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Muslims: slavery benefits society (Read 2869 times)
freediver
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Muslims: slavery benefits society
May 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:21am:
freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
The Europeans did everything greater than the Muslims Gandalf. That includes both trading slaves and ending slavery. Trading in pretty much everything really.

Are you changing the subject because you are conceding all your previous points were wrong?


I'm questioning your claim that the Europeans spent a millenia "working" to end slavery - right before they set up and ran the greatest slave trade the world has ever known.

Quote:
Do you still think slavery benefits society?


Of course it does - when its not your society being enslaved. And by "your society" I mean the whole of western Europe. You present the mother of all cop-out arguments by pointing to the lack of slaves physically present on European soil as some testament to European's embracing freedom - while neglecting to mention the greatest slave trade the world had ever seen they were running on the side.

The European economies during that time had the best of both worlds - they had the liberalised markets in their own societies, while able to reap all the benefits of slavery - and avoiding all the pitfalls you eloquently mention. Funny you spend all this time making the 'slaves = bad for economy" argument by pontificating how Europeans benefited from slaves being removed from their own society - you've never really addressed the benefits Europeans get from running a slave market *OUTSIDE* their own society. That is, where slavery on the supply chain feeds into a largely economic liberal society.


What benefits Gandalf? I do not address them because they are all in your head, and you will not let them out. In the southern US, the slave-based economy kept society largely agrarian and backwards, and contributed to their loss of the civil war. It stifled innovation, as it does everywhere. The eradication of slavery caused no lasting economic harm. Cotton production for example was back to the old levels a few years after the civil war, with free blacks and whites doing the picking. And it would be ludicrous to suggest the American power and wealth since then was a result of them riding the coat-tails of southern cotton farmers.

The industrial revolution in western Europe did not rely on slavery either. It happened there because of the absence of slavery.

You are confusing correlation with causation, nothing more. You see slavery up to a point in history, and out of desperation try to credit European hegemony to it. You are desperate because there has never been a significant anti-slavery movement in Islam, while slavery declined in Europe from the early days of Christianity. The eradication of slavery in the Middle East and North Africa did, and still does, require  western intervention.

You also appear to be applying the mindless collective argument to Europeans, as if they are collectively responsible for what others from the same continent did when they left the continent, or had some unified collective intent.
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #1 - May 17th, 2019 at 1:27pm
 
Jeezez! That's the same belief as capitalism.
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #2 - May 17th, 2019 at 3:02pm
 
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm:
What benefits Gandalf? I do not address them because they are all in your head,


So creating and running the greatest slave trade the world has ever known had zero benefits to the societies that ran them?

Damn, they must have missed the memo...

Quote:
The industrial revolution in western Europe did not rely on slavery either.


Tell me FD, which people worked the plantations that produced the raw materials for the first mass consumer markets in Europe - including tobacco, sugar, coffee?
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« Last Edit: May 17th, 2019 at 3:07pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #3 - May 17th, 2019 at 3:09pm
 
Laugh till you cry wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:27pm:
Jeezez! That's the same belief as capitalism.



thinking along the same lines

slavery's more organised and puts a cap on the unrealistic expectations of the masses.  They know where they stand.  Stops them getting uppity with ideas above their station

and the slave's life wasn't too bad as long as they knew their place

they need to bring it back

and as long as any form of media is prohibited, people would adapt
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #4 - May 17th, 2019 at 3:15pm
 
The ones who the muzzies want to turn into eunuchs might object, methinks.
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #5 - May 17th, 2019 at 3:20pm
 
moses wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 3:15pm:
The ones who the muzzies want to turn into eunuchs might object, methinks.



ready built choirs and harem security guards already and waiting

LGBTIXYZ
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #6 - May 17th, 2019 at 10:02pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm:
What benefits Gandalf? I do not address them because they are all in your head,


So creating and running the greatest slave trade the world has ever known had zero benefits to the societies that ran them?

Damn, they must have missed the memo...

Quote:
The industrial revolution in western Europe did not rely on slavery either.


Tell me FD, which people worked the plantations that produced the raw materials for the first mass consumer markets in Europe - including tobacco, sugar, coffee?


FD won't say, G. Whitey banned slavery in 300 AD, remember. Britains never never never shall be slaves, you know.
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #7 - May 17th, 2019 at 10:26pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm:
What benefits Gandalf? I do not address them because they are all in your head,


So creating and running the greatest slave trade the world has ever known had zero benefits to the societies that ran them?

Damn, they must have missed the memo...

