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Socialism vs Social Democracy (Read 1557 times)
Auggie
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Socialism vs Social Democracy
Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:14pm
 
There appears to be some confusion among many members of this Forum as to what 'socialism' means. For example, some people consider Bernie Sander's policies to be socialist but this isn't true. Some people consider Labor to be socialist but they're not.

In fact, Bernie Sanders' policies is in actual social democratic policies. So, what is the difference between socialism and social democracy.

The key difference is this:

Socialists reject capitalism as the fundamental organising principle of an economy; whilst Social Democrats accepts capitalism as the fundamental economic organising principle.

If a certain proportion of a capitalist economy is socialized or is not privately owned this does not mean that the economy or any government which supports such action, is to be considered socialist, since socialism refers to the the COMPLETE socialization of the economy and the COMPLETE elimination of capitalism.

The correct term to describe Labor, the Greens and Bernie Sanders is Social Democracy.

So, let's call it like it is, folks, and stop spreading misinformation.
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Yadda
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #1 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:19pm
 




"The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living."
- ?


Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Winston Churchill


"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
- Margaret Thatcher


"Socialism only works
In two places:
Heaven where they don't
Need it and hell where they already have it."
-Ronald Reagan


If you want more of something, subsidize it; if you want less of something, tax it.
- Ronald Reagan


'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'
-Ronald Reagan


'The taxpayer:
That's someone who works
For the federal government
But doesn't have to take the
Civil service examination.'
- Ronald Reagan


'Government is like a baby:
An alimentary canal with a
Big appetite at one end and
No sense of responsibility
At the other'
- Ronald Reagan


'The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program.'
- Ronald Reagan


'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession.
I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first'
- Ronald Reagan


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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John Smith
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #2 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:39pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
Some people consider Labor to be socialist but they're not.



only the morons, and they're never going to vote labor anyway.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Redmond Neck
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #3 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:22am
 
I heard one dopey Liberal MP refer to Labor as verging on Communist this morning!

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Super Nova
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #4 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:21pm
 
When I was young I was more Socialist in thinking and ideals. Wanted to see fairness and everyone having a good life and saw the rich getting richer and the poor not making progress in the struggle to live hand to mouth. (nothing has changed here)

As I travelled through life I saw many of the poorer people were unworthy of the handouts offered in good faith, people making it a full time job to exploit the system designed to provide some balance.

I have seen that human beings are not all equal and the few make the most significant contributions to our progress. The majority do their part. An increasing % of freeloaders exploiting the system to their advantage.

I no longer believe that Socialist ideals will work.

A left leaning social democracy movement while it has good intentions that I would like to see, will not work. The capitalist system cannot fully fund socialist ideals because of the exploitative nature of people. If only everyone had a go and only the needy was supported, there would be enough to go around.

As to the redistribution of wealth, this has become the burden of the hard working majority, with their pensions being raided, their life savings reduced, high taxes to fund those that bludge on us all.

The wealthy have an obligation to help through philanthropy or they will be at risk of a revolution.

I do believe in universal health care. Everyone has the right to life. Poor children should not suffer due to the performance of their parents. The old should be looked after by society since they have paid their dues.

While Labor is not full blown socialism, their high taxing policies and poor mechanisms to redistribute wealth to the unworthy will just screw again a system that is built and funded by capitalism. Capitalism  cannot support funding those that do not contribute to the process that supports them.
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Auggie
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #5 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:35pm
 
Super Nova wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:21pm:
When I was young I was more Socialist in thinking and ideals. Wanted to see fairness and everyone having a good life and saw the rich getting richer and the poor not making progress in the struggle to live hand to mouth. (nothing has changed here)

As I travelled through life I saw many of the poorer people were unworthy of the handouts offered in good faith, people making it a full time job to exploit the system designed to provide some balance.

I have seen that human beings are not all equal and the few make the most significant contributions to our progress. The majority do their part. An increasing % of freeloaders exploiting the system to their advantage.

I no longer believe that Socialist ideals will work.

A left leaning social democracy movement while it has good intentions that I would like to see, will not work. The capitalist system cannot fully fund socialist ideals because of the exploitative nature of people. If only everyone had a go and only the needy was supported, there would be enough to go around.

As to the redistribution of wealth, this has become the burden of the hard working majority, with their pensions being raided, their life savings reduced, high taxes to fund those that bludge on us all.

The wealthy have an obligation to help through philanthropy or they will be at risk of a revolution.

I do believe in universal health care. Everyone has the right to life. Poor children should not suffer due to the performance of their parents. The old should be looked after by society since they have paid their dues.

