Australian Politics Forum - Indonesian law spreading Islamism

Yadda

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Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #15 - May 24^th, 2019 at 7:24am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2019 at 2:22pm:

Thats funny because Hizb ut tahrir are strictly non-violent.

So if its not for violence, and apparently its definitely not for what they say about Islam - why do you think they were banned?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 21^st, 2019 at 2:16pm:

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2019 at 3:51pm:

Oh look, a Muslim lying about Jihad.

Roll Eyes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir#Jihad

HT texts define Jihad as "war undertaken for the sake of Allah (swt) to raise high His (swt)[Note 23] word" and requiring an army (Institutions of State in the Khilafah).[143][144] They declare the necessity of jihad so that Da'wah will be carried "to all mankind" and will "bring them into the Khilafah state," and the importance of declaring "Jihad against the Kuffar without any lenience or hesitation;" (Ummah's Charter),[125][145] as well as the need to fight unbelievers who refuse to be ruled by Islam, even if they pay tribute (The Islamic Personality).

I didn't mention Jihad FD, I mentioned Hizb ut Tahrir and their rejection of violence.

gandalf,

Is it at all possible,

that whenever the moslem addresses non-moslem queries/questions, about the moslem religion,
that the moslem will tell non-moslems a pack of lies,
and tell non-moslems that, 'real ISLAM' is a tolerant and non-violent religion ?
....because it is in the 'practical' interest of the moslems to tell those lies ?

.

EXAMPLE, THE DOCTRINE OF DECEIT OF MOSLEMS;

A UK moslem community leader, speaking in the wake of the London 7/7 bombing.

Quote:

Inside the sect that loves terror
August 07, 2005

......In public interviews
Bakri condemned the killing of all innocent civilians.

Later when he addressed his own followers he explained that he had in fact been referring only to Muslims as only they were innocent:

“Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any kuffar.”

these are old links, but the article is kosher.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1724541,00.html
another source, "Undercover in the academy of hatred"...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1458729/posts

.

EXAMPLE, THE DOCTRINE OF DECEIT OF MOSLEMS;

IMAGE...

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami

Quote:

How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior

January 18, 2012

Preach Peace When Weak, Wage War When Strong

"...all notions of peace with non-Muslims are based on circumstance.

When Muslims are weak, they should be peaceful; when strong, they should go on the offensive."

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami - an ISLAMIC scholar and Egyptian Salafi leader
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/how-circumstance-dictates-isla...

.

EXAMPLE, THE DOCTRINE OF DECEIT OF MOSLEMS;

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims

London, Sept.8 [2007]

A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.

Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.

A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain.
Polite and softly spoken....

He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

.

EXAMPLE, THE DOCTRINE OF DECEIT OF MOSLEMS;

Quote:

A Study in Muslim Doctrine

"...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden,

insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."

http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

.

EXAMPLE, THE DOCTRINE OF DECEIT OF MOSLEMS;

WWW search....

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

.

EXAMPLE, THE DOCTRINE OF DECEIT OF MOSLEMS;

IMAGE.....

Ali Kadri - Islamic Council of Queensland vice-president,
features in The Mosque Next Door on SBS.

Quote:

"There's no underlying religious text or reasons why [moslems] go out and kill people......"

- Ali Kadri
------- >
https://www.northernstar.com.au/news/we-wont-stop-terrorist-attacks-by-blaming-i...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #16 - May 24^th, 2019 at 9:25am

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 5:38am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23^rd, 2019 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 7:10pm:

It was from the wikipedia article on HT Gandalf.

ok.

And you cherry picked it.

Are you accusing me of quoting the relevant part Gandalf?

Would you like to retract your claim about HT being strictly non-violent?

"non-violent" means what they do FD, not what they state in a manifesto. Of course citing what HUT says about violence as your explanation for why Indonesia banned makes it awkward for you given your previous insistence that Indoensian Islamists can "say whatever they want".

The Indonesian arm of HUT is demonstrably non-violent. Unless you can cite some evidence to the contrary, I'm sticking with that.

So how do you think the Indonesian government figures they are a violent threat FD? If not for actual violent activity, what other indication could they give other than what they say?

Are you standing by your statement that Indonesian islamists can say whatever they want?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #17 - May 24^th, 2019 at 11:56am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 9:25am:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 5:38am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23^rd, 2019 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 7:10pm:

It was from the wikipedia article on HT Gandalf.

ok.

And you cherry picked it.

Are you accusing me of quoting the relevant part Gandalf?

Would you like to retract your claim about HT being strictly non-violent?

"non-violent" means what they do FD, not what they state in a manifesto. Of course citing what HUT says about violence as your explanation for why Indonesia banned makes it awkward for you given your previous insistence that Indoensian Islamists can "say whatever they want".

The Indonesian arm of HUT is demonstrably non-violent. Unless you can cite some evidence to the contrary, I'm sticking with that.

So how do you think the Indonesian government figures they are a violent threat FD? If not for actual violent activity, what other indication could they give other than what they say?

