Australian Politics Forum - Voting reform in the House of Reps

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #30 - May 19^th, 2019 at 10:21pm

Sounds dangerous - no party is guaranteed a comfortable majority so as to enforce its every ideological whim - that's why we have the system we have... including the senate - to keep check on the bastards in their fantasies...

You are demanding a de facto absolute mandate for the party in power.... seems you forget they are in power in Parliament - and nowhere else...

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Auggie

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #31 - May 20^th, 2019 at 7:16pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 9:39pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:50pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm:

You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.

Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.

You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.

It's a better system because it's creates stability.

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Auggie

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #32 - May 20^th, 2019 at 7:17pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 10:21pm:

Sounds dangerous - no party is guaranteed a comfortable majority so as to enforce its every ideological whim - that's why we have the system we have... including the senate - to keep check on the bastards in their fantasies...

You are demanding a de facto absolute mandate for the party in power.... seems you forget they are in power in Parliament - and nowhere else...

So, for most of our political history when one political party has controlled a majority of seats has been completely wrong?

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freediver

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #33 - May 20^th, 2019 at 7:25pm

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:16pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 9:39pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:50pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm:

You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.

Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.

You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.

It's a better system because it's creates stability.

It does the exact opposite. It will hand parliamentary majorities to alternating ends of the political spectrum who only have support of 40% of the public. It randomly discards the will of the people and hands out seats based on a whimsical, arbitrary criteria. It would also reintroduce an incentive for strategic voting.

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Auggie

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #34 - May 20^th, 2019 at 7:39pm

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:16pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 9:39pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:50pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm:

You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.

Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.

You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.

It's a better system because it's creates stability.

It does the exact opposite. It will hand parliamentary majorities to alternating ends of the political spectrum who only have support of 40% of the public. It randomly discards the will of the people and hands out seats based on a whimsical, arbitrary criteria. It would also reintroduce an incentive for strategic voting.

40% of the electorate is hardly 'alternating ends of the political spectrum'. Both Labor and Liberal are capable of meeting the 40% criteria very easily. And if a third party were to ever gain the support of 40% of the electorate then they would gain a majority of the seats.

Edit: and it creates stability because that party will have a majority in the House of Reps. This will create certainly for the party in power and probably reduce revolving Prime Ministers.

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freediver

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #35 - May 20^th, 2019 at 7:54pm

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:39pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:16pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 9:39pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:50pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm:

You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.

Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.

You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.

It's a better system because it's creates stability.

It does the exact opposite. It will hand parliamentary majorities to alternating ends of the political spectrum who only have support of 40% of the public. It randomly discards the will of the people and hands out seats based on a whimsical, arbitrary criteria. It would also reintroduce an incentive for strategic voting.

40% of the electorate is hardly 'alternating ends of the political spectrum'. Both Labor and Liberal are capable of meeting the 40% criteria very easily. And if a third party were to ever gain the support of 40% of the electorate then they would gain a majority of the seats.

Edit: and it creates stability because that party will have a majority in the House of Reps. This will create certainly for the party in power and probably reduce revolving Prime Ministers.

That is not stability Auggie. It is the opposite.

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Auggie

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #36 - May 20^th, 2019 at 7:59pm

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:54pm:

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:39pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 7:16pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 9:39pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:50pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm:

You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.

Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.

You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.

It's a better system because it's creates stability.

It does the exact opposite. It will hand parliamentary majorities to alternating ends of the political spectrum who only have support of 40% of the public. It randomly discards the will of the people and hands out seats based on a whimsical, arbitrary criteria. It would also reintroduce an incentive for strategic voting.

40% of the electorate is hardly 'alternating ends of the political spectrum'. Both Labor and Liberal are capable of meeting the 40% criteria very easily. And if a third party were to ever gain the support of 40% of the electorate then they would gain a majority of the seats.

Edit: and it creates stability because that party will have a majority in the House of Reps. This will create certainly for the party in power and probably reduce revolving Prime Ministers.

