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carbon taxes are the best (Read 10160 times)
freediver
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carbon taxes are the best
Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:34am
 
Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Carbon taxes overcome the two primary reasons for opposition to action on climate change:

1) The huge cost. Reducing GHG emissions is very cheap. What makes it expensive is government micromanagement (eg, MRETs, subsidies etc) - which makes about as much sense as asking the government to make and sell computers to us. There are simple ways to reduce emissions that people understand, the government can implement, and which have popular support. But they are the most expensive options. The cheap ways to reduce emissions are technically complex and beyond the reach of direct government intervention.

2) International cooperation. The currently preferred global mechanism is an emissions permit trading scheme. However this requires the creation of what is essentially a global currency, and it requires trust that all foreign governments will manage it correctly. That is a huge, and largely undeserved leap of faith. It also requires massive direct transfers of money between countries, which makes negotiations impossible. The alternative is a minimum agreed tax on GHG emissions. This is far simpler. Each country keeps it's own revenue, raised internally, and gets to "spend" it internally, for example by reducing other taxes.

All it takes is for people to get over their emotional over-reaction to the T word.

More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

I will be giving my first preference votes in both houses in the upcoming federal election to whichever party has the balls to publicly support carbon taxes. Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown have all publicly supported carbon taxes in the past. John Howard has supported and emissions trading scheme, which is the next best option from an economic perspective.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #1 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:53am
 
I could support a carbon tax, But I would need to know exactly where the tax dollars were going, My preference would be that they go into the development of green tech,,
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #2 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 10:39am
 
I'm still waiting for my $550 refund on my power bill when Abort abolished the carbon tax Cheesy LOL
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #3 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 5:41pm
 
"European Union leaders on Friday pushed back a decision on the bloc’s long-term efforts to fight climate change, with some countries opposing a pledge to end most emissions of greenhouse gases by 2050."

https://www.apnews.com/7923b9b30574401ca09f6e79bff5cac8
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #4 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 6:39pm
 
BigP wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:53am:
I could support a carbon tax, But I would need to know exactly where the tax dollars were going, My preference would be that they go into the development of green tech,,


Why not use them to reduce other taxes? Their intended environmental benefit does not come from the revenue raised, but from the increase in price they cause. Using them to fund green tech would just offset a very economically efficient environmental policy with an expensive, wasteful one. You would give credence to claims from opponents that reducing GHG emissions harms the economy too much, and equate it with another government tax grab.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #5 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 6:51pm
 
Tax

It's an ancient Roman word

What it means is

We gonna taka you munny and waste it on stupidity and personal enjoyment, while tricking you poor fools into thinking it's being wisely spent.

See, quite simple eh?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #6 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 6:59pm
 
Schools. Roads. Hospitals. Police.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #7 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 7:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 6:59pm:
Schools. Roads. Hospitals. Police.



Schools being run down and teachers teaching stupid worthless stuff
Pumping out illiterate kids who can't even add up

Roads, is that what they are
I thought they were goat tracks
I need a 4x4 just to get around in my area.

Hospitals
Oh yeah, where you go to catch a communicable desease and DIE

Finally the police
Yeah, trained by the best Keystone cop movies
Working with criminals to make Australia a more criminal place.

And we pay the highest taxes in the world for this shite.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #8 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 7:16pm
 
Hold on, I forgot my violin.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #9 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 7:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 7:16pm:
Hold on, I forgot my violin.



Ask the grubberment

They probably stole it as well.

May they all rot in hell.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #10 - Mar 26th, 2019 at 9:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:34am:
Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Carbon taxes overcome the two primary reasons for opposition to action on climate change:

1) The huge cost. Reducing GHG emissions is very cheap. What makes it expensive is government micromanagement (eg, MRETs, subsidies etc) - which makes about as much sense as asking the government to make and sell computers to us. There are simple ways to reduce emissions that people understand, the government can implement, and which have popular support. But they are the most expensive options. The cheap ways to reduce emissions are technically complex and beyond the reach of direct government intervention.

2) International cooperation. The currently preferred global mechanism is an emissions permit trading scheme. However this requires the creation of what is essentially a global currency, and it requires trust that all foreign governments will manage it correctly. That is a huge, and largely undeserved leap of faith. It also requires massive direct transfers of money between countries, which makes negotiations impossible. The alternative is a minimum agreed tax on GHG emissions. This is far simpler. Each country keeps it's own revenue, raised internally, and gets to "spend" it internally, for example by reducing other taxes.

All it takes is for people to get over their emotional over-reaction to the T word.

More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

I will be giving my first preference votes in both houses in the upcoming federal election to whichever party has the balls to publicly support carbon taxes. Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown have all publicly supported carbon taxes in the past. John Howard has supported and emissions trading scheme, which is the next best option from an economic perspective.


What happened, FD?

Did G say we should ban Islam? Did you lose a bet? Is the "culture" war over?

Please explain.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #11 - May 5th, 2019 at 1:28pm
 
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #12 - May 2nd, 2019 at 11:48am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 10:17am:
So I read the first three pages, and I assume the rest of the thread is the same: what started with a great topic - the benefits of pricing carbon, gets completely derailed by climate denialists rubbishing the idea of climate change itself.



So who exactly denied that climate changes? Wink
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Reply #13 - May 5th, 2019 at 1:30pm
 
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #14 - May 2nd, 2019 at 10:17am
 
So I read the first three pages, and I assume the rest of the thread is the same: what started with a great topic - the benefits of pricing carbon, gets completely derailed by climate denialists rubbishing the idea of climate change itself.

Pity.

For one thing FD, I'd be interested in why you think a carbon 'tax' (by which I assume you mean a fixed price), is better than a floating price in a market-based emissions trading scheme.

I would have thought most industries would opt for the latter?
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Reply #15 - May 5th, 2019 at 1:26pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 10:17am:
So I read the first three pages, and I assume the rest of the thread is the same: what started with a great topic - the benefits of pricing carbon, gets completely derailed by climate denialists rubbishing the idea of climate change itself.

Pity.

For one thing FD, I'd be interested in why you think a carbon 'tax' (by which I assume you mean a fixed price), is better than a floating price in a market-based emissions trading scheme.

I would have thought most industries would opt for the latter?


Thanks Gandalf. "Industry" does seem to prefer the latter. I assume there are two main reasons behind this. One is that it makes international negotiations difficult to irreconcilable, so it is a barrier to action. The second is that there is a good chance they will be handed the permits for free.

So compared with giving out emissions permits for free, a tax is better for the economy because it allows the reduction of other taxes.

For international negotiations, an agreed minimum internal tax rate, which leaves each government to decide what to do with the revenue, is much easier to negotiate than a trading scheme, which requires an upfront agreement of the emissions each country is allowed. This is particularly difficult for the emerging economies, who based on 1990 levels end up having to buy emissions from rich countries - the only solution to which is a big cash payout from rich to poor countries - equally unpalatable. It also requires far less trust in foreign governments than a trading scheme, which is basically the invention of a new shared currency.

A tax is also better because it can be priced to give a steady decline in emissions, which is the actual goal. It also avoids rapid fluctuations in price that you get when you suddenly reduce permissible emissions and everyone has to make the reduction suddenly, followed by massive drops in the price because it is easier to reduce emissions over the long term than the short term (this happened in Europe with their scheme).
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #16 - May 12th, 2019 at 8:49am
 
The carbon tax that would leave households better off while addressing climate change

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-21/the-carbon-tax-that-would-leave-households-better-off/10517652

Today, as part of the UNSW Grand Challenge on Inequality, we released a study entitled A Climate Dividend for Australians that offers a practical solution to the twin problems of climate change and energy affordability.

It is a serious, market-based approach to address climate change through a carbon tax, but it would also leave around three-quarters of Australians financially better off.

It is based on a carbon dividend plan formulated by the Washington-based Climate Leadership Council, which includes luminaries such as Larry Summers, George Schultz and James Baker. It is similar to a plan proposed by the US (and Australian) Citizens' Climate Lobby.

How it would work

Carbon emissions would be taxed at $50 per ton, with the proceeds returned to ordinary Australians as carbon dividends.

The dividends would be significant — a tax-free payment of about $1,300 per adult.

The average household would be $585 a year better off after taking account of price increases that would flow through from producers.

