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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin? (Read 1484 times)
UnSubRocky
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
May 20th, 2019 at 3:30pm
 
Indonesia could invade Darwin with its army and navy. If we had a prime minister like Kevin Rudd, he would surrender the whole country in a matter of a minute. It is not what the country would do to defend itself. It is what the politicians, most of whom were brought up in very privileged upbringings, who would decide if we were to be ruled under a foreign power. Politicians are in it for a good time, not a long time. They see as far as retirement.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #1 - May 20th, 2019 at 3:51pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
Indonesia could invade Darwin with its army and navy. If we had a prime minister like Kevin Rudd, he would surrender the whole country in a matter of a minute. It is not what the country would do to defend itself. It is what the politicians, most of whom were brought up in very privileged upbringings, who would decide if we were to be ruled under a foreign power. Politicians are in it for a good time, not a long time. They see as far as retirement.


Indonesia would be detected long before they even left harbour with the forces necessary to seize Darwin.   You also appear to no understand that since 1988, the majority of the Army has been resident in the Top End, away from the SE Corner of the continent.   The Indonesians would be faced by a brigade of troops, plus supporting elements.

Indonesia, in reality, would lack the ability to sustain more than a battalion in such an attack.  Their defence forces are heavily involved in the civilian economy, with their landing craft forming part of the inter-island movement of goods and vehicles.   Remove them and you cripple your civilian economy.

Indonesia would have only a handful of fighter aircraft, which would be opposed by a squadron of F/A-18A/B's and F/A-18F/Gs plus Wedgetail AWACs and MRTT inflight refuellers.

The Indonesian navy would have a small handful of escort ships for their landing force which would be opposed by at least a dozen surface combatants, plus three COLLINS class submarines.

So, all and all, it would be a hopeless expedition by Indonesia.

As for Australian politicians, I rather think everybody would be falling over themselves to create a "Thatcher Effect" for their next election by showing how they could stand up to the Indonesian attack.   Wouldn't matter if it was ScoMo or Rudd or Gillard or anybody else.  Granny with her walking stick would be effective.   Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: May 20th, 2019 at 11:25pm by Brian Ross »  

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UnSubRocky
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #2 - May 20th, 2019 at 9:20pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 3:51pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
Indonesia could invade Darwin with its army and navy. If we had a prime minister like Kevin Rudd, he would surrender the whole country in a matter of a minute. It is not what the country would do to defend itself. It is what the politicians, most of whom were brought up in very privileged upbringings, who would decide if we were to be ruled under a foreign power. Politicians are in it for a good time, not a long time. They see as far as retirement.


Indonesia would be detected long before they even left harbour with the forces necessary to seize Darwin.   You also appear to no understand that since 1988, the majority of the Army has been resident in the Top End, away from the SE Corner of the continent.   The Indonesians would be faced by a brigade of troops, plus supporting elements.

Indonesia, in reality, would lack the ability to sustain more than a battalion in such an attack.  Their defence forces are heavily involved in the civilian economy, with their landing craft forming part of the inter-island movement of goods and vehicles.   Remove them and you cripple your civilian economy.

Indonesia would have only a handful of fighter aircraft, which would be opposed by a squadron of F/A-18A/B's and F/A-18F/Gs plus Wedgetail AWACs and MRTT inflight refuellers.

The Indonesian navy would have a small handful of escort ships for their landing force which would be opposed by at least a dozen surface combatants, plus three COLLINS class submarines.

So, all and all, it would be a hopeless expedition by Indonesia.

As for Australian politicians, I rather think everybody would be falling over themselves to create a "Thatcher Effect" for their next election by showing how they could stand up to the Indonesian attack.   Wouldn't matter if it was ScoMo or Rudd or Gillard or anybody else.  Granny with her walking stick would be effective.   Roll Eyes


You have obviously missed the implication about a politician like Kevin Rudd surrendering the country to an invading force. And it would matter. We could have the best fighting force, with the latest military equipment, and Rudd-like politicians could probably fly the white flag within moments of the first boat showing up. It would take the knowledge of having a standing army of atleast 100,000 soldiers, plus nuclear weapons at our disposal before Kevin would consider Australia putting up a fight.