That is not stability Auggie. It is the opposite.

How is that not stability?

Are you implying that the Liberals who have 74 seats in the House of Reps who have to rely on at least 3 independents is more stable that the Liberals having 90 seats in the House of Reps?

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freediver

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #37 - May 20^th, 2019 at 8:06pm

Auggie, you are confusing parliamentary stability with stable government. They are not the same thing. It would really help if you would actually explain what you are trying to achieve rather than expecting people to guess.

You are completely missing the point of parliamentary democracy. It is not to make the jobs of politicians simple and easy with clear job descriptions. It is to give the public the legislation they deserve based on a mandate of majority support.

Tell us which to the following two scenarios are more stable in real terms:

A) Minority government with several changes in PM and shifting coalitions to maintain a majority of seats in the lower house. No meaningful legislation actually gets passed.

B) Majority government by a party with only 40% support. They repeal all the legislation introduced by the previous undeserved majority government because it had no public mandate, then introduce their own alternative legislation that is also without public mandate. Everyone can see it coming and is certain it will happen. Next election the opposing party changes it all back again. People stop voting for minor parties to try to ensure their side of politics hits the 40% mark and the other side does not get a plurality in all states.

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Auggie

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #38 - May 20^th, 2019 at 8:08pm

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 8:06pm:

B) Majority government by a party with only 40% support. They repeal all the legislation introduced by the previous undeserved majority government because it had no public mandate, then introduce their own alternative legislation that is also without public mandate. Everyone can see it coming and is certain it will happen. Next election the opposing party changes it all back again. People stop voting for minor parties to try to ensure their side of politics hits the 40% mark and the other side does not get a plurality in all states.

This is more stable.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47313 At my desk.	Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps Reply #39 - May 20^th, 2019 at 8:09pm You are completely missing the point of parliamentary democracy. It is not to make the jobs of politicians simple and easy with clear job descriptions. It is to give the public the legislation they deserve based on a mandate of majority support.
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Auggie

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #40 - May 20^th, 2019 at 8:12pm

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 8:09pm:

You are completely missing the point of parliamentary democracy. It is not to make the jobs of politicians simple and easy with clear job descriptions. It is to give the public the legislation they deserve based on a mandate of majority support.

Wrong. The point of parliamentary democracy is that the government is the party or coalition that controls a majority in the lower House.

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John Smith

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #41 - May 20^th, 2019 at 8:36pm

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 8:12pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 8:09pm:

You are completely missing the point of parliamentary democracy. It is not to make the jobs of politicians simple and easy with clear job descriptions. It is to give the public the legislation they deserve based on a mandate of majority support.

Wrong. The point of parliamentary democracy is that the government is the party or coalition that controls a majority in the lower House.

disagree.

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Auggie

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #42 - May 20^th, 2019 at 8:49pm

John Smith wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 8:36pm:

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 8:12pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 8:09pm:

You are completely missing the point of parliamentary democracy. It is not to make the jobs of politicians simple and easy with clear job descriptions. It is to give the public the legislation they deserve based on a mandate of majority support.

Wrong. The point of parliamentary democracy is that the government is the party or coalition that controls a majority in the lower House.

disagree.

Those are the facts.

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freediver

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #43 - May 20^th, 2019 at 10:03pm

Auggie, the voters and the democracy are not there to serve the politicians. You got it backwards. You have been so bamboozled by the intense media coverage of changing PM's and shifting coalitions between and within parties that you have mistaken the means to an end for the end itself. None of that really matters. The legislation we end up with does. Let the politicians live in disarray so that we have stable law, not the other way round.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #44 - May 20^th, 2019 at 11:45pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 12:24pm:

Get rid of preferencing. It’s a farce that gives is morons who win seats regardless of the fact another candidate wins thousands more votes than them.

Totally agree... if your policies are not popular enough for you to gain a large enough vote - they should be reserved for negotiation later and 'lobbying' - not handed an automatic credence by being a 'preference' vote.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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