If those households also cut their energy consumption as a result of the tax they would be even better off.

And the payment would be progressive, meaning the lowest-earning households would get the most. The lowest earning quarter would be $1,305 a year better off.

Untaxed exports, fewer regulations

For energy and other producers making things to sell to Australians, the tax would do what all so-called Pigouvian taxes do — make them pay for the damage they do to others.

But Australian exporters to countries without such schemes would have their payments rebated.

Imports from countries without such schemes would be charged "fees" based on carbon content.

This means Australian companies subjected to the tax wouldn't be disadvantaged by imports from countries without it, and nor would importers from countries with such a tax.

The plan would permit the rollback of other restrictions on carbon emissions and expensive subsidies.

Our estimates suggest the rollbacks have the potential to save the Commonwealth $2.5 billion per year.

It's working overseas

Our plan is novel in the Australian context, but similar to one in the Canadian province of British Columbia, which has a carbon tax that escalates until it reaches $52 per ton, with proceeds returned to citizens via a dividend.

Alaska also pays long-term dividends from common-property resources. The proceeds from its oil reserves have been distributed to citizens since 1982, totalling up to $2,770 per person.

It could be phased in

We would be open to a gradual approach. One option we canvass in the report is beginning with a $20 per metric ton tax and increasing it by $5 a year until it reaches $50 after six years.

The dividends would grow with the tax rate, but the bulk of households would immediately be better off in net terms and much better off over time.

And it would be simple

Our plan doesn't create loopholes or incentives to get handouts from the Government, as have previous plans that directed proceeds to polluters.

It will not satisfy climate-change deniers, but then no plan for action on climate change would do that — other than perhaps the Governmment's direct action policy, which provides a costly taxpayer-funded boondoggle to selected winners.

But for those who understand that climate change is real, our plan balances the important benefits we gain from economic development and associated carbon emissions against the social cost of those emissions.

It does it in a way that provides compensation to all Australians, but on an equal basis, making the lowest-income Australians substantially better off.

It is the sort of policy that politicians who believe in both the realities of climate change as well as the power and benefits of markets ought to support.

Richard Holden is a professor of economics and PLuS Alliance Fellow at UNSW. Rosalind Dixon is a professor of law at UNSW. This article originally appeared on The Conversation.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #17 - May 12th, 2019 at 8:58am
 
https://greens.org.au/platform/redistribution

The Greens support a carbon price as the simplest, fairest, most effective way to reduce emissions, drive a transition in renewables and reduce household costs. Under our plan, we will legislate to re-introduce an economy-wide carbon price on direct emissions from facilities which emit more than 25,000 tonnes of CO2-e per year.



https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/Browse_by_Topic/ClimateChangeold/responses/economic/carbontax

A carbon tax is a tax on energy sources which emit carbon dioxide. It is a pollution tax, which some economists favour because they tax a 'bad' rather than a 'good' (such as income). Carbon taxes address a negative externality. Externalities arise when an individual production or consumption activity imposes costs or benefits on others. In market transactions, these costs and benefits are not normally reflected in the prices involved in the transaction, or taken into account in the transaction decision.

By placing a cost on these negative externalities the underlying purpose of a carbon tax is to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide and thereby slow global warming. It can be implemented by taxing the burning of fossil fuels—coal, petroleum products such as petrol and aviation fuel, and natural gas—in proportion to their carbon content.

There is some political support for a carbon tax in Australia as a means of implementing a carbon price. Some groups favour this approach as an interim step on the way to an Australian emissions trading scheme. The Howard Government's taskforce that examined options for dealing with climate change, and the more recent Garnaut Climate Change Review, rejected carbon taxes in favour of an emissions trading scheme.

Pros and Cons

Carbon taxes have been said to have the following advantages:

They put a limit on the costs of emissions reduction.

They can be implemented quickly.

They are predictable in their costs. Relatively stable price signals can help business and consumers plan energy spending and provide greater certainty for investments in energy efficiency that have large initial costs.

They are a permanent incentive to reduce emissions. The price of pollutants does not change, as with the operation of a market-based emission trading system.

They are not susceptible to 'strategic behaviour' by firms and non-government organisations that distort any market for trading emissions—such as purchasing a large number of permits and reselling them later at a profit or viewing auction permits in a cap-and-trade system as a right to pollute.

They are economically efficient in that they are transparent, simple and can have a wide coverage.

They can be implemented across a wide variety of economies and therefore are a suitable instrument for coordinated international action on reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

They are a revenue source. They could result in other taxes being reduced, or the proceeds of the carbon tax could be redirected to those most affected to ensure that the introduction of a carbon tax remains revenue neutral.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #18 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:24am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 6:59pm:
Schools. Roads. Hospitals. Police.


Oh please get a life willya,

We're going to save the world from ourselves by the supply, demand and cost of carbon derivatives on the open market.

I would rather see labor's $550 billion climate fund policy go into schools roads hospitals and  police...... Wink
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #19 - May 12th, 2019 at 11:52am
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:49am:
Carbon emissions would be taxed at $50 per ton, with the proceeds returned to ordinary Australians as carbon dividends.


And being a tax it hits the bottom line. How do companies manage the bottom line? By increasing prices.

It is still the same amount of CO2 emitted. But the consumer price just went up.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:49am:
But Australian exporters to countries without such schemes would have their payments rebated.


So our coal exports would have the carbon tax paid back to them.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:49am:
Alaska also pays long-term dividends from common-property resources. The proceeds from its oil reserves have been distributed to citizens since 1982, totalling up to $2,770 per person.


You do realise that is not a carbon tax but royalties for want of a better word.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #20 - May 12th, 2019 at 12:00pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:58am:
A carbon tax is a tax on energy sources which emit carbon dioxide. It is a pollution tax, which some economists favour because they tax a 'bad' rather than a 'good' (such as income).


CO2 is not a pollutant. Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:58am:
By placing a cost on these negative externalities the underlying purpose of a carbon tax is to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide and thereby slow global warming. It can be implemented by taxing the burning of fossil fuels—coal, petroleum products such as petrol and aviation fuel, and natural gas—in proportion to their carbon content.


If the emitter recovers costs by increasing prices there will be no net gain.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:58am:
There is some political support for a carbon tax in Australia as a means of implementing a carbon price.



Greenpeace and other "political" organisations.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:58am:
Pros and Cons


And you only gave the supposed PRO's. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:58am:
They are not susceptible to 'strategic behaviour' by firms and non-government organisations that distort any market for trading emissions—such as purchasing a large number of permits and reselling them later at a profit or viewing auction permits in a cap-and-trade system as a right to pollute.


Nothing there about not recovering increased costs. And any tax is a cost.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 8:58am:
They are a revenue source. They could result in other taxes being reduced, or the proceeds of the carbon tax could be redirected to those most affected to ensure that the introduction of a carbon tax remains revenue neutral.


If you are giving the money back to the consumer you can't just spend again where you like. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #21 - May 12th, 2019 at 12:14pm
 
Quote:
And being a tax it hits the bottom line. How do companies manage the bottom line? By increasing prices.


Either that or avoiding paying the tax. Either way it works. If they avoid it, they reduce emissions. If they pass the price on, their customers will find ways to avoid the emissions. Or just pay the tax.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #22 - May 12th, 2019 at 12:27pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
Either that or avoiding paying the tax. Either way it works.


If you increase the prices you haven't reduced the emissions.


freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
If they avoid it, they reduce emissions.



So how are emissions reduced making steel? You need coking coal for that. How about cement; that is a big emitter. You gunna build a mud daub hut?

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
If they pass the price on, their customers will find ways to avoid the emissions.


The customers can't avoid the emissions. It is in the product. They buy the product with the emissions embedded.

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #23 - May 12th, 2019 at 1:34pm
 
If you increase the price you reduce emissions, unless you are from the special school of economics where price does not affect behavior.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #24 - May 12th, 2019 at 1:55pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
If you increase the price you reduce emissions, unless you are from the special school of economics where price does not affect behavior.



Only if price is inelastic.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #25 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:10pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
[quote]And being a tax it hits the bottom line. How do companies manage the bottom line? By increasing prices.


The fixed price on carbon implemented in Australia was only technically a tax it could have just as easily been implemented as not a tax, it would have cost the same. "And being a tax" has little relevance if any.

