Australian Politics Forum - Voting reform in the House of Reps

Bam

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #15 - May 19^th, 2019 at 4:29pm

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 1:26pm:

If you accept the effectiveness of the parliamentary system of government, then the way that it's most effective if one party controls the House of Reps in order to implement its agenda.

No. Then we get bad laws getting passed too often. The Senate would be the only defence against bad laws and as we have seen recently, the Senate will tend to wave through bad legislation. Worse, the governing party gets a majority in both houses. Last time that happened, we got Workchoices.

Back to top

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

IP Logged

Bam

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #16 - May 19^th, 2019 at 4:47pm

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 11:02am:

The proposal goes like this:

We abolish electorates for good and instead members represent the entire State as one electorate (much like the Senate). At election time, the voters vote for the political party of their choice in closed-lists. For e.g.

1) ALP

2) Liberal

3) National

And so forth..

All voters need to do is mark which party they vote for.

When counting the votes, all votes are tallied on a nationwide scale. Whichever party receives and at least 40% of the nationwide vote AND receives a plurality of votes will automatically gain 90 seats (of 150) in the House of Reps, which seats will be allocated in each State respectively.

Won't work as designed. It may tend to entrench one party in power if one major party can consistently get 40% of the vote and the other does not.

A better alternative is the Parliament of New Zealand. They use mixed member proportional: members in local seats, topped up from party lists to get proportional representation. A party needs to win one local seat or get 5% of the list vote to get representation.

Every NZ government since they introduced MMP has been a coalition, often negotiated after the fact. It may seem unstable, yet it works. Coalitions are more stable if they don't propose bad legislation, so it acts to moderate laws. Extremist crap doesn't flourish.

An Australian version might abolish 40% of the local seats in each state and replace them with statewide party lists so the number of seats remains the same. The Constitution only specifies the apportionment of seats among the states but does not mandate any particular method of filling those seats.

The disadvantage of MMP or any other similar form of proportional representation is it would allow fringe parties to be elected. This is why such systems have a minimum threshold for election, such as the 5% minimum that is used in New Zealand. In practice, a 5% threshold would only come into play for states with 20 seats or more: NSW, Victoria and Queensland.

Back to top

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #17 - May 19^th, 2019 at 7:25pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 3:05pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 1:26pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 1:01pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 12:54pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 12:35pm:

I cannot give you an example from Australia because the system works fairly well at preventing it from happening. If your argument is that the system might continue to function as you make it worse, I will give you that, but it is still a terrible idea. Also, there is no guarantee, as you suggest, that they would not be able to get legislation through the senate also.

Your proposal is also fundamentally undemocratic and an arbitrary allocation of power.

So, you think the system is fundamentally undemocratic and an arbitrary allocation of power but you can't give me an example of how it would be 'fundamentally democratic' and an arbitrary allocation of power?

Is this similar to the argument that you make when you say that 'all Muslims support terrorism' but can't give examples of 'all Muslims who support terrorism?'

Correct. I cannot give any examples from Australia's past of how stupid your idea is. It is unprecedented.

Having one party control the House of Reps is not unprecedented. In fact, the opposite is only a recent phenomenon.

Edit: FD, if you're implying that majority government in a parliamentary system is undemocratic, then perhaps you would support have a proportional representation in the House of Reps?? Given that no party has achieved a %50+1 in the majority of elections (at least recently) this would essentially mean that we would have a coalition government, which would, according to you, be better for democracy.

If you accept the effectiveness of the parliamentary system of government, then the way that it's most effective if one party controls the House of Reps in order to implement its agenda.

Even if 60% of the voting public oppose that agenda?

Correct, because that's how the system works.

By the way, as it is, a party can gain a majority with less than 50% of the vote, so I don't know why your outrage is limited to my proposal and not to single-member electorates in general?

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #18 - May 19^th, 2019 at 7:26pm

Bam wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 4:29pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 1:26pm:

If you accept the effectiveness of the parliamentary system of government, then the way that it's most effective if one party controls the House of Reps in order to implement its agenda.

No. Then we get bad laws getting passed too often. The Senate would be the only defence against bad laws and as we have seen recently, the Senate will tend to wave through bad legislation. Worse, the governing party gets a majority in both houses. Last time that happened, we got Workchoices.

So, for the majority of Australia's political history where most elections have produced a parliamentary majority by one party, we have had an insanely bad system of government??

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #19 - May 19^th, 2019 at 7:28pm

Bam wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 4:47pm:

Won't work as designed. It may tend to entrench one party in power if one major party can consistently get 40% of the vote and the other does not.

That's up to the people to decide. If 40% of the electorate continue electing the same party, then that's up to the electorate.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps Reply #20 - May 19^th, 2019 at 7:35pm John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 1:40pm: a stupid idea. The senate was designed that way for a reason. People crying for changes to the senate just so they can ram their ideas through should probably not be in govt. in the first place. My proposal targets the House of Reps, not the Senate.
Back to top	The Progressive President IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47356
At my desk.