Are you standing by your statement that Indonesian islamists can say whatever they want?

FD believes in Freeeeedom, G.

We have the Freeeeedom to shut these people up.

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moses

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Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #18 - May 24^th, 2019 at 3:17pm

Right now 24/5/19 Indonesia is showing us how peaceful and law abiding muslims are.

Concrete and barbed wire blockades thousands of riot police etc..

People are dying on the streets because the highest grade of muslims will not accept the election results, once again muzzies slaughtering mussies.

Oh the fruits of islam are so sweet.

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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #19 - May 25^th, 2019 at 8:37am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 9:25am:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 5:38am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23^rd, 2019 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 7:10pm:

It was from the wikipedia article on HT Gandalf.

ok.

And you cherry picked it.

Are you accusing me of quoting the relevant part Gandalf?

Would you like to retract your claim about HT being strictly non-violent?

"non-violent" means what they do FD, not what they state in a manifesto. Of course citing what HUT says about violence as your explanation for why Indonesia banned makes it awkward for you given your previous insistence that Indoensian Islamists can "say whatever they want".

The Indonesian arm of HUT is demonstrably non-violent. Unless you can cite some evidence to the contrary, I'm sticking with that.

So how do you think the Indonesian government figures they are a violent threat FD? If not for actual violent activity, what other indication could they give other than what they say?

Are you standing by your statement that Indonesian islamists can say whatever they want?

Gandalf, when Muslims describe themselves as non-violent, should we interpret that as not necessarily excluding the view that war is necessary to establish an Islamic state, support for jihad against the kafir without any hesitation, and the need to fight any kafir that refuses to be ruled by Islam?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #20 - May 28^th, 2019 at 1:24pm

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2019 at 8:37am:

Gandalf, when Muslims describe themselves as non-violent, should we interpret that as not necessarily excluding the view that war is necessary to establish an Islamic state, support for jihad against the kafir without any hesitation, and the need to fight any kafir that refuses to be ruled by Islam?

What I think is that the Indonesian government interpreted HUT's talk about jihad and the caliphate as a threat of non-state sanctioned violence, and banned them accordingly. And I think you agree.

In which case we seem to both agree that HUT got banned for what they say. Yes?

So at this stage are you considering revising your bold claim that Indonesian Islamists can say whatever they like?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #21 - May 28^th, 2019 at 2:27pm

Elections spark deadly riots in Jakarta

Indonesia's security minister said Wednesday authorities would block social media in some areas amid deadly riots over the official election result in Jakarta, AP reports.

Jakarta's governor told a press conference earlier riots in Indonesia's capital left at least 6 people dead and 200 wounded, per Channel News Asia.

Demonstrators took to the streets of Jakarta after sitting Indonesian President Joko "Jokowi" Widodo was declared the winner of April's election by a double-digit margin. Police said they had arrested at least 20 people, according to Reuters.

6 dead and 200 wounded just because the islamists didn't win the election.

Ah yes so peaceful is islam.

Ahok can tell you.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism Reply #22 - May 28^th, 2019 at 2:43pm moses wrote on May 28^th, 2019 at 2:27pm: the islamists didn't win the election That can't be right. I'm always being told what an Islamist shithole Indonesia is.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98425	Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism Reply #23 - May 28^th, 2019 at 3:41pm Shurely shome mishtake.
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 51479 Gender:	Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism Reply #24 - May 28^th, 2019 at 6:16pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2019 at 2:43pm: moses wrote on May 28^th, 2019 at 2:27pm: the islamists didn't win the election That can't be right. I'm always being told what an Islamist shithole Indonesia is. Both sides are for Islam >>> sh!tholery.
Back to top	Estragon: I can’t go on like this. Vladimir: That’s what you think. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism Reply #25 - May 29^th, 2019 at 9:04am Oh look FD's run away from my question and started a new thread.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

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what Muslims really mean by "non-violent"
Reply #26 - May 28^th, 2019 at 5:45pm

Gandalf described Hizb ut tahrir as "strictly non-violent", despite their core policy of needing unhesitating jihad against the kafir and the overthrow of governments to create an Islamic state. Apparently Muslims can describe a group this way on the basis that they have either not been caught yet or are waiting until the right time to start the slaughter - ie when they are in a position to win.

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2019 at 3:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2019 at 2:22pm:

Thats funny because Hizb ut tahrir are strictly non-violent.

So if its not for violence, and apparently its definitely not for what they say about Islam - why do you think they were banned?

Oh look, a Muslim lying about Jihad.

Roll Eyes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir#Jihad

HT texts define Jihad as "war undertaken for the sake of Allah (swt) to raise high His (swt)[Note 23] word" and requiring an army (Institutions of State in the Khilafah).[143][144] They declare the necessity of jihad so that Da'wah will be carried "to all mankind" and will "bring them into the Khilafah state," and the importance of declaring "Jihad against the Kuffar without any lenience or hesitation;" (Ummah's Charter),[125][145] as well as the need to fight unbelievers who refuse to be ruled by Islam, even if they pay tribute (The Islamic Personality).