The extra cost is a serious incentive to reduce carbon dioxide output and thus improve the bottom line while remaining competitive in the market.




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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #26 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:13pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 1:55pm:
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
If you increase the price you reduce emissions, unless you are from the special school of economics where price does not affect behavior.



Only if price is inelastic.


Would you like to elaborate?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #27 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:21pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 10:17am:
So I read the first three pages, and I assume the rest of the thread is the same: what started with a great topic - the benefits of pricing carbon, gets completely derailed by climate denialists rubbishing the idea of climate change itself.

Pity.

For one thing FD, I'd be interested in why you think a carbon 'tax' (by which I assume you mean a fixed price), is better than a floating price in a market-based emissions trading scheme.

I would have thought most industries would opt for the latter?


I hope that you don't mind my view on this.

The main reason is that the market based process is known to be deeply corrupt with criminal players involves money ciphering and poor results all this is international in nature and can not be controlled by Australia. The money collected is controlled internationally and spent on the same basis.

The Fixed price model we had was managed in Australia by Australians the money was directed into the areas that we deem most needed. Any corruption can be managed and acted on by us and the money used to address problems in Australia.

i.e. more efficient, more cost effective, greater impact at a lower cost.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #28 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:27pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:13pm:
Would you like to elaborate?


Seeing as you raised the subject of economics, I would have thought you knew.

The sensitivity to price is measured in its elasticity or inelasticity.

A common product with many suppliers will have an inelastic price, as the suppliers fight for market share.

A scarce product with few suppliers will be largely elastic as the consumer has limited sources of purchase.

Both water and electricity are largely elastic. As people won't forego them.

Ice creams on the other hand are largely inelastic. There being many suppliers and also the fact that it comes from discretionary spending.

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #29 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:30pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:10pm:
The extra cost is a serious incentive to reduce carbon dioxide output and thus improve the bottom line while remaining competitive in the market.


If the market is similarly affected there is no pressure on prices.

And seeing as part of Labor's policy is that imports will be affected if not taxed at source, there will be less incentive.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #30 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:27pm:
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:13pm:
Would you like to elaborate?


Seeing as you raised the subject of economics, I would have thought you knew.

The sensitivity to price is measured in its elasticity or inelasticity.

A common product with many suppliers will have an inelastic price, as the suppliers fight for market share.

A scarce product with few suppliers will be largely elastic as the consumer has limited sources of purchase.

Both water and electricity are largely elastic. As people won't forego them.

Ice creams on the other hand are largely inelastic. There being many suppliers and also the fact that it comes from discretionary spending.



Crap. We are talking about the quantity consumed here, not disconnecting from the grid. With water especially, it's nothing to do with people not wanting to go without. It's just that it is currently so cheap people do not think about the price, unless they fill a swimming pool with it.

Carbon emissions are very easy to reduce with pricing mechanisms, because no-one actually wants an emission. Between the things people actually want and the emissions, there are at least several stages in the delivery chain where emissions can be reduced, often significantly for little increase in the end price.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #31 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:40pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
We are talking about the quantity consumed here, not disconnecting from the grid.


And yet I never raised that. Wink

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
It's just that it is currently so cheap people do not think about the price, unless they fill a swimming pool with it.



And as the price goes up through water rates and charges people still use it. Because they have to.

You have never heard people complaining about water and electricity charges? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
Carbon emissions are very easy to reduce with pricing mechanisms, because no-one actually wants an emission.


Got a reference for that? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin How about natural emissions? Should we find a way to tax that as well IF nobody wants an emission?

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
Between the things people actually want and the emissions, there are at least several stages in the delivery chain where emissions can be reduced, often significantly for little increase in the end price.


Oh so economics doesn't suit your argument any more? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #32 - May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm
 
Quote:
And yet I never raised that.


Yes you did. You just did not realise. You said:

Quote:
Both water and electricity are largely elastic. As people won't forego them.


What do you mean by forego, other than not use any at all? Are we back to the special school of economics where the price has no impact at all on behaviour?

Quote:
And as the price goes up through water rates and charges people still use it. Because they have to.


Earth to Lee: they do not use as much. If it were free, people would use a lot more. As the goal of climate action is a reduction in emissions, not a complete stop, a tax is an entirely appropriate response. Are you going to respond to every post of mine by being too thick to comprehend the difference between reducing your usage and going without?

Quote:
Got a reference for that? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin How about natural emissions? Should we find a way to tax that as well IF nobody wants an emission?


How about common sense. No-one actually wants GHG emissions. No-one directly consumes electricity either for that matter. They are both just one of many ways to get the various good and services that we actually want, which is why consumption does vary considerably with price.

Are you actually arguing that a price on GHG emissions does not affect GHG emissions, or just having trouble comprehending how it happens? Your strategy appears to be to shy away from the "really stupid" in favour of the "little bit stupid".

Do all climate skeptics struggle so much with basic concepts?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #33 - May 12th, 2019 at 4:46pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Yes you did. You just did not realise. You said:

Quote:
Both water and electricity are largely elastic. As people won't forego them.



yes petal. And NOTHING about going off grid.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
What do you mean by forego, other than not use any at all?


Very good. Now going off grid and using water and electricity is not foregoing them. Wink

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Are we back to the special school of economics where the price has no impact at all on behaviour?


No petal. We are back to the normal school of economics where prices are either largely elastic or inelastic.  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Earth to Lee: they do not use as much.


How much has your water usage gone down? Electricity? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
How about common sense.



Oh you mean the silent majority? How does one determine the silent majority is in fact a majority? Wink

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
No-one actually wants GHG emissions.


Yes we do. it is been estimated that without GHG's the earth would be about 33C cooler.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Are you actually arguing that a price on GHG emissions does not affect GHG emissions, or just having trouble comprehending how it happens?


The emitters in the same industry all have the same problem. Across industries it will vary. Therefore they will all pass on any increased costs. Now some industries may be able to mitigate emissions. If they can't then no amount of tax is going to decrease their emissions.

Logic isn't your strong suit is it?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #34 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm
 
Quote:
No petal. We are back to the normal school of economics where prices are either largely elastic or inelastic.


Crap.

Quote:
The emitters in the same industry all have the same problem. Across industries it will vary. Therefore they will all pass on any increased costs. Now some industries may be able to mitigate emissions. If they can't then no amount of tax is going to decrease their emissions.

Logic isn't your strong suit is it?


It's not yours. Even if an industry cannot reduce emissions, their customers can. And the absolute worst case scenario is you pay tax.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #35 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:33pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
Crap.


We understand your view of economics is that it is just a word in the dictionary. Never mind.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
Even if an industry cannot reduce emissions, their customers can.


If  an industry can't reduce their emissions their is nothing they can do to reduce prices. Most of the CO2 is in the manufacturing. Not in the moving and storage.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
And the absolute worst case scenario is you pay tax.


Yes petal. And that is a cost to business. If it is a cost to business prices will increase to keep the level of profit. That impacts the consumer.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #36 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm
 
Lee, you seem to be agreeing with me that carbon taxes will reduce emissions, but complaining that it will not happen uniformly between industries. Is that right?

Quote:
If  an industry can't reduce their emissions their is nothing they can do to reduce prices.


But their customers can still reduce their emissions.

BTW, what industries are you talking about that cannot reduce their emissions?

Quote:
Most of the CO2 is in the manufacturing. Not in the moving and storage.


Ah, so trucks and refrigerators aren't responsible for much of our emissions?

Quote:
Yes petal. And that is a cost to business. If it is a cost to business prices will increase to keep the level of profit. That impacts the consumer.


If one tax goes up and another goes down, what will happen to the affordability of the end product?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #37 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:02pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Lee, you seem to be agreeing with me that carbon taxes will reduce emissions, but complaining that it will not happen uniformly between industries. Is that right?


It depends on whether a particular industry can reduce emissions. Whether there are processes that produce less CO2. There may be or there may not be.

A simplistic "a carbon tax will reduce emissions" is a nonsense.

So a carbon tax MAY reduce emissions. It is not a given.

So give me an example of an industry where emissions can be reduced, economically hopefully.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
But their customers can still reduce their emissions.