I can appreciate that our forces would put up a considerable fight. But there would be high-level losses, irrespective that the Indonesians would eat up their resources, manpower, and international trade relations within the first week.
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« Last Edit: May 20th, 2019 at 11:25pm by Brian Ross »  
 
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #3 - May 20th, 2019 at 11:36pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 9:20pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 3:51pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
Indonesia could invade Darwin with its army and navy. If we had a prime minister like Kevin Rudd, he would surrender the whole country in a matter of a minute. It is not what the country would do to defend itself. It is what the politicians, most of whom were brought up in very privileged upbringings, who would decide if we were to be ruled under a foreign power. Politicians are in it for a good time, not a long time. They see as far as retirement.


Indonesia would be detected long before they even left harbour with the forces necessary to seize Darwin.   You also appear to no understand that since 1988, the majority of the Army has been resident in the Top End, away from the SE Corner of the continent.   The Indonesians would be faced by a brigade of troops, plus supporting elements.

Indonesia, in reality, would lack the ability to sustain more than a battalion in such an attack.  Their defence forces are heavily involved in the civilian economy, with their landing craft forming part of the inter-island movement of goods and vehicles.   Remove them and you cripple your civilian economy.

Indonesia would have only a handful of fighter aircraft, which would be opposed by a squadron of F/A-18A/B's and F/A-18F/Gs plus Wedgetail AWACs and MRTT inflight refuellers.

The Indonesian navy would have a small handful of escort ships for their landing force which would be opposed by at least a dozen surface combatants, plus three COLLINS class submarines.

So, all and all, it would be a hopeless expedition by Indonesia.

As for Australian politicians, I rather think everybody would be falling over themselves to create a "Thatcher Effect" for their next election by showing how they could stand up to the Indonesian attack.   Wouldn't matter if it was ScoMo or Rudd or Gillard or anybody else.  Granny with her walking stick would be effective.   Roll Eyes


You have obviously missed the implication about a politician like Kevin Rudd surrendering the country to an invading force. And it would matter. We could have the best fighting force, with the latest military equipment, and Rudd-like politicians could probably fly the white flag within moments of the first boat showing up. It would take the knowledge of having a standing army of atleast 100,000 soldiers, plus nuclear weapons at our disposal before Kevin would consider Australia putting up a fight.


I think you undersell, Rudd.  I believe he'd put up quite a good fight.  Otherwise, he would be deposed ASAP by his fellow ALP members.  Rudd wasn't popular.  He was basically all furious action and no real motion in his Prime Ministership.  He couldn't delegate authority and he pissed off his subordinate ministers as a consequence.  It was why he lost the PM's position in the first night of the long knives.  He won it again and then lost the election. 

The size of our forces would be approximately equal to the best best the TNI could put ashore (assuming all their forces are put ashore, without loss).  You don't win battles with equal sized forces.  You win by outnumbering your opponent.   When coupled with our air and naval superiority, the TNI would be basically up s-hit creek in a barbed wire canoe without a paddle.

Quote:
I can appreciate that our forces would put up a considerable fight. But there would be high-level losses, irrespective that the Indonesians would eat up their resources, manpower, and international trade relations within the first week.


Wars are like making omelets.  You have to break eggs to do it.  Sure, we would have some losses but the Indonesians would have appreciably more.  Remember, they have to cross a sea-air gap to get to Darwin.  We don't.    We could surrender Darwin and still defeat the Indonesians by drawing them out and isolating them.   Australia has oodles of space and space equals time in military operations.   

What would Indonesia gain by capturing Darwin?  Basically bugger all.  They would have a small Australian population which they would then need to feed and shelter.   Failure to do so would open them up to charges for war crimes.  Any atrocities committed would mean they are charged with war crimes.   Darwin has nothing special about it.