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #21 - May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:25pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 3:05pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 1:26pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 1:01pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 12:54pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 12:35pm:

I cannot give you an example from Australia because the system works fairly well at preventing it from happening. If your argument is that the system might continue to function as you make it worse, I will give you that, but it is still a terrible idea. Also, there is no guarantee, as you suggest, that they would not be able to get legislation through the senate also.

Your proposal is also fundamentally undemocratic and an arbitrary allocation of power.

So, you think the system is fundamentally undemocratic and an arbitrary allocation of power but you can't give me an example of how it would be 'fundamentally democratic' and an arbitrary allocation of power?

Is this similar to the argument that you make when you say that 'all Muslims support terrorism' but can't give examples of 'all Muslims who support terrorism?'

Correct. I cannot give any examples from Australia's past of how stupid your idea is. It is unprecedented.

Having one party control the House of Reps is not unprecedented. In fact, the opposite is only a recent phenomenon.

Edit: FD, if you're implying that majority government in a parliamentary system is undemocratic, then perhaps you would support have a proportional representation in the House of Reps?? Given that no party has achieved a %50+1 in the majority of elections (at least recently) this would essentially mean that we would have a coalition government, which would, according to you, be better for democracy.

If you accept the effectiveness of the parliamentary system of government, then the way that it's most effective if one party controls the House of Reps in order to implement its agenda.

Even if 60% of the voting public oppose that agenda?

Correct, because that's how the system works.

By the way, as it is, a party can gain a majority with less than 50% of the vote, so I don't know why your outrage is limited to my proposal and not to single-member electorates in general?

You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours. You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps Reply #22 - May 19^th, 2019 at 7:50pm freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm: You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours. Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.
Back to top	The Progressive President IP Logged

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps Reply #23 - May 19^th, 2019 at 8:04pm we have one of the most stable, successful systems of government in the world. Why change it? you seem to have a desire to change everything Auggie. Don't fix what isn't broke.
Back to top	Our esteemed leader: I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus. IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #24 - May 19^th, 2019 at 8:13pm

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:04pm:

we have one of the most stable, successful systems of government in the world. Why change it?

you seem to have a desire to change everything Auggie. Don't fix what isn't broke.

I'm not changing anything, JS. I'm simply improving on an existing system.

I would disagree that we have stability - no PM has completed a full term in government since 2007. I'd hardly call that stable or even successful.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

John Smith

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 72209
Gender: male

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #25 - May 19^th, 2019 at 8:16pm

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:13pm:

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:04pm:

we have one of the most stable, successful systems of government in the world. Why change it?

you seem to have a desire to change everything Auggie. Don't fix what isn't broke.

I'm not changing anything, JS. I'm simply improving on an existing system.

I would disagree that we have stability - no PM has completed a full term in government since 2007. I'd hardly call that stable or even successful.

so you don't want to change thing? Then why the need for this thread?

as to your second point, we don't vote for pm's auggie .... but that is now a moot point, I believe that problem has now taken care of itself.

Back to top

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #26 - May 19^th, 2019 at 8:17pm

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:16pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:13pm:

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:04pm:

we have one of the most stable, successful systems of government in the world. Why change it?

you seem to have a desire to change everything Auggie. Don't fix what isn't broke.

I'm not changing anything, JS. I'm simply improving on an existing system.

I would disagree that we have stability - no PM has completed a full term in government since 2007. I'd hardly call that stable or even successful.

so you don't want to change thing? Then why the need for this thread?

as to your second point, we don't vote for pm's auggie .... but that is now a moot point, I believe that problem has now taken care of itself.

Because I'm trying to improve it.

As to the second point, exactly we vote for the party to form government, so why not let them form government??

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

John Smith

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 72209
Gender: male

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #27 - May 19^th, 2019 at 8:25pm

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:17pm:

Because I'm trying to improve it.

by changing it.

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:17pm:

As to the second point, exactly we vote for the party to form government, so why not let them form government??

no, we vote for our local representatives to represent us in parliament no matter who forms government.

Back to top

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #28 - May 19^th, 2019 at 9:03pm

John Smith wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:17pm:

Because I'm trying to improve it.

by changing it.

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 8:17pm:

As to the second point, exactly we vote for the party to form government, so why not let them form government??

no, we vote for our local representatives to represent us in parliament no matter who forms government.

Coincidentally then they just happen to be, in the majority of cases, a member of a political party who is either part of the government or who isn't, and coincidentally, vote along party lines...

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47356
At my desk.

Re: Voting reform in the House of Reps
Reply #29 - May 19^th, 2019 at 9:39pm

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:50pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2019 at 7:44pm:

You are turning a possible flaw in the current system into the basis of yours.

Incorrect, I am simply stating that if you're against my proposal then you're essentially against our entire system of government.

You cannot even be honest about what you are saying. You claim to be improving the system, but all you are doing is discarding the good bits and turning the flaws into the basis of a new, truly terrible system.

You can come up with excuses and justifications all day, but you cannot come up with a good reason. It's and entirely arbitrary change that could only make things worse. I cannot figure out why you want it or why you are carrying on the way you do in response to criticism. You don't know why you are improving the system. You don't know how your proposal makes the system any better. You don't know what better even is. You spent about 5 seconds coming up with a scheme and want us to explain everything to you.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged