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carbon taxes are the best (Read 17121 times)
lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #90 - May 28th, 2019 at 11:57am
 
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 7:46am:
You asked for evidence. I gave you a statement of consensus from economists.


Evidence of a theory is not proof. No proof of carbon taxes are the best" no proof of ""cheapest and most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions". That proof would come from effects in the real world not the modelled world.

freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 7:46am:
You attempted to counter this with an economist who you thought disagreed, but it only demonstrated that you do not understand what they are saying


Nope. You wilfully refuse to believe.

freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 7:46am:
Now you appear to be demanding some kind of series of experiments on national economies to prove the bleeding obvious.



You are the one that said "The first time an eco tax was imposed, it achieved a 100% reduction". To date you have provided no evidence of this.  Your claim to make, your claim to back up.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #91 - May 28th, 2019 at 6:10pm
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match#Replacement_of_white_phosphorus

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The United States did not pass a law, but instead placed a "punitive tax" in 1913 on white phosphorus–based matches, one so high as to render their manufacture financially impractical


Surely the ability to achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction via a tax falls into the "bleeding obvious" category? Why do coalition supporters need people to hold their hand and walk them through the logic?
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #92 - May 28th, 2019 at 6:21pm
 
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 6:10pm:
Surely the ability to achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction via a tax falls into the "bleeding obvious" category?


So putting a punitive tax on something so it becomes impractical in in some way analogous to putting a carbon tax (sic) on something to ensure they stay in business?

What did the tax do for the ecology *the environment) precisely? I mean it became safer for people but it didn't affect the environment.

Tell us about the punitive taxes on alcohol and tobacco. Wink
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #93 - May 28th, 2019 at 8:50pm
 
Before we move on, are you now convinced that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction?

Or are you just trying to change the subject?
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #94 - May 28th, 2019 at 9:02pm
 
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
Before we move on, are you now convinced that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction?



You are now changing your argument. It wasn't supposed to be just a tax but an "eco tax".

So where is this "eco tax" of which you spoke?

freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
Or are you just trying to change the subject?


You are the one trying to change the parameters of your argument. Wink
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #95 - May 29th, 2019 at 8:42am
 
White phosphorous is poisonous Lee.

Are you denying that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction? Or just doing your best impression of a plank of wood?
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #96 - May 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 8:42am:
White phosphorous is poisonous Lee.


Very good.

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 8:42am:
Are you denying that a tax can achieve anywhere up to a 100% reduction?



You were selling an "eco tax" not a "poison tax". So what was the "eco tax" that you were selling?

Are you one of those "bait and switch salesmen? Wink

You made the claim. Back it up or back down. It is immaterial to me which one.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #97 - May 29th, 2019 at 1:46pm
 
You asked for the evidence, so I gave it to you, now you cannot figure out why I gave it to you.

I was not selling any eco tax other than a carbon tax. I was countering your idiocy that a tax cannot achieve anywhere up to 100% reduction. Do you still hold to that idiocy?
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #98 - May 29th, 2019 at 2:16pm
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:46pm:
I was not selling any eco tax other than a carbon tax.



Then you have proof that the carbon tax " achieved a 100% reduction".

We achieved a 100% reduction in CO2? Really? Can you post proof of this marvellous occurrence?

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:46pm:
I was countering your idiocy that a tax cannot achieve anywhere up to 100% reduction.


And yet that was not what you claimed.

Your statement "The first time an eco tax was imposed, it achieved a 100% reduction."
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #99 - May 29th, 2019 at 8:15pm
 
Bubinga.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #100 - May 30th, 2019 at 11:55am
 
freediver wrote on May 5th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 10:17am:
So I read the first three pages, and I assume the rest of the thread is the same: what started with a great topic - the benefits of pricing carbon, gets completely derailed by climate denialists rubbishing the idea of climate change itself.

Pity.

For one thing FD, I'd be interested in why you think a carbon 'tax' (by which I assume you mean a fixed price), is better than a floating price in a market-based emissions trading scheme.

I would have thought most industries would opt for the latter?


Thanks Gandalf. "Industry" does seem to prefer the latter. I assume there are two main reasons behind this. One is that it makes international negotiations difficult to irreconcilable, so it is a barrier to action. The second is that there is a good chance they will be handed the permits for free.

So compared with giving out emissions permits for free, a tax is better for the economy because it allows the reduction of other taxes.