How can a customer reduce their emissions? Which customers, which industries.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
BTW, what industries are you talking about that cannot reduce their emissions?



Didn't you read about cement manufacture and steel manufacture?

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Ah, so trucks and refrigerators aren't responsible for much of our emissions?


So you would have ev's? You don't want refrigeration?

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
If one tax goes up and another goes down, what will happen to the affordability of the end product?



If the one that goes up is a carbon tax and it is fully rebated to the consumer, as promised, where is the room for another tax to come down?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #38 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:02pm:
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Lee, you seem to be agreeing with me that carbon taxes will reduce emissions, but complaining that it will not happen uniformly between industries. Is that right?


It depends on whether a particular industry can reduce emissions. Whether there are processes that produce less CO2. There may be or there may not be.

A simplistic "a carbon tax will reduce emissions" is a nonsense.

So a carbon tax MAY reduce emissions. It is not a given.


Yes it is. It falls into the bleeding obvious category. Are we back to the special school of economics here? Or are you trying the tactic of not quite saying the incredibly stupid, just holding it out as something you might say if you weren't doing a jellyfish impression? The "I have not yet graduated from the special school of economics" version?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #39 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:09pm
 
What sound does a jellyfish make, Lee?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #40 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:27pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
Yes it is.


is that in relation to the simplistic?

BTW - you didn't respond to the rest. Why is that?

Also have you heard of the new refrigerant R744?

magic stuff apparently.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
Are we back to the special school of economics here?


You haven't got back to me about pricing elasticity and you want to be taken seriously on economics? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
The "I have not yet graduated from the special school of economics" version?


That would be your class. Because you are "SPESHUL".

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #41 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm
 
Abu wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:09pm:
What sound does a jellyfish make, Lee?



karnal is now going to give us his learned experience with pricing elasticity. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #42 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm:
Abu wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:09pm:
What sound does a jellyfish make, Lee?



karnal is now going to give us his learned experience with pricing elasticity. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Don't want to say, eh?

FD?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #43 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:32pm
 
Abu wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm:
Don't want to say, eh?


I have already explained about pricing elasticity. Perhaps if you can't comment on it you might do some reading.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #44 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:47pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:32pm:
Abu wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm:
Don't want to say, eh?


I have already explained about pricing elasticity. Perhaps if you can't comment on it you might do some reading.


Ah yes, but you didn't say what sound a jellyfish makes.

FD?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #45 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am
 
Quote:
BTW - you didn't respond to the rest. Why is that?


Because I was struck by the stupidity of the first thing you said, and it occurred to me you are doing your best to use some big words without having a clue what you are talking about, then retreating to not actually saying anything.

I am happy to discuss some of the other incredibly stupid things you have said, for example that water and electricity are inelastic people people won't go without them. You can start by explaining why whether they will go without them is relevant to whether they will use more or less in response to changes in price.

You have opted away from the incredibly stupid claim that carbon taxes will not reduce carbon emissions, in favour of the slightly less stupid claim that "it is not a given". Please do not project your ignorance onto other people. It is highly offensive. You are the only one who does not know.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #46 - May 13th, 2019 at 1:42pm
 
No one has the right to not be offended, FD.

Sometimes a question is just a question.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #47 - May 13th, 2019 at 2:52pm
 
Abu wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:47pm:
Ah yes, but you didn't say what sound a jellyfish makes.


You seem to be an expert seeing it is something you have repeated. Was it from your own inabilities?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #48 - May 13th, 2019 at 3:05pm
 
quote author=freediver link=1553553295/45#45 date=1557695598]Because I was struck by the stupidity of the first thing you said, and it occurred to me you are doing your best to use some big words without having a clue what you are talking about, then retreating to not actually saying anything. [/quote]

Ooh, what was the first thing I said? You mean to you pricing is a big word? Elasticity perhaps? It can't have been economics because you raised that; even though your knowledge of it seems entirely lacking.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
I am happy to discuss some of the other incredibly stupid things you have said, for example that water and electricity are inelastic people people won't go without them.


Oh is that what you thought I said?

lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:27pm:
Both water and electricity are largely elastic.



Oops. I said exactly the opposite.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
You can start by explaining why whether they will go without them is relevant to whether they will use more or less in response to changes in price.



Poor petal. If they stop using them because of price it is entirely relevant.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
You have opted away from the incredibly stupid claim that carbon taxes will not reduce carbon emissions, in favour of the slightly less stupid claim that "it is not a given".


Seeing as you say that. perhaps you can give us your ballpark figure on how much CO2(e) the carbon tax will reduce. In the first year and then 2nd, 3rd .


freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
Please do not project your ignorance onto other people. It is highly offensive. You are the only one who does not know.


perhaps you can tell us exactly what you do "know". Apart from carbon taxes are best. Best for what exactly? Global emissions? Reducing Australia's net emissions even more? Please tell us.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #49 - May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm
 
Quote:
Poor petal. If they stop using them because of price it is entirely relevant.


And if they do not stop using them? Does it tell us anything relevant? Or was that just you completely missing the point? This was, after all, what you claimed - that people would not forgo water or electricity. So, how is that relevant to whether they would reduce their consumption in response to a price increase?

Quote:
Seeing as you say that. perhaps you can give us your ballpark figure on how much CO2(e) the carbon tax will reduce.


Duh. It depends on the price. The wikipedia article on Australia's carbon tax gives a rundown on the reduction that was achieved over the short time it was in operation.

Quote:
perhaps you can tell us exactly what you do "know". Apart from carbon taxes are best. Best for what exactly? Global emissions? Reducing Australia's net emissions even more? Please tell us.


They are the cheapest, or most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #50 - May 13th, 2019 at 6:40pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
And if they do not stop using them? Does it tell us anything relevant?


yes petal. The price is elastic.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
This was, after all, what you claimed - that people would not forgo water or electricity.


So you are claiming that people do forego water and electricity?

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
So, how is that relevant to whether they would reduce their consumption in response to a price increase?


Have people reduced their consumption due to price rises?

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
The wikipedia article on Australia's carbon tax gives a rundown on the reduction that was achieved over the short time it was in operation.



From your reference -

"In February 2012, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that Clean Energy Future carbon price scheme had not deterred new investment in the coal industry, as spending on exploration had increased by 62% in 2010-2011, more than any other mineral commodity. "

"Falls in carbon emissions were observed following implementation of this policy.[6] It was noted that emissions from sectors subject to the pricing mechanism were 1.0% lower[7] and nine months after the introduction of the pricing scheme, Australia's carbon dioxide emissions from electricity generation had fallen to a 10-year low, with coal generation down 11% from 2008 to 2009.[8] However, attribution of these trends to carbon pricing have been disputed, with Frontier Economics claiming trends are largely explained by factors unrelated to the carbon tax.[9][10]"

Seems like much ado about nothing. Wink

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
They are the cheapest, or most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions.


So you want to decrease water vapour too? Isn't Australia a dry continent already?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #51 - May 13th, 2019 at 6:53pm
 
I think you managed to completely miss the point in every single response Lee. Is your strategy to be far too stupid to respond to?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #52 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:09pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 6:53pm:
I think you managed to completely miss the point in every single response Lee. Is your strategy to be far too stupid to respond to?


Then perhaps you need to enunciate your position better.

Tell us about all these GHG's everyone wants to get rid of.

I really can't help you with economics, because you have a belief. And your belief, at least according o you, is always right.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #53 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:28pm
 
If you didn't know what a GHG is, you should have said at the beginning so you didn't waste all this time pretending to know what you are talking about.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #54 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:43pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:28pm:
If you didn't know what a GHG is, you should have said at the beginning so you didn't waste all this time pretending to know what you are talking about.


GHG's include water vapour, according to NASA the major GHG.

"Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change"

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.html

perhaps you need to take a closer look at your belief systems.

And then of course, if you get your wish and reduce CO2, what will supply the energy we require.

Renewables in Australia don't even generate enough for the Hospitals in Melbourne's CBD.

And then there are further problems on the horizon that have implications for Australia.

"Australian wind project owners worried as Senvion faces insolvency"

https://reneweconomy.com.au/australian-wind-project-owners-worried-as-senvion-fa...


And related -

"German manufacturer of wind turbine towers and foundations Ambau has filed for bankruptcy at the Cuxhaven district court."

