54 - May 21st, 2019 at 6:21pm
 
freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:41pm:
FPTP is by definition minority. If there are 10 candidates, you can win with as little as 10% of the vote.


Which actually makes it easier for minority parties to be elected since they would need to swing a small percentage of voters in order to win the seat.

FPTP is a better system in my view. Whoever wins the most votes is elected.
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I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

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freediver
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #55 - May 21st, 2019 at 7:09pm
 
Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 6:21pm:
freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:41pm:
FPTP is by definition minority. If there are 10 candidates, you can win with as little as 10% of the vote.


Which actually makes it easier for minority parties to be elected since they would need to swing a small percentage of voters in order to win the seat.

FPTP is a better system in my view. Whoever wins the most votes is elected.


So if party A gets 10% of the vote, you are happy for them to win, even if 90% of the population prefer party B?

Do you understand how FPTP destroys minor parties? Are you happy for strategic voting to eliminate the minor parties because people try to make up for the flaws of FPTP voting?

Have you give up on your other reform idea because you realise voters are not there to make life easy for politicians?
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Frank
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #56 - May 21st, 2019 at 7:16pm
 
The Hillary mob called for electoral reform when they lost.

Now the Billary crowd are doing the same.

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Gnads
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #57 - May 21st, 2019 at 8:03pm
 
Both the LNP and Labor have short or very selective memories when it comes to whinging about the other side using dirty tricks.
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #58 - May 21st, 2019 at 10:38pm
 
Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 6:21pm:
freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:41pm:
FPTP is by definition minority. If there are 10 candidates, you can win with as little as 10% of the vote.


Which actually makes it easier for minority parties to be elected since they would need to swing a small percentage of voters in order to win the seat.

FPTP is a better system in my view. Whoever wins the most votes is elected.


MY point is those minor parties would NOT get that swing with a host of unpleasant policies..... if they have the right mix of policies, they will get the votes... and not be over-run by preferences to the majors, which is one of the bug-bears of our current system.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #59 - May 21st, 2019 at 10:41pm
 
Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 6:18pm:
So, for most of our history when one party has controlled the House of Reps, you're saying that this has been wrong??

Second of all, the government is the party which controls the majority of seats in the House of Reps. That's what the system is, if you don't like it then join in drafting a new Constitution for a new Australian Republic.


I said Absolute Control - as thing stand, unlike your approach, we have a check and balance system in place with the Senate for a start, then the courts, then the people...  If you hand to the incumbent party absolute power, there are no checks and balances.

That is why I argue that there is NO absolute mandate.... nor should there be.  We do NOT want a Nazi or Stalinist government here.... which, even if they do not know it, is precisely the form of government in many Asian countries.... I chose Singapore as an example...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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