While Labor is not full blown socialism, their high taxing policies and poor mechanisms to redistribute wealth to the unworthy will just screw again a system that is built and funded by capitalism. Capitalism  cannot support funding those that do not contribute to the process that supports them.


The problem with charity is that it's very arbitrary. Government programs are reliable and are consistent
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Auggie
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #6 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:36pm
 
Yadda wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:19pm:




"The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living."
- ?


Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Winston Churchill


"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
- Margaret Thatcher


"Socialism only works
In two places:
Heaven where they don't
Need it and hell where they already have it."
-Ronald Reagan


If you want more of something, subsidize it; if you want less of something, tax it.
- Ronald Reagan


'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'
-Ronald Reagan


'The taxpayer:
That's someone who works
For the federal government
But doesn't have to take the
Civil service examination.'
- Ronald Reagan


'Government is like a baby:
An alimentary canal with a
Big appetite at one end and
No sense of responsibility
At the other'
- Ronald Reagan


'The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program.'
- Ronald Reagan


'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession.
I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first'
- Ronald Reagan




How much wood can a Yad yad yad can a yad yad yad wood?
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #7 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 10:01am
 
Super Nova wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:21pm:


......While Labor is not full blown socialism, their high taxing policies and poor mechanisms to redistribute wealth to the unworthy will just screw again a system that is built and funded by capitalism. Capitalism  cannot support funding those that do not contribute to the process that supports them.





Good post Super Nova.

I agree with much of what you said.



.



It is beneficial to all, when persons who have more than they need, give some of what they have, to others who are in need.

And many people do this.    ....it is called charity.



Ideally within a prosperous society, everyone should receive sufficient sustenance and shelter, and, they should be grateful for what they receive.

And if they want more, and if they can, let them strive lawfully for that extra.



Socialists [those who promote socialism] are almost all, merely crooks and thieves masquerading as 'wanna-be-benefactors to all'.


"Hey everyone!!!
We have found a magic pudding!
Would you like some of it ?

VOTE FOR US, and we'll let everyone has some of it."




Socialism, enforces the 'ideal' of 'sharing', by using the authority of a government [the state], to confiscate the property/wealth of those 'who have too much', so as to redistribute it into the pockets of 'the needy'.

But soon, the state increasingly, runs out of people to steal resources from.

Q.
Why does that happen ?

Q.
Why are there no longer, lots of resources, for the state to loot ?


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1555051405/1#1



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Super Nova
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #8 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:59pm
 
Thanks Yada.

Have you ever noticed those on welfare have:
- Big plasma tvs
- Iphones
- Games
- They smoke
- Nice cars

When I was struggling up the capitalist ladder I had
- A small portable B&W TV for many years
- Second hand HR holden - a bomb
- Second hand furniture

But save a little to buy my first house, the worst house in the street in a crap suburb.

We give them money and some have more material objects than those that work.....

This is what is wrong with the practical implementation of wealth distribution, it is abused by those who vote labor so they get their handouts. No-one gives a poo about the society and economy as a whole.

Redistribution should be lower taxes for those on lower incomes.... not handouts to those not contributing.
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Yadda
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #9 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 6:56pm
 
Super Nova wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:59pm:

Thanks Yada.

Have you ever noticed those on welfare have:
- Big plasma tvs      
[not Yadda]

- Iphones      
[Yadda does not own a smartphone]

- Games      
[not Yadda]

- They smoke      
[not Yadda]

- Nice cars      
[one, 15 year old ute]


When I was struggling up the capitalist ladder I had
- A small portable B&W TV for many years      
[me too]

- Second hand HR holden - a bomb      
[a 2nd hand mini van]

- Second hand furniture      
[me too - and a lot of my current, is 2nd hand]


But save a little to buy my first house, the worst house in the street in a crap suburb.

We give them money and some have more material objects than those that work.....

This is what is wrong with the practical implementation of wealth distribution, it is abused by those who vote labor so they get their handouts. No-one gives a poo about the society and economy as a whole.

Redistribution should be lower taxes for those on lower incomes.... not handouts to those not contributing.




Super Nova,

All pertinent points, imo.

In all honesty, i live a very modest lifestyle, and i always have done.



.



related to the human condition [of our propensity towards avarice and graft]....

All reformers, however strict their conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for.
- Logan Pearsall Smith


We are all flawed.
...to varying degrees.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Frank
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #10 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:40pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
There appears to be some confusion among many members of this Forum as to what 'socialism' means. For example, some people consider Bernie Sander's policies to be socialist but this isn't true. Some people consider Labor to be socialist but they're not.