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2019/02/18/ambau-files-for-bankruptcy/

The main reason for the bankruptcy filing is reportedly insolvency due to the lack of orders.

And of course all that concrete that goes into making the bases.

In Europe windpower is on the nose.

"Onshore wind is doing no better. The most recent auction for wind contracts in Germany took place in February and was radically undersubscribed, with only 476 MW of a possible 700 MW being awarded "

https://windeurope.org/newsroom/news/german-onshore-wind-auction-under-subscribe...

But you can hope that the comparatively tiny Australian market will remain immune.

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Reply #55 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:30pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:10pm:
The extra cost is a serious incentive to reduce carbon dioxide output and thus improve the bottom line while remaining competitive in the market.


If the market is similarly affected there is no pressure on prices.

And seeing as part of Labor's policy is that imports will be affected if not taxed at source, there will be less incentive.


If the market is similarly affected there is no pressure on prices.

But it isn't similarly affected greener producers get a much better deal on cost those who fail to keep up fail and those who produce better product reap the benefits.

Your argument could be considered in theory but we did have a price on carbon for a short period and your prediction was not the outcome experienced. You have already been proven to be wrong.
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Reply #56 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:08pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
But it isn't similarly affected greener producers get a much better deal on cost those who fail to keep up fail and those who produce better product reap the benefits.


That presupposes that there are greener options. Wink

Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
Your argument could be considered in theory but we did have a price on carbon for a short period and your prediction was not the outcome experienced. You have already been proven to be wrong.


You obviously didn't read my response to FD where he cited wki.

lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 6:40pm:
However, attribution of these trends to carbon pricing have been disputed, with Frontier Economics claiming trends are largely explained by factors unrelated to the carbon tax.[


Now you can take that as you like it. It would seem there is no proof that the carbon tax did anything.
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Reply #57 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:20pm
 
lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:08pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
But it isn't similarly affected greener producers get a much better deal on cost those who fail to keep up fail and those who produce better product reap the benefits.


That presupposes that there are greener options. Wink

Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
Your argument could be considered in theory but we did have a price on carbon for a short period and your prediction was not the outcome experienced. You have already been proven to be wrong.


You obviously didn't read my response to FD where he cited wki.

lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 6:40pm:
However, attribution of these trends to carbon pricing have been disputed, with Frontier Economics claiming trends are largely explained by factors unrelated to the carbon tax.[


Now you can take that as you like it. It would seem there is no proof that the carbon tax did anything.


You want to rely on the guys who said this ?

Quote:
While the Morrison government has abandoned the national energy guarantee because conservatives complain that emissions reduction policies drive up power prices, the new research finds that critique is misguided.

Power prices for households would fall by 2030 under four different scenarios modelled by Frontier Economics – business as usual and emissions reduction targets of 26%, 45% and 65%.

The research says the price reductions would vary state-by-state, but business as usual would result in an average saving of 18.5%.


Quote:
Now you can take that as you like it. It would seem there is no proof that the carbon tax did anything


I have not read that study but find it a bit strange that the trends moved with the carbon price in place and returned to the previous direction when it was removed. Possible but Looks a bit suspicious maybe ?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #58 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:21pm
 
Lee does not allow himself to disagree with the claim that carbon taxes reduce emissions. He can only hold aloft his ignorance.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #59 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:42pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:20pm:
I have not read that study but find it a bit strange that the trends moved with the carbon price in place and returned to the previous direction when it was removed. Possible but Looks a bit suspicious maybe ?



Ah yes. The infamous maybe. Wink
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Reply #60 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:43pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
Lee does not allow himself to disagree with the claim that carbon taxes reduce emissions. He can only hold aloft his ignorance.


And yet your ignorance highlighted that you didn't know water vapour was a GHG. Roll Eyes
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Reply #61 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:44pm
 
The infamous "I don't know, therefor no-one else does either".
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Reply #62 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:49pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:44pm:
The infamous "I don't know, therefor no-one else does either".


is that your excuse? Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #63 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:53pm
 
You keep projecting your ignorance onto others Lee.

Do you feel like an idiot for banging on for pages about how industries are either largely elastic or largely inelastic, without realising that both imply carbon taxes will reduce emissions?

Or do you still not understand the big terms you tried to use for the first time?
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Reply #64 - May 13th, 2019 at 10:03pm
 
But perhaps you can explain what happens if GHG's are reduced.

What will be the necessary power sources? The ones required to power not just steel making, but semiconductor manufacture, glass and many more.

Because while GHG emission reduction may be a goal; it is not the ultimate goal. That is that we maintain a standard of living. With all its attendant problems.

So what is this source of power that you prefer to maintain that?
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Reply #65 - May 13th, 2019 at 10:25pm
 
lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:42pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:20pm:
I have not read that study but find it a bit strange that the trends moved with the carbon price in place and returned to the previous direction when it was removed. Possible but Looks a bit suspicious maybe ?



Ah yes. The infamous maybe. Wink


You left out your "it would seem"

The report questions (on your word) the fact that the trend followed the actions of the fixed carbon price saying that the fact that emissions dropped when it was introduced and then went back up when it was removed can be explained by other factors.

I would use one of your "it would seem's" to say that maybe it can be explained but is extremely unlikely.

Picture a climbing graph for say 20 years and then there is a blip as it flattens and then returns to its path which coincides to the implementation and removal of the carbon price. Sure you can say that other factors could explain it but the probability would be astonishingly small.
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Reply #66 - May 13th, 2019 at 10:33pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:53pm:
You keep projecting your ignorance onto others Lee.


I am not the one who said that we need to eliminate all GHG's. Wink

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:53pm:
Do you feel like an idiot for banging on for pages about how industries are either largely elastic or largely inelastic, without realising that both imply carbon taxes will reduce emissions?


You do realise that argument is bogus? It implies nothing of the sort. There is no argument that gives rise to whether a good is either elastic or inelastic that implies either or both would reduce emissions under a carbon tax.

But at least you must have done some reading and found out about prices being elastic or inelastic, and not some "special school of economics". Wink

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:53pm:
Or do you still not understand the big terms you tried to use for the first time?



oh, You feel now you have read a little you know a lot? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #67 - May 13th, 2019 at 10:39pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
. Sure you can say that other factors could explain it but the probability would be astonishingly small.


Since you have given no indication of what other factors are in play that is specious nonsense. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

If you have say five assumptions that could give the resultant graph and you say only this one will do it, you are a fool or perhaps an activist.

Which one are you? Wink
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Reply #68 - May 14th, 2019 at 7:00am
 
lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 10:33pm:
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:53pm:
Do you feel like an idiot for banging on for pages about how industries are either largely elastic or largely inelastic, without realising that both imply carbon taxes will reduce emissions?


You do realise that argument is bogus? It implies nothing of the sort. There is no argument that gives rise to whether a good is either elastic or inelastic that implies either or both would reduce emissions under a carbon tax.


It's what the terms mean Lee. Like I said, you shouldn't use them if you don't know what they mean. Bluffing doesn't make you look any less stupid.
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Reply #69 - May 14th, 2019 at 3:29pm
 
freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 7:00am:
It's what the terms mean Lee.


Really? Where did you find price sensitivity defined in terms of carbon tax? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 7:00am:
Bluffing doesn't make you look any less stupid.



No but it makes you look more stupid. Wink
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Reply #70 - May 14th, 2019 at 8:43pm
 
lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 10:39pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
. Sure you can say that other factors could explain it but the probability would be astonishingly small.


Since you have given no indication of what other factors are in play that is specious nonsense. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

If you have say five assumptions that could give the resultant graph and you say only this one will do it, you are a fool or perhaps an activist.

Which one are you? Wink


The other factors are the ones that you posted ?

How does it work ?

You post other factors and Hoo OooH haaaa. it is meaningful.

I post other factors and it is meaningless ?
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Reply #71 - May 14th, 2019 at 8:46pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 8:43pm:
I post other factors and it is meaningless ?



Which other factors petal?

You mean this? -

Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:20pm:
Power prices for households would fall by 2030 under four different scenarios modelled by Frontier Economics – business as usual and emissions reduction targets of 26%, 45% and 65%.

The research says the price reductions would vary state-by-state, but business as usual would result in an average saving of 18.5%.