For international negotiations, an agreed minimum internal tax rate, which leaves each government to decide what to do with the revenue, is much easier to negotiate than a trading scheme, which requires an upfront agreement of the emissions each country is allowed. This is particularly difficult for the emerging economies, who based on 1990 levels end up having to buy emissions from rich countries - the only solution to which is a big cash payout from rich to poor countries - equally unpalatable. It also requires far less trust in foreign governments than a trading scheme, which is basically the invention of a new shared currency.

A tax is also better because it can be priced to give a steady decline in emissions, which is the actual goal. It also avoids rapid fluctuations in price that you get when you suddenly reduce permissible emissions and everyone has to make the reduction suddenly, followed by massive drops in the price because it is easier to reduce emissions over the long term than the short term (this happened in Europe with their scheme).


All good points.

Pity this ship has already sailed for Australia. Especially now after the recent election result.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #101 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 12:25pm
 
It will be another 3 years of inaction.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #102 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 1:11pm
 
So to what purpose are Carbon Taxes put?

Building Renewables because they don't want nuclear.

"Australia's National Electricity Market and power generators are struggling to come up with a coherent plan "to keep the lights on" due to policy and pricing limitations, according to a major independent study of the sector.

Key points:
New capacity is being driven by construction and deal making rather than what is needed
Black coal has been replacing brown coal while solar and wind is pushing out gas and hydro
Price mechanisms have encouraged 'bare minimum' rather than reliable generators
The report compiled by industry analysts Global-Roam and Greenview Strategic Consulting found the "obsessive focus on fuel types" and an "us and them schism" between fossil fuels and renewable energy posed significant risks to a successful transition to a modern energy market.

The more than 600-page Generator Report Card is a deep dive into the 20 years of the NEM and every generator supplying the market."

"Despite wind and solar dominating the new capacity coming online in the past five years, the aggregate level of coal-fired generation in recent years has remained relatively steady.

Black coal has largely replaced closed brown coal plants, while wind and solar have displaced hydro and gas generation."

"However, the report has identified the new battleground as “anytime/anywhere energy”, or wind and solar, versus “keeping the lights on services”, or traditional synchronised generation from the big fossil fuel utilities.

The declining cost of wind and solar farms has made them the default choices for additional capacity, however the new generation is seldom integrated with “keeping the lights on services”."

"“There is a glimmer of hope there with people putting in batteries, but it still just a ‘toe-in-the-water’ exercise,” Global-Roam’s Paul McArdle said.

“It make sense wind and solar farms should invest in some form of battery storage, but there is still a fair bit of commercial risk without greater incentives [to build them],” he said."

"Changes in ‘bid patterns’ for power are seeing an increasing volatility and a concentration of either extremely low (below $0/MWh) or high (above $300/MWh) prices.

Occasionally “cheap” power may sound good for consumers, but they are bids from price-takers who find it either cheaper to keep plants going, or are happy enough to take whatever price is going — but average prices across the curve keep creeping up."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-31/nem-20-year-report-card-points-to-big-cha...

And even the IPCC realises that nuclear has to be part of the solution. -

"Multiple options exist to reduce energy supply sector GHG emissions (robust evidence, high agreement). These include energy efficiency improvements and fugitive emission reductions in fuel extraction as well as in energy conversion, transmission, and distribution systems; fossil fuel switching; and low-GHG energy supply technologies such as renewable energy (RE), nuclear power, and carbon dioxide capture and storage (CCS). [7.5, 7.8.1, 7.11]"

"Nuclear energy is a mature low-GHG emission source of baseload power, but its share of global electricity generation has been declining (since 1993). Nuclear energy could make an increasing contribution to low-carbon energy supply, but a variety of barriers and risks exist (robust evidence, high agreement). Its specific emissions are below 100  gCO2eq per kWh on a lifecycle basis and with more than 400 operational nuclear reactors worldwide, nuclear electricity represented 11% of the world’s electricity generation in 2012, down from a high of 17% in 1993. Pricing the externalities of GHG emissions (carbon pricing) could improve the competitiveness of nuclear power plants. [7.2, 7.5.4, 7.8.1, 7.12]"

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5_chapter7.pdf

So just how are the carbon (sic) taxes supposed to work if not for generating low GHG emissions?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #103 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 1:57pm
 
You're happy to promote every form of power, Lee.

Except the free stuff from the sun and wind.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #104 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 2:17pm
 
You're happy to promote every form of power, Lee.

Except the free stuff from the sun and wind.
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