Quote:
The industrial revolution in western Europe did not rely on slavery either.


Tell me FD, which people worked the plantations that produced the raw materials for the first mass consumer markets in Europe - including tobacco, sugar, coffee?

Muslims have been the most significant slave traders. They still are.  Islam permits slavery. Christianity does not.  You Muslims are the most dishonest arsecoveres and dissembling liars in any discussion about slavery - and most other things.
Come clean and tell us about slaving by muslims.
You will not because dishonesty and dissembling is what muslims and Islam are all about. You will NEVER be honest when talking to an unbeliever. I would not trust a Muslim to be honest in a discussion about anything to do with Islam because the Koran tells you not to be.
You are all koranically authorised to be dishonest liars.



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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #8 - May 17th, 2019 at 11:43pm
 
Frank wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:26pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm:
What benefits Gandalf? I do not address them because they are all in your head,


So creating and running the greatest slave trade the world has ever known had zero benefits to the societies that ran them?

Damn, they must have missed the memo...

Quote:
The industrial revolution in western Europe did not rely on slavery either.


Tell me FD, which people worked the plantations that produced the raw materials for the first mass consumer markets in Europe - including tobacco, sugar, coffee?

Muslims have been the most significant slave traders. They still are.  Islam permits slavery. Christianity does not.  You Muslims are the most dishonest arsecoveres and dissembling liars in any discussion about slavery - and most other things.


"Slaves, obey your earthly masters". Peter 2:18.

Dishonest arsecoverers and dissembling liars, innit.

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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #9 - May 18th, 2019 at 8:44am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm:
What benefits Gandalf? I do not address them because they are all in your head,


So creating and running the greatest slave trade the world has ever known had zero benefits to the societies that ran them?

Damn, they must have missed the memo...

Quote:
The industrial revolution in western Europe did not rely on slavery either.


Tell me FD, which people worked the plantations that produced the raw materials for the first mass consumer markets in Europe - including tobacco, sugar, coffee?


It was not slaves in the Americas Gandalf. It was initially grown elsewhere in the world. You are still making the fundamental logical error of assuming that because slavery existed, it benefited society, and the intellectually lazy leap from there to concluding that the European hegemony relied on slavery outside of Europe rather than liberal labor markets inside Europe.

Slavery was discarded, but the hegemony continued, and was only matched by other societies, mostly east asian, as they adopted similarly liberal economic policies.

Slavery has always harmed the societies in which it occurs. That is a large part of the reason why the Muslim world stagnated while Europe leaped ahead, despite the efforts of Muslims to cut them off from the rest of the world. As a Muslim, you like to think it was because the Europeans beat the Muslims at slavery, but it was because they beat them at freedom - initially within Europe, and then within the other parts of the world they gained control of. Your efforts to defend Islam's history require you to invent a narrative of slavery being beneficial, but all you have is the story, based on arm waving and mistaking correlation with causation.

Slavery destroys any incentive on the part of the slave or the slave owner. A slave gets no benefit from working harder or innovating. They spend their life trying to do just enough work to avoid punishment. A slave owner has no incentive to innovate because he becomes disinterested in the toils of physical labour. A slave owner's main interest is preserving the status quo. They have a real fear of change of any kind - as it could end with their head on a stake. It is similar to the position of an oppressive  dictator compared to an elected leader, with the same consequences for society. Within the US prior to the civil war the consequences are clear. The south had stagnated for a long time. The north was innovating, progressing and industrialising.

It was a visiting yankee who came up with a key invention for cotton ginning in the southern US. He saw a slave toiling away, and his natural instinct was to come up with a machine to reduce the physical burden of the work. Neither the slave nor the slave owner had such an instinct, but it had become a driving force in the northern economy.

Back in Europe, when the poor were given the opportunity to improve their lot in life through hard work, a lot of them ended up working harder than slaves elsewhere in the world. Meanwhile, the Muslims continued their rape evangelism and constantly shitting on each other's plate.
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« Last Edit: May 18th, 2019 at 8:52am by freediver »  

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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #10 - May 18th, 2019 at 9:38am
 
Japan and Germany didn't have liberal policies prior to the war, FD, but they rivalled Mother and Uncle in production.

Japan had labour camps and forced Asian labour. Germany had entire populations of indentured labourers and millions in concentration camps. They were critical to Nazi economic planning.

The USSR then had its gulag archipelago. Hard to say if this helped the Soviets reach their production targets, but as Germany and Japan surpassed Mother before the war, the USSR overtook her after it. As Mother lost her colonies, the Soviets expanded west, occupying all of Eastern and Eastern Central Europe.