I gave Gandalf plenty of opportunities to retract the statement, but he is sticking by it.

Quote:

I didn't mention Jihad FD, I mentioned Hizb ut Tahrir and their rejection of violence.

Can you produce any shred of evidence that they were banned because of their threat of violence (despite renouncing violence) - or are you going to make another brilliant attempt at deductive reasoning?

Meanwhile, here's some actual evidence to ponder:

Quote:

FD could you explain the logic of potentially provoking a previously non-violent organisation to resort to violence - when your main concern was to stop violence from them in the first place?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23^rd, 2019 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 7:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2019 at 9:37pm:

Is the wikipedia article wrong Gandalf?

You quoted a wiki article about jihad FD, how the firetruck does that validate what you say about Hizb ut tahrir and why they were banned? And how does it show that I'm a liar?

It was from the wikipedia article on HT Gandalf.

ok.

And you cherry picked it.

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 5:38am:

Would you like to retract your claim about HT being strictly non-violent?

Quote:

"non-violent" means what they do FD, not what they state in a manifesto.

Quote:

The Indonesian arm of HUT is demonstrably non-violent.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism Reply #27 - May 29^th, 2019 at 9:07am I've moved FD's deflection thread back to where it belongs. Maybe one day FD will finally learn that I don't want multiple threads on the same topic. Also, answer my question please. Is HUT being banned for what they say?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: what Muslims really mean by "non-violent"
Reply #28 - May 29^th, 2019 at 9:53am

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2019 at 5:45pm:

Gandalf described Hizb ut tahrir as "strictly non-violent", despite their core policy of needing unhesitating jihad against the kafir....

Time and time again, we have heard moslems who are in living Australia, particularly members of Hizb ut tahrir,
.....declare that they want to make Australia into a state governed by ISLAMIC law!

.

Quote:

Herman Johnson • May 31, 2017 at 19:37

When are you infidels going to realize that the Muslims are not here only seeking refuge, they are also on a Hijrah: to emigrate in the cause of Allah.

That is to move to a new land in order to bring Islam there is considered in Islam to be a highly meritorious act.

In Reader Comments.....
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10356/immigrants-tyranny

WWW search....
Hijrah, emigrate in the cause of Allah, jihad

IMAGE.....

Moslems are not in Australia, to be equal with non-moslems.

Moslems do not come to Australia, to share our freedoms and our system of justice, and to share our peaceful society.

Moslems come to Australia to bring the authority of ISLAM, to us.

Moslems come to Australia to impose the authority of ISLAM upon us - by persuasion [deceit], OR, by force.

.

The ISLAMIC modus;

Emigrate to an infidel state.

Live there, and do all you can to weaken and to wreck the infidel state.

When the infidel state is sufficiently weakened, a [violent] ISLAMIC revolution will be fomented.

And this is the modus, of the 'peaceful' moslems who live among us, within our own nation.

Example of this modus, in the UK....

Quote:

Inside the sect that loves terror

.....They are so opposed to the British state that they see it as their duty to make no economic contribution to the nation.

One member warned our undercover reporter against getting a job because it would be contributing to the kuffar (non-Muslim) system.

Instead, the young follower, Nasser, who receives £44 job seekers’ allowance a week, said it was permissible to “live off benefits”, just as the prophet Mohammed had lived off the state while attacking it at the same time.

Even paying car insurance was seen as supporting the system.

“All the (Saviour Sect) brothers drive without insurance,” he said.

cited.....http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1528078086/51#51

An Aussie example of moslems abusing, to weaken and to wreck the infidel state....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1532386735/0#0

More Aussie examples, of moslems abusing, to weaken and to wreck the infidel state,
ONE FEATURES THE 'CAT MEAT' MUFTI CHEATING AUSTRALIAN TAXPAYERS....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1445915815/0#0

n.b.

All of this criminal activity [by our laws], IS LAWFUL TO A MOSLEM [ISLAMIC law].

...because the moslem is doing 'injury' to the enemies of Allah.

.

Should we infidels just surrender to the moslem armies [i.e. to the Jihadists among us] ?

And surrender to the mercy of 'peaceful' moslem intents ?

.

Quote:

Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world.

We would like to do this by preaching.

But if not then we would use force.'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-p...

.

Quote:

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh.

...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained[/u].....THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.

...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun:

"[u]In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-111111225...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Indonesian law spreading Islamism
Reply #29 - May 29^th, 2019 at 9:54am

Oh FD, you've been online this morning busily answering every post I made - except in this thread. You even went to the trouble of starting a new thread to deflect it.

You have made an excellent case for the notion that HUT was banned for what they say - apparently without even realising it.

Do you think in hindsight it was pretty dumb to assert that Indonesian islamists can "say whatever they want"?

Do me one thing at least FD, as long as you keep running away from this question and starting new threads to deflect from it, try not to be a hypocrite and come out with any more quips like "it would be nice to get a straight answer from a muslim" - ok?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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