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« Last Edit: May 20th, 2019 at 11:51pm by Brian Ross »  

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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #4 - May 20th, 2019 at 11:41pm
 
Indonesia does not have a reach capability. End of story as far as invading Australia. Possible they could grab something like Christmas Island but that would cost them not benefit them. Regardless, the TNI is basically an internal policing apparatus.
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #5 - May 20th, 2019 at 11:50pm
 
You should see all the Aussie white girls getting knocked up by Indo boys in Bali because Aussie blokes can't 'commit'.

Who needs missiles to conquer Australia.  Grin
Hell, look at 'Shang-hai Sydney' and Sudanese Melbourne.  Grin
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #6 - May 20th, 2019 at 11:50pm
 
rhino wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 11:41pm:
Indonesia does not have a reach capability. End of story as far as invading Australia. Possible they could grab something like Christmas Island but that would cost them not benefit them. Regardless, the TNI is basically an internal policing apparatus.


More or less correct.  They are basically two forces - the Kostrad, Kopassus and the rest.  Kostrad is approximately the same size as our regular army - roughly 30,000 men.  They are trained in conventional warfare and are equipped to fight it - in Indonesia. Kopassus is their special forces.  The rest of the armed services are basically internal security forces.  They are lightly equipped and are mainly used to control the population when it gets a bit restive.


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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #7 - May 21st, 2019 at 4:19am
 
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I think you undersell, Rudd.  I believe he'd put up quite a good fight.  Otherwise, he would be deposed ASAP by his fellow ALP members.  Rudd wasn't popular.  He was basically all furious action and no real motion in his Prime Ministership.  He couldn't delegate authority and he pissed off his subordinate ministers as a consequence.  It was why he lost the PM's position in the first night of the long knives.  He won it again and then lost the election.


I could not undersell Rudd, even if I had all the goss on whatever faults Rudd has in his personal and professional life. Nor would I try, if given the chance.

I have tried to embarrass and shame politicians in the past by calling them out on things. All that happened was I had a few nasty phone calls and some threats about losing job opportunities in the future.

Rudd turned out to be the moron of religious standings, more than as a politician. Though, he does have a flair for his Chinese language skills. That was where he should have stayed. As much of a smug bastard Morrison has been, he has shown more strength in politics than Rudd could in a lifetime of revising his political stamina.

Capricornia has become a bit of a safe seat in the federal election. Landry is getting a bit "on the nose" with voters in the region. But, it comes down to the fact Labor politicians like Rudd gave Rockhampton and surrounds a bit of a bad reputation for not adhering to Rudd's nonsensical view of religious fanaticism and elitism. We don't have an inferiority complex. Rudd has a superiority complex.
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #8 - May 21st, 2019 at 11:01am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 4:19am:
Quote:
I think you undersell, Rudd.  I believe he'd put up quite a good fight.  Otherwise, he would be deposed ASAP by his fellow ALP members.  Rudd wasn't popular.  He was basically all furious action and no real motion in his Prime Ministership.  He couldn't delegate authority and he pissed off his subordinate ministers as a consequence.  It was why he lost the PM's position in the first night of the long knives.  He won it again and then lost the election.


I could not undersell Rudd, even if I had all the goss on whatever faults Rudd has in his personal and professional life. Nor would I try, if given the chance.

I have tried to embarrass and shame politicians in the past by calling them out on things. All that happened was I had a few nasty phone calls and some threats about losing job opportunities in the future.

Rudd turned out to be the moron of religious standings, more than as a politician. Though, he does have a flair for his Chinese language skills. That was where he should have stayed. As much of a smug bastard Morrison has been, he has shown more strength in politics than Rudd could in a lifetime of revising his political stamina.

Capricornia has become a bit of a safe seat in the federal election. Landry is getting a bit "on the nose" with voters in the region. But, it comes down to the fact Labor politicians like Rudd gave Rockhampton and surrounds a bit of a bad reputation for not adhering to Rudd's nonsensical view of religious fanaticism and elitism. We don't have an inferiority complex. Rudd has a superiority complex.


You're straying away from the issues of Defence and Foreign Policy into domestic politics, UnSub.