Let's face it, the only way Mother could hold hegemony was with her colonies. After the war, US foreign policy and independence movements saw the end to that. The Soviets and Americans divided influence in the colonies (and their markets) between them.

WWII was a war over all these things. The real victors of WWII were the Soviets, as every schoolboy knows. Soviet troops fought off the Germans with their own guns aimed at their backs, preventing their retreat.

Freedom of labour might be a value we all hold, but when you're an Alpha, you use slaves.

Quote:
Slavery destroys any incentive on the part of the slave or the slave owner. A slave gets no benefit from working harder or innovating. They spend their life trying to do just enough work to avoid punishment


Slavery destroys incentive? The same applies to wage-labour. See Engels' Conditions of the Working Class in England as a case in point.

We might have progressed, but there's a world outside Mother England.

Quote:
It was a visiting yankee who came up with a key invention for cotton ginning in the southern US. He saw a slave toiling away, and his natural instinct was to come up with a machine to reduce the physical burden of the work.


Ah, the liberal instincts of the Yankee inventor. Ah, the reactionary instincts of the Deep South, who waged a civil war to keep their slaves.

Quote:
Back in Europe, when the poor were given the opportunity to improve their lot in life through hard work, a lot of them ended up working harder than slaves elsewhere in the world.


Workers during the industrial revolution might have worked harder than slaves because they had 12 hour shifts, 6 and a half days a week. Factory workers don't "improve their lot" by working harder, the pace of machines determine output. It was only with unionisation that workers were able to sit down with bosses and discuss productivity, then innovate to improve their own performance. This, of course, came with conditions.

In the colonies, indentured labourers were no more than slaves. They could improve output on plantations by working harder, but the only incentive was to avoid the whip of the overseer.

The more sensible way to incentivise workers would have been to pay per bushel or pound, but the colonies didn't work like that. There was no way to improve your lot by working harder. You worked or you got sent home - with no money for the ticket and no way of getting back. The American railroads were built in similar conditions by Chinese coolies.

The very idea of improving your lot by working harder was pushed by the Nazis with the ironic concentration camp greeting: arbeit macht frei.

Freedom, as inmates quickly found out, meant death.

These slave conditions delivered the goods. Without a doubt, they allowed Mother and Amerika and the Huns and Soviets to lift output and become economically dominant. Slaves produce wealth, just not for themselves.

I'd be interested to read a study on the comparative output of free labour - i.e, workers who are able to leave when they choose.

You haven't provided that, FD. So far, you've merely broadcast the ideology.

Freeeedom, innit.
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« Last Edit: May 18th, 2019 at 2:19pm by Mattyfisk »  
 
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #11 - May 18th, 2019 at 2:29pm
 
Quote:
Japan and Germany didn't have liberal policies prior to the war, FD, but they rivalled Mother and Uncle in production.


Germany had been conquered by Napoleon, who liberalised the place significantly. The footprint of the French empire in Europe lines up pretty well with the wealthiest and most liberal democracies today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire

From 1867 to 1878/9, Otto von Bismarck's tenure as the first and to this day longest reigning Chancellor was marked by relative liberalism, but it became more conservative afterwards.

Although authoritarian in many respects, the empire had some democratic features. Besides universal suffrage, it permitted the development of political parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

The French Revolution (French: Révolution française [ʁevɔlysjɔ̃ fʁɑ̃sɛːz]) was a period of far-reaching social and political upheaval in France and its colonies beginning in 1789. The Revolution overthrew the monarchy, established a republic, catalyzed violent periods of political turmoil, and finally culminated in a dictatorship under Napoleon who brought many of its principles to areas he conquered in Western Europe and beyond. Inspired by liberal and radical ideas, the Revolution profoundly altered the course of modern history, triggering the global decline of absolute monarchies while replacing them with republics and liberal democracies.

Japan also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Japan#Economic_development

By the 1890s, however, the Meiji had successfully established a modern institutional framework that would transform Japan into an advanced capitalist economy.

From the onset, the Meiji rulers embraced the concept of a market economy and adopted British and North American forms of free enterprise capitalism.

Quote:
Let's face it, the only way Mother could hold hegemony was with her colonies.


England gained it with a merchant navy.

Quote:
Slavery destroys incentive? The same applies to wage-labour.


No it doesn't.

Quote:
Workers during the industrial revolution might have worked harder than slaves because they had 12 hour shifts, 6 and a half days a week.