Power prices would drop under business as usual? In other words without a carbon tax?
So why is a carbon tax so good again?
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Reply #72 - May 17th, 2019 at 8:56pm
 
lee wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 3:29pm:
freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 7:00am:
It's what the terms mean Lee.


Really? Where did you find price sensitivity defined in terms of carbon tax? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 7:00am:
Bluffing doesn't make you look any less stupid.



No but it makes you look more stupid. Wink


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand

Quote:
Price elasticities are almost always negative, although analysts tend to ignore the sign even though this can lead to ambiguity. Only goods which do not conform to the law of demand, such as Veblen and Giffen goods, have a positive PED. In general, the demand for a good is said to be inelastic (or relatively inelastic) when the PED is less than one (in absolute value): that is, changes in price have a relatively small effect on the quantity of the good demanded. The demand for a good is said to be elastic (or relatively elastic) when its PED is greater than one.


In other words, you harped on for pages with two terms you had just googled to argue that carbon taxes may or may not reduce emissions, without realising that both terms imply they would.

So now you are retreating to gibberish. Try and actually say something Lee.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #73 - May 17th, 2019 at 9:26pm
 
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
In other words, you harped on for pages with two terms you had just googled to argue that carbon taxes may or may not reduce emissions, without realising that both terms imply they would.


You rely on wiki?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Try an economics book. Wink

Now go back and read what I wrote. About some prices being LARGELY inelastic.

BTW - Did  you read what DNA wrote but didn't actually comprehend?

lee wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 8:46pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:20pm:
Power prices for households would fall by 2030 under four different scenarios modelled by Frontier Economics – business as usual and emissions reduction targets of 26%, 45% and 65%.

The research says the price reductions would vary state-by-state, but business as usual would result in an average saving of 18.5%.


So we have even a no carbon tax giving us a good outcome.

So what is the imperative for a carbon tax again? Why would it be "the best"?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #74 - May 17th, 2019 at 9:42pm
 
And do you know?

He's learned everything from you, FD.

It is a jolly world, no?
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Reply #75 - May 17th, 2019 at 10:03pm
 
lee wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 9:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
In other words, you harped on for pages with two terms you had just googled to argue that carbon taxes may or may not reduce emissions, without realising that both terms imply they would.


You rely on wiki?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Try an economics book. Wink

Now go back and read what I wrote. About some prices being LARGELY inelastic.

BTW - Did  you read what DNA wrote but didn't actually comprehend?

lee wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 8:46pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:20pm:
Power prices for households would fall by 2030 under four different scenarios modelled by Frontier Economics – business as usual and emissions reduction targets of 26%, 45% and 65%.

The research says the price reductions would vary state-by-state, but business as usual would result in an average saving of 18.5%.


So we have even a no carbon tax giving us a good outcome.

So what is the imperative for a carbon tax again? Why would it be "the best"?


No you have a no carbon reduction policy giving the same price reductions as carbon reduction policies.

Same financial outcome with no benefit in reduced pollution.

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #76 - May 17th, 2019 at 10:13pm
 
lee wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 9:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
In other words, you harped on for pages with two terms you had just googled to argue that carbon taxes may or may not reduce emissions, without realising that both terms imply they would.


You rely on wiki?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Try an economics book. Wink

Now go back and read what I wrote. About some prices being LARGELY inelastic.

BTW - Did  you read what DNA wrote but didn't actually comprehend?

lee wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 8:46pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:20pm:
Power prices for households would fall by 2030 under four different scenarios modelled by Frontier Economics – business as usual and emissions reduction targets of 26%, 45% and 65%.

The research says the price reductions would vary state-by-state, but business as usual would result in an average saving of 18.5%.


So we have even a no carbon tax giving us a good outcome.

So what is the imperative for a carbon tax again? Why would it be "the best"?


I read what you wrote. What it means, and what you do not comprehend, is that carbon taxes will reduce emissions. You seemed to think it meant that you could put a price on CO2 emissions and there would be no reduction at all. No-one who actually understand economics would say something that stupid. Only a pretender. Only you.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #77 - May 17th, 2019 at 10:13pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:03pm:
Same financial outcome with no benefit in reduced pollution.


CO2 is not pollution. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #78 - May 17th, 2019 at 10:17pm
 
lee wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:13pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:03pm:
Same financial outcome with no benefit in reduced pollution.


CO2 is not pollution. Grin Grin Grin Grin


Almost anything in undesired quantities can be considered to be pollution.
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Reply #79 - May 17th, 2019 at 11:03pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:17pm:
Almost anything in undesired quantities can be considered to be pollution.


And what is the scientific established undesired quantity of CO2?

The 10000ppm that they used to get in submarines?

The 1000ppm in greenhouses?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #80 - May 26th, 2019 at 7:55pm
 
freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 7:13pm:
lee wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 2:45pm:
freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 1:07pm:
They can reduce emissions by any amount up to 100%


Really? Where has this been achieved in the real world?


Do I really have to explain it to you Lee?

Quote:
Why would you reduce emissions to zero?


You wouldn't. Way to completely miss the point lee.

Quote:
Of course it is. It means there is at least one economist who disagrees.


No Lee, that is not what it means.

Quote:
Then perhaps you can find a link to support your contention that all economists support a carbon tax. Wink


Here's a good start:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Have you found an economists who disagrees yet?


Quote:
It is precisely what it means. Or do you mean a sceptics bias would not allow that but a warmist knows no such bias?


And what it means is not the same thing I was talking about.

Quote:
yes petal. You have made a claim. Back it up with real world experience.


Sure. The first time an eco tax was imposed, it achieved a 100% reduction. That a tax can achieve this ought to be put in the bleeding obvious pile.

Quote:
Oh the  reference you posted that is so out of date.


Do you think economics has changed since then?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #81 - May 26th, 2019 at 8:37pm
 
freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 7:55pm:
And what it means is not the same thing I was talking about.


Yes. I have seen how you struggle with sentences. Perhaps if you improved that?

freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 7:55pm:
Sure. The first time an eco tax was imposed, it achieved a 100% reduction.



Saying it does not make it so. What was this eco tax that was 100% effective?freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 7:55pm:
Do you think economics has changed since then?


It depends on the questions asked. The assumptions made. It always has. Wink
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Reply #82 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:00pm
 
Here it is again Lee:

Carbon pricing is the cheapest and most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions.

You have not found an economist who disagrees with that. All you have managed to demonstrate is an inability to understand what is being said.

Labor introduced the cheapest and most economically efficient mechanism for reducing GHG emissions. The coalition discarded it, in favour of far more expensive options. They are populist economic vandals.

If you think the view of economists on carbon pricing has changed since that article was written, you are even more detached from reality than I thought.
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Reply #83 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:06pm
 
freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:00pm:
Carbon pricing is the cheapest and most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions.


You have provided no evidence petal. Please try again.

freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:00pm:
You have not found an economist who disagrees with that.


No i have found links that say SOME don't agree. Some is MORE than ONE petal.

freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:00pm:
Labor introduced the cheapest and most economically efficient mechanism for reducing GHG emissions. The coalition discarded it, in favour of far more expensive options. They are populist economic vandals.


See item 1 above.

freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:00pm:
If you think the view of economists on carbon pricing has changed since that article was written, you are even more detached from reality than I thought.


I gave you quotes petal. You just don't like them. So in your tiny mind they must not exist.

As I said Economics  relies on the questions asked and the assumptions used.

If you change the questions and/or you change the assumptions you change the modelled output. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

BTW - you still haven't explained the eco tax that was 100% effective. Wink
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Reply #84 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:09pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 10:17pm:
Almost anything in undesired quantities can be considered to be pollution.



Does dihydrogen monoxide qualify? Wink
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #85 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:34pm
 
Quote:
You have provided no evidence petal. Please try again.


I did not realise you were still denying the bleeding obvious lee. Is This something to do with being a climate skeptic, or a rusted on coalition voter?

Quote:
No i have found links that say SOME don't agree.


That is not what they say Lee. Your inability to comprehend what you read is not evidence.

Quote:
I gave you quotes petal. You just don't like them


They would be wonderful quotes if you were trying to make a different point.
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Reply #86 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:47pm
 
freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:34pm:
I did not realise you were still denying the bleeding obvious lee. Is This something to do with being a climate skeptic, or a rusted on coalition voter?