Rudd had many failings but he still managed to become PM twice.   Which is better than most Australians manage at all.  He knew which side his bread was buttered on and would not surrender in the way you believe.   As far as religion is concerned, it should be kept right away from politics - a lesson that ScoMo is yet to learn.   Roll Eyes

Now, nothing else to say on Defence and Foreign Policy?
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #9 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:05pm
 
I wouldn't worry about Darwin being invaded by Indonesia.

Moslem Indonesia will have its hands full defending itself from annihilation via a concerted effort from Phillipines, PNG, Timorese, Balinese, Solomonians, Vanuatans, Caledonians, Micronesians, Irian Jayans, Borneans and other 'oppressed' indigenous non-Moslem Indos.

...oh, and Australian 'Mercenaries' in it for the thrill of 'freeing peoples'.  Tongue

I think Darwin is full of these people and Moslem Indos anyway, just like Broome. What is to invade when the Sperm does the trick better.
Like Brian says -
"It's a 'numbers' thing"
Wink
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #10 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:13pm
 
Agree 100% with Brian here but there are two threats Indonesia poses to Nth Australia

1/ Sea born rubbish washing up on our shores
2/ A staging point for illegals

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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #11 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:50pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on May 20th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
Indonesia could invade Darwin with its army and navy. If we had a prime minister like Kevin Rudd, he would surrender the whole country in a matter of a minute. It is not what the country would do to defend itself. It is what the politicians, most of whom were brought up in very privileged upbringings, who would decide if we were to be ruled under a foreign power. Politicians are in it for a good time, not a long time. They see as far as retirement.

we don't have a prime minister like rudd and he hasn't been in politics for awhile, are you thinking of a polly now that reminds you of rudd your worried about ?
Or are you just saying...Wink
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #12 - May 21st, 2019 at 5:03pm
 
Gordon wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:13pm:
Agree 100% with Brian here but there are two threats Indonesia poses to Nth Australia

1/ Sea born rubbish washing up on our shores
2/ A staging point for illegals



1. If we help them, we will see the sea borne rubbish decrease.

2. If we pay them sufficiently, we won't see human traffickers get a start again in Indonesian territory.

Indonesia itself, as a nation state is no threat to Australia.   It's military forces are too small and too weak to constitute a threat.   Socially, Islamism could be a threat but it would be just as much to the Indonesian Government as it would be to Australia.

People have to stop crying "Yellow Peril!" at every opportunity and actually analyze what Indonesia is and can do.
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #13 - May 22nd, 2019 at 2:32am
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 11:01am:
You're straying away from the issues of Defence and Foreign Policy into domestic politics, UnSub.

Rudd had many failings but he still managed to become PM twice.   Which is better than most Australians manage at all.  He knew which side his bread was buttered on and would not surrender in the way you believe.   As far as religion is concerned, it should be kept right away from politics - a lesson that ScoMo is yet to learn.   Roll Eyes

Now, nothing else to say on Defence and Foreign Policy?


Excuse me. I was not the one to start this topic using a copy and paste quote that I wrote about something in a different context. Unfortunately, I can't remember the forum topic to show you want I mean. But, I can tell you that the issue was having weak leadership in politics. We are not tough when we get Rudd. Rudd is our latest puppet of the USA.

And as far as I can concern myself regarding the defence of Australia, we both can be in agreement that Indonesia poses no long-term military threat to Australia. It does not, however, mean that Indonesia can't be a threat to Australia, off the record, to whatever an Indonesia government wants done to us. Whether that is a quarantine issue, or a security threat, it does not matter.
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Re: Indonesia - a threat to Darwin?
Reply #14 - May 22nd, 2019 at 2:35am
 
Gordon wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 12:13pm:
Agree 100% with Brian here but there are two threats Indonesia poses to Nth Australia

1/ Sea born rubbish washing up on our shores
2/ A staging point for illegals


Before long, the illegal migrants will not need boats to cross the Timor Sea. They can just surf over the rubbish polluting the waters.
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