You are completely missing the point. They worked harder because they chose to. Most mine and gas sites today have 12 hour shifts, yet their workers are among the highest paid.

Quote:
Factory workers don't "improve their lot" by working harder,


Crap. That's what getting a job in a factory meant.

Quote:
In the colonies, indentured labourers were no more than slaves. They could improve output on plantations by working harder, but the only incentive was to avoid the whip of the overseer.


See, you do recognise the impact of slavery on incentives after all.

Quote:
I'd be interested to read a study on the comparative output of free labour - i.e, workers who are able to leave when they choose.


You are confusing a factory with a drop-in centre. Just because your boss demands a 9 to 5 regimen does not mean you are unable to leave when you choose. It just means he might not let you back in.

Quote:
I'd be interested to read a study on the comparative output of free labour - i.e, workers who are able to leave when they choose.


If you owned a slave or three, would you worker harder?
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« Last Edit: May 18th, 2019 at 2:42pm by freediver »  

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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #12 - May 18th, 2019 at 4:34pm
 
You still haven't shown a comparison in output between wage-labour and slavery, FD. The arbiter of this debate is productivity.

For example, was it cheaper in the Nazi era to work Jews to death in concentration camps than to employ Germans on award wages and conditions?

Companies like IG Farben believed it was. They begged for more prisoners to increase output. Simultaneously, they sold the concentration camps the Zyclon B that killed many of those prisoners off. If this process didn't create wealth - in the short term at the very least - it wouldn't have been done by the private sector.

No one was holding a gun to the IG Farben board-members heads. Indeed, they were rewarded after the war with 2 to 3 year sentences for crimes against humanity and high-paid jobs when they got out.

There is no more incentive for workers receiving an hourly pay rate "to work harder" than there is for slaves who receive a bowl of watery soup and a piece of sawdust bread. Employee of the Month just doesn't cut it, dear.

The choice between the showers and the chemical factory - that's an incentive. It's the choice between life and death.

Indeed, such an incentive holds for many of the wage-paid jobs with slave-style conditions we've discussed.

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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #13 - May 18th, 2019 at 4:54pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 11:43pm:
Frank wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:26pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm:
What benefits Gandalf? I do not address them because they are all in your head,


So creating and running the greatest slave trade the world has ever known had zero benefits to the societies that ran them?

Damn, they must have missed the memo...

Quote:
The industrial revolution in western Europe did not rely on slavery either.


Tell me FD, which people worked the plantations that produced the raw materials for the first mass consumer markets in Europe - including tobacco, sugar, coffee?

Muslims have been the most significant slave traders. They still are.  Islam permits slavery. Christianity does not.  You Muslims are the most dishonest arsecoveres and dissembling liars in any discussion about slavery - and most other things.


"Slaves, obey your earthly masters". Peter 2:18.

Dishonest arsecoverers and dissembling liars, innit.


Oiketai means servants in Greek, not slaves, slimey.
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Re: Muslims: slavery benefits society
Reply #14 - May 18th, 2019 at 5:35pm
 
Quote:
You still haven't shown a comparison in output between wage-labour and slavery, FD. The arbiter of this debate is productivity.


I gave two examples already. A few years after the US civil war, cotton production in the US south was back to pre-war levels, with free whites and blacks doing the picking. Cotton is one of the strongest pro slavery examples people often give, due to the nature of the work involved at the time to pick it. The industrial revolution took off in nations with a free market in human labour because the factories were more productive there and people often worked harder than slaves. I'll add a third. Modern human productivity in the liberal democracies is infinitely higher today than under any slave based economy in world history.

Quote:
For example, was it cheaper in the Nazi era to work Jews to death in concentration camps than to employ Germans on award wages and conditions?


The concentration camps were a drain on the Nazi economy and war machine. They were not a profit centre.

Quote:
Companies like IG Farben believed it was.


Sure, but they were not paying for them. Any company will sing the virtues of a government handout. Like Ford and Holden telling us how wonderful subsidies were for the economy.

Quote:
There is no more incentive for workers receiving an hourly pay rate "to work harder" than there is for slaves who receive a bowl of watery soup and a piece of sawdust bread.


Yes there is, and they did. In my UK example, they worked longer hours. Not because their evil boss set 14 hour days, but because they chose to work 14 hour days. There is also an incentive for everyone to innovate.

Quote:
Employee of the Month just doesn't cut it, dear.


Being promoted or head hunted does. Simply being in control of your own destiny is enough.
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