No, it is to do with an activist who won't post proof.

freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:34pm:
That is not what they say Lee.



It is precisely what they say petal. Wink

freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:34pm:
They would be wonderful quotes if you were trying to make a different point.


They could be better if they said you were a shifty activist. Grin Grin Grin

And still nothing to back up your claim of this wonderful 100% efficient eco tax. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #87 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:58pm
 
Quote:
No, it is to do with an activist who won't post proof.


Proof of what Lee? You keep changing your mind. Are you back to denying that carbon taxes reduce GHG emissions?
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Reply #88 - May 26th, 2019 at 10:13pm
 
freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 9:58pm:
Proof of what Lee?



Oh dear; short term memory loss. Where is the proof that "carbon taxes are best"? That is your claim. Where in the world has it actually been proven as the "cheapest and most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions"?

And still nothing about this marvellous 100% efficient eco tax. Wink
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Reply #89 - May 28th, 2019 at 7:46am
 
Do you think the liberal party is this stupid - shifting the goal posts and demanding proof because they don't like the fact that every single economist gives them the same advice?

You asked for evidence. I gave you a statement of consensus from economists. You attempted to counter this with an economist who you thought disagreed, but it only demonstrated that you do not understand what they are saying. Now you appear to be demanding some kind of series of experiments on national economies to prove the bleeding obvious.
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Reply #90 - May 28th, 2019 at 11:57am
 
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 7:46am:
You asked for evidence. I gave you a statement of consensus from economists.


Evidence of a theory is not proof. No proof of carbon taxes are the best" no proof of ""cheapest and most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions". That proof would come from effects in the real world not the modelled world.

freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 7:46am:
You attempted to counter this with an economist who you thought disagreed, but it only demonstrated that you do not understand what they are saying


Nope. You wilfully refuse to believe.

freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 7:46am:
Now you appear to be demanding some kind of series of experiments on national economies to prove the bleeding obvious.



You are the one that said "The first time an eco tax was imposed, it achieved a 100% reduction". To date you have provided no evidence of this.  Your claim to make, your claim to back up.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #91 - May 28th, 2019 at 6:10pm
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match#Replacement_of_white_phosphorus

Quote:
The United States did not pass a law, but instead placed a "punitive tax" in 1913 on white phosphorus–based matches, one so high as to render their manufacture financially impractical


Surely the ability to achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction via a tax falls into the "bleeding obvious" category? Why do coalition supporters need people to hold their hand and walk them through the logic?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #92 - May 28th, 2019 at 6:21pm
 
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 6:10pm:
Surely the ability to achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction via a tax falls into the "bleeding obvious" category?


So putting a punitive tax on something so it becomes impractical in in some way analogous to putting a carbon tax (sic) on something to ensure they stay in business?

What did the tax do for the ecology *the environment) precisely? I mean it became safer for people but it didn't affect the environment.

Tell us about the punitive taxes on alcohol and tobacco. Wink
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #93 - May 28th, 2019 at 8:50pm
 
Before we move on, are you now convinced that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction?

Or are you just trying to change the subject?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #94 - May 28th, 2019 at 9:02pm
 
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
Before we move on, are you now convinced that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction?



You are now changing your argument. It wasn't supposed to be just a tax but an "eco tax".

So where is this "eco tax" of which you spoke?

freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
Or are you just trying to change the subject?


You are the one trying to change the parameters of your argument. Wink
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #95 - May 29th, 2019 at 8:42am
 
White phosphorous is poisonous Lee.

Are you denying that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction? Or just doing your best impression of a plank of wood?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #96 - May 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 8:42am:
White phosphorous is poisonous Lee.


Very good.

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 8:42am:
Are you denying that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction?



You were selling an "eco tax" not a "poison tax". So what was the "eco tax" that you were selling?

Are you one of those "bait and switch salesmen? Wink

You made the claim. Back it up or back down. It is immaterial to me which one.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #97 - May 29th, 2019 at 1:46pm
 
You asked for the evidence, so I gave it to you, now you cannot figure out why I gave it to you.

I was not selling any eco tax other than a carbon tax. I was countering your idiocy that a tax cannot achieve anywhere up to 100% reduction. Do you still hold to that idiocy?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #98 - May 29th, 2019 at 2:16pm
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:46pm:
I was not selling any eco tax other than a carbon tax.



Then you have proof that the carbon tax " achieved a 100% reduction".

We achieved a 100% reduction in CO2? Really? Can you post proof of this marvellous occurrence?

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:46pm:
I was countering your idiocy that a tax cannot achieve anywhere up to 100% reduction.


And yet that was not what you claimed.

Your statement "The first time an eco tax was imposed, it achieved a 100% reduction."
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #99 - May 29th, 2019 at 8:15pm
 
Bubinga.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #100 - May 30th, 2019 at 11:55am
 
freediver wrote on May 5th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 10:17am:
So I read the first three pages, and I assume the rest of the thread is the same: what started with a great topic - the benefits of pricing carbon, gets completely derailed by climate denialists rubbishing the idea of climate change itself.

Pity.

For one thing FD, I'd be interested in why you think a carbon 'tax' (by which I assume you mean a fixed price), is better than a floating price in a market-based emissions trading scheme.

I would have thought most industries would opt for the latter?


Thanks Gandalf. "Industry" does seem to prefer the latter. I assume there are two main reasons behind this. One is that it makes international negotiations difficult to irreconcilable, so it is a barrier to action. The second is that there is a good chance they will be handed the permits for free.

So compared with giving out emissions permits for free, a tax is better for the economy because it allows the reduction of other taxes.

For international negotiations, an agreed minimum internal tax rate, which leaves each government to decide what to do with the revenue, is much easier to negotiate than a trading scheme, which requires an upfront agreement of the emissions each country is allowed. This is particularly difficult for the emerging economies, who based on 1990 levels end up having to buy emissions from rich countries - the only solution to which is a big cash payout from rich to poor countries - equally unpalatable. It also requires far less trust in foreign governments than a trading scheme, which is basically the invention of a new shared currency.

A tax is also better because it can be priced to give a steady decline in emissions, which is the actual goal. It also avoids rapid fluctuations in price that you get when you suddenly reduce permissible emissions and everyone has to make the reduction suddenly, followed by massive drops in the price because it is easier to reduce emissions over the long term than the short term (this happened in Europe with their scheme).


All good points.

Pity this ship has already sailed for Australia. Especially now after the recent election result.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #101 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 12:25pm
 
It will be another 3 years of inaction.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #102 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 1:11pm
 
So to what purpose are Carbon Taxes put?

Building Renewables because they don't want nuclear.

"Australia's National Electricity Market and power generators are struggling to come up with a coherent plan "to keep the lights on" due to policy and pricing limitations, according to a major independent study of the sector.

Key points:
New capacity is being driven by construction and deal making rather than what is needed
Black coal has been replacing brown coal while solar and wind is pushing out gas and hydro
Price mechanisms have encouraged 'bare minimum' rather than reliable generators
The report compiled by industry analysts Global-Roam and Greenview Strategic Consulting found the "obsessive focus on fuel types" and an "us and them schism" between fossil fuels and renewable energy posed significant risks to a successful transition to a modern energy market.

The more than 600-page Generator Report Card is a deep dive into the 20 years of the NEM and every generator supplying the market."

"Despite wind and solar dominating the new capacity coming online in the past five years, the aggregate level of coal-fired generation in recent years has remained relatively steady.

Black coal has largely replaced closed brown coal plants, while wind and solar have displaced hydro and gas generation."

"However, the report has identified the new battleground as “anytime/anywhere energy”, or wind and solar, versus “keeping the lights on services”, or traditional synchronised generation from the big fossil fuel utilities.

The declining cost of wind and solar farms has made them the default choices for additional capacity, however the new generation is seldom integrated with “keeping the lights on services”."

"“There is a glimmer of hope there with people putting in batteries, but it still just a ‘toe-in-the-water’ exercise,” Global-Roam’s Paul McArdle said.

“It make sense wind and solar farms should invest in some form of battery storage, but there is still a fair bit of commercial risk without greater incentives [to build them],” he said."

