Jakarta’s Chinese Christian governor, Ahok, was jailed for blasphemy. His ‘crime’ was to argue that Islam does not forbid Muslims from voting for him, referring to verse Al-Maidah 51 of the Quran. This was in response to a widespread movement calling on Muslims to vote him out in the name of Islam. Many people argued the opposite – that Islam does forbid Muslims from voting for a non-Muslim (also referring to Al-Maidah 51). None of them were jailed for blasphemy.
I cannot tell which, but Gandalf is either blind to what is going on or actively trying to conceal it. This is peculiar, given that it is his style of interpreting Islam that is being targeted by Indonesian blasphemy laws. He claims to be a progressive Muslim, but apologises for the extremists at every opportunity. Indonesian law is blatantly and consistently targeting one side of the debate about Islam in Indonesia. This will inevitably shape public debate and opinion about Islam, in the opposite direction to that which Gandalf claims he wishes to steer it, but Gandalf still attempts to project his fantasy of a “free marketplace of ideas” onto Indonesia.
One of the arguments he has put forward was that this was a politically motivated jailing. Islam, however is a political movement. Muhammad was a political, religious and military leader, who was also fond of imposing Islam on people against their will. Thus, what is happening in Indonesia is not out of place in the history of Islam. I am not sure how this argument is supposed to work. Being politically motivated does not mean it is not happening, and a blasphemy law is inevitably going to be politically charged. Perhaps that is why Gandalf moved on without explaining.
He flipped between a variety of other arguments, most of them resting on misrepresenting what I say. For example, he claimed that my argument was that existence of a blasphemy law alone (ie, in the absence of enforcement) was undermining freedom of speech and steering public debate. He also claimed that my argument was that the jailing of Ahok alone was doing the same. He tried various versions of this theme – taking a single statement of mine and falsely claiming it was the entirety of my argument. Yet even when he misrepresented my argument this way, he was still unable to counter it. Indonesia jails a lot of people for blasphemy, as Gandalf’s own evidence demonstrates.
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 19
th, 2019 at 11:55am:
23 people in 4 years, 125 in the previous decade...
In addition, there were three colossal rallies calling for Ahok's jailing for insulting Islam. This is not just a legal or top-down political action. It is backed by a grass-roots support base, though that support base is no doubt reinforced by the way public debate on Islam has been steered. Indonesia is headed towards a dark place, and even the ‘progressive’ Muslims blind themselves to the reality.
Most recently, Gandalf changed tactic again and tried to argue that the Islamists are also being jailed for what they say about Islam. Again, this relies on a misrepresentation. None have been jailed for blasphemy, but they have been jailed for encouraging violence, hate speech, etc. Gandalf has attempted (but failed) to misrepresent this as being jailed for what they say about Islam. We are still waiting for him to provide an example that is not based on his paraphrasing of what they said and misrepresentation of what was done.
freediver wrote on May 8
th, 2019 at 7:28pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 8
th, 2019 at 11:37am:
freediver wrote on May 7
th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 3
rd, 2019 at 12:02pm:
Here you go FD, the full quote:
freediver wrote on Feb 22
nd, 2019 at 9:49am:
You seem completely oblivious to what is going on here Gandalf. Islamic extremists in Indonesia can say whatever they want. People who offer progressive interpretations of Islam get put in jail, very publicly. The government is transparently steering debate about Islam in Indonesia towards the extreme, and you are cheering them on.
The reality:
- Indonesia extremists are routinely charged and
gaoled for what they say about Islam - under the charge of "hate speech".
- Islamist groups including Hizbut tahrir are banned for what they say about Islam
- The government therefore is transparently steering debate about Islam in Indonesia away from the extreme
Can you give an example?
I have given you several already.
Here's just one:
Quote:Musician Ahmad Dhani was sentenced to 18 months in prison by South Jakarta District Court on Monday for hate speech in connection with a tweet he posted in March that incited people to attack supporters of former Jakarta governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, who now prefers to be called “BTP” but who was formerly known as “Ahok”.
https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2019/01/28/ahmad-dhani-gets-18-months-for-in...Also, do you think that he fact that Hizbut tahrir - a known Islamist political group - is banned in Indonesia is consistent with your claim that "Islamic extremists in Indonesia can say whatever they want"?
What did he say about Islam?