In fact, Bernie Sanders' policies is in actual social democratic policies. So, what is the difference between socialism and social democracy.

The key difference is this:

Socialists reject capitalism as the fundamental organising principle of an economy; whilst Social Democrats accepts capitalism as the fundamental economic organising principle.

If a certain proportion of a capitalist economy is socialized or is not privately owned this does not mean that the economy or any government which supports such action, is to be considered socialist, since socialism refers to the the COMPLETE socialization of the economy and the COMPLETE elimination of capitalism.

The correct term to describe Labor, the Greens and Bernie Sanders is Social Democracy.

So, let's call it like it is, folks, and stop spreading misinformation.

Useful idiots.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1897/dec/31b.htm

https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1930s/demvscom/ch07.htm
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Auggie
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #11 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:48pm
 
Frank wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:40pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
There appears to be some confusion among many members of this Forum as to what 'socialism' means. For example, some people consider Bernie Sander's policies to be socialist but this isn't true. Some people consider Labor to be socialist but they're not.

In fact, Bernie Sanders' policies is in actual social democratic policies. So, what is the difference between socialism and social democracy.

The key difference is this:

Socialists reject capitalism as the fundamental organising principle of an economy; whilst Social Democrats accepts capitalism as the fundamental economic organising principle.

If a certain proportion of a capitalist economy is socialized or is not privately owned this does not mean that the economy or any government which supports such action, is to be considered socialist, since socialism refers to the the COMPLETE socialization of the economy and the COMPLETE elimination of capitalism.

The correct term to describe Labor, the Greens and Bernie Sanders is Social Democracy.

So, let's call it like it is, folks, and stop spreading misinformation.

Useful idiots.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1897/dec/31b.htm

https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1930s/demvscom/ch07.htm


Wrong again, Soren. Social Democracy evolved to mean something different to what it meant initially.

Try again .
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Frank
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #12 - May 1st, 2019 at 7:12pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:40pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
There appears to be some confusion among many members of this Forum as to what 'socialism' means. For example, some people consider Bernie Sander's policies to be socialist but this isn't true. Some people consider Labor to be socialist but they're not.

In fact, Bernie Sanders' policies is in actual social democratic policies. So, what is the difference between socialism and social democracy.

The key difference is this:

Socialists reject capitalism as the fundamental organising principle of an economy; whilst Social Democrats accepts capitalism as the fundamental economic organising principle.

If a certain proportion of a capitalist economy is socialized or is not privately owned this does not mean that the economy or any government which supports such action, is to be considered socialist, since socialism refers to the the COMPLETE socialization of the economy and the COMPLETE elimination of capitalism.

The correct term to describe Labor, the Greens and Bernie Sanders is Social Democracy.

So, let's call it like it is, folks, and stop spreading misinformation.

Useful idiots.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1897/dec/31b.htm

https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1930s/demvscom/ch07.htm


Wrong again, Soren. Social Democracy evolved to mean something different to what it meant initially.

Try again .

Oh? It has evolved, has it, Humpty Dumpty?


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”



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Auggie
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Re: Socialism vs Social Democracy
Reply #13 - May 1st, 2019 at 7:44pm
 
Frank wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 7:12pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:40pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
There appears to be some confusion among many members of this Forum as to what 'socialism' means. For example, some people consider Bernie Sander's policies to be socialist but this isn't true. Some people consider Labor to be socialist but they're not.

In fact, Bernie Sanders' policies is in actual social democratic policies. So, what is the difference between socialism and social democracy.

The key difference is this:

Socialists reject capitalism as the fundamental organising principle of an economy; whilst Social Democrats accepts capitalism as the fundamental economic organising principle.

If a certain proportion of a capitalist economy is socialized or is not privately owned this does not mean that the economy or any government which supports such action, is to be considered socialist, since socialism refers to the the COMPLETE socialization of the economy and the COMPLETE elimination of capitalism.

The correct term to describe Labor, the Greens and Bernie Sanders is Social Democracy.

So, let's call it like it is, folks, and stop spreading misinformation.

Useful idiots.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1897/dec/31b.htm

https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1930s/demvscom/ch07.htm


Wrong again, Soren. Social Democracy evolved to mean something different to what it meant initially.

Try again .

Oh? It has evolved, has it, Humpty Dumpty?


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”





Yes, definitions do change, Sore End. Don't you know?
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The Progressive President
 
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