"Changes in ‘bid patterns’ for power are seeing an increasing volatility and a concentration of either extremely low (below $0/MWh) or high (above $300/MWh) prices.

Occasionally “cheap” power may sound good for consumers, but they are bids from price-takers who find it either cheaper to keep plants going, or are happy enough to take whatever price is going — but average prices across the curve keep creeping up."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-31/nem-20-year-report-card-points-to-big-cha...

And even the IPCC realises that nuclear has to be part of the solution. -

"Multiple options exist to reduce energy supply sector GHG emissions (robust evidence, high agreement). These include energy efficiency improvements and fugitive emission reductions in fuel extraction as well as in energy conversion, transmission, and distribution systems; fossil fuel switching; and low-GHG energy supply technologies such as renewable energy (RE), nuclear power, and carbon dioxide capture and storage (CCS). [7.5, 7.8.1, 7.11]"

"Nuclear energy is a mature low-GHG emission source of baseload power, but its share of global electricity generation has been declining (since 1993). Nuclear energy could make an increasing contribution to low-carbon energy supply, but a variety of barriers and risks exist (robust evidence, high agreement). Its specific emissions are below 100  gCO2eq per kWh on a lifecycle basis and with more than 400 operational nuclear reactors worldwide, nuclear electricity represented 11% of the world’s electricity generation in 2012, down from a high of 17% in 1993. Pricing the externalities of GHG emissions (carbon pricing) could improve the competitiveness of nuclear power plants. [7.2, 7.5.4, 7.8.1, 7.12]"

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5_chapter7.pdf

So just how are the carbon (sic) taxes supposed to work if not for generating low GHG emissions?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #103 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 1:57pm
 
You're happy to promote every form of power, Lee.

Except the free stuff from the sun and wind.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #104 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 2:17pm
 
You're happy to promote every form of power, Lee.

Except the free stuff from the sun and wind.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #105 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 2:18pm
 
Abu wrote on Jun 2nd, 2019 at 1:57pm:
You're happy to promote every form of power, Lee.

Except the free stuff from the sun and wind.


The cost of collection is not free. Why would you need to subsidise something that is free?

The sun and the wind are intermittent. They therefore require backup from some source.

Batteries are not a power source. They are a source of power storage.

The  much touted battery in SA has enough capacity to keep SA running for about 3 minutes from memory. And that depends on time of day as it is based on average consumption.

Therefore the only available power sources are -

Hydro, not widely suitable because of flat terrain, droughts etc. Also the greenies don't like drowning land by damming. They may protest that is not the case but they have never approved one yet.

Nuclear, should never be mentioned in polite conversation. Wink

Fossil Fuel, should also never be mentioned in polite conversation.

But perhaps you have an alternative view you would like to share.

Had a name change Karnal? Was there a reason?

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #106 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 12:51pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 2nd, 2019 at 1:11pm:
So to what purpose are Carbon Taxes put?

Building Renewables because they don't want nuclear.

"Australia's National Electricity Market and power generators are struggling to come up with a coherent plan "to keep the lights on" due to policy and pricing limitations, according to a major independent study of the sector.

Key points:
New capacity is being driven by construction and deal making rather than what is needed
Black coal has been replacing brown coal while solar and wind is pushing out gas and hydro
Price mechanisms have encouraged 'bare minimum' rather than reliable generators
The report compiled by industry analysts Global-Roam and Greenview Strategic Consulting found the "obsessive focus on fuel types" and an "us and them schism" between fossil fuels and renewable energy posed significant risks to a successful transition to a modern energy market.

The more than 600-page Generator Report Card is a deep dive into the 20 years of the NEM and every generator supplying the market."

"Despite wind and solar dominating the new capacity coming online in the past five years, the aggregate level of coal-fired generation in recent years has remained relatively steady.

Black coal has largely replaced closed brown coal plants, while wind and solar have displaced hydro and gas generation."

"However, the report has identified the new battleground as “anytime/anywhere energy”, or wind and solar, versus “keeping the lights on services”, or traditional synchronised generation from the big fossil fuel utilities.

The declining cost of wind and solar farms has made them the default choices for additional capacity, however the new generation is seldom integrated with “keeping the lights on services”."

"“There is a glimmer of hope there with people putting in batteries, but it still just a ‘toe-in-the-water’ exercise,” Global-Roam’s Paul McArdle said.

“It make sense wind and solar farms should invest in some form of battery storage, but there is still a fair bit of commercial risk without greater incentives [to build them],” he said."

"Changes in ‘bid patterns’ for power are seeing an increasing volatility and a concentration of either extremely low (below $0/MWh) or high (above $300/MWh) prices.

Occasionally “cheap” power may sound good for consumers, but they are bids from price-takers who find it either cheaper to keep plants going, or are happy enough to take whatever price is going — but average prices across the curve keep creeping up."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-31/nem-20-year-report-card-points-to-big-cha...

And even the IPCC realises that nuclear has to be part of the solution. -

"Multiple options exist to reduce energy supply sector GHG emissions (robust evidence, high agreement). These include energy efficiency improvements and fugitive emission reductions in fuel extraction as well as in energy conversion, transmission, and distribution systems; fossil fuel switching; and low-GHG energy supply technologies such as renewable energy (RE), nuclear power, and carbon dioxide capture and storage (CCS). [7.5, 7.8.1, 7.11]"

"Nuclear energy is a mature low-GHG emission source of baseload power, but its share of global electricity generation has been declining (since 1993). Nuclear energy could make an increasing contribution to low-carbon energy supply, but a variety of barriers and risks exist (robust evidence, high agreement). Its specific emissions are below 100  gCO2eq per kWh on a lifecycle basis and with more than 400 operational nuclear reactors worldwide, nuclear electricity represented 11% of the world’s electricity generation in 2012, down from a high of 17% in 1993. Pricing the externalities of GHG emissions (carbon pricing) could improve the competitiveness of nuclear power plants. [7.2, 7.5.4, 7.8.1, 7.12]"

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5_chapter7.pdf

So just how are the carbon (sic) taxes supposed to work if not for generating low GHG emissions?


In other words, the coalition's inaction on carbon pricing is creating market inefficiency, pushing up power prices, and creating uncertainty in the industry.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #107 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 1:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 12:51pm:
In other words, the coalition's inaction on carbon pricing is creating market inefficiency, pushing up power prices, and creating uncertainty in the industry.


No petal. it is the demonising of fossil fuels doing that.

Cause AND effect. Wink

You have heard of the economist Nordhaus right? He gave the world the 2C Global Warming schtck.

"On the day of the Nobel announcement, the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (UN IPCC) released a special report1 advising the governments of the world on various steps necessary to limit cumulative global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. The major media coverage treated the two events as complementary.2 In fact, they are incompatible. Although Nordhaus favors a carbon tax to slow climate change, his own model shows that the UN’s target would make humanity poorer than doing nothing at all about climate change.

Indeed, we can use Nordhaus’s and other standard models to show that the now-championed 1.5°C target is ludicrously expensive, far more costly than the public has been led to believe. This is presumably why the new IPCC special report does not even attempt to justify its policy goals in a cost/benefit framework. Rather, it takes the 1.5°C target as a politically “given” constraint and then discusses the pros and cons of various mechanisms to achieve it."

https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2018/MurphyNordhaus.html

Or perhaps you prefer something from the Garudian?

"Policymakers ought not wait for economic theory to catch up with the environmental crisis"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/12/the-guardian-view-on-a-gre...

So now economists are not flavour of the month. getting more bizarre.

The garudian goes on to say we have "little more than a decade to save ourselves and the other creatures with whom we share the planet".

But apparently that has blown out by about 30 years.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/148cb0_b2c0c79dc4344b279bcf2365336ff23b.pdf

Also reported in the New York Post.

https://nypost.com/2019/06/03/climate-change-could-end-human-civilization-by-205...

happy travels or should tat be happy travails? Wink
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #108 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:27pm
 
So reality is to blame, not the coalition's mishandling of that reality?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #109 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:27pm:
So reality is to blame, not the coalition's mishandling of that reality?


To blame for what petal?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #110 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 8:48am
 
lee wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:33pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:27pm:
So reality is to blame, not the coalition's mishandling of that reality?


To blame for what petal?


High electricity prices.
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