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carbon taxes are the best (Read 10136 times)
freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #45 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am
 
Quote:
BTW - you didn't respond to the rest. Why is that?


Because I was struck by the stupidity of the first thing you said, and it occurred to me you are doing your best to use some big words without having a clue what you are talking about, then retreating to not actually saying anything.

I am happy to discuss some of the other incredibly stupid things you have said, for example that water and electricity are inelastic people people won't go without them. You can start by explaining why whether they will go without them is relevant to whether they will use more or less in response to changes in price.

You have opted away from the incredibly stupid claim that carbon taxes will not reduce carbon emissions, in favour of the slightly less stupid claim that "it is not a given". Please do not project your ignorance onto other people. It is highly offensive. You are the only one who does not know.
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Abu
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #46 - May 13th, 2019 at 1:42pm
 
No one has the right to not be offended, FD.

Sometimes a question is just a question.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #47 - May 13th, 2019 at 2:52pm
 
Abu wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:47pm:
Ah yes, but you didn't say what sound a jellyfish makes.


You seem to be an expert seeing it is something you have repeated. Was it from your own inabilities?
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #48 - May 13th, 2019 at 3:05pm
 
quote author=freediver link=1553553295/45#45 date=1557695598]Because I was struck by the stupidity of the first thing you said, and it occurred to me you are doing your best to use some big words without having a clue what you are talking about, then retreating to not actually saying anything. [/quote]

Ooh, what was the first thing I said? You mean to you pricing is a big word? Elasticity perhaps? It can't have been economics because you raised that; even though your knowledge of it seems entirely lacking.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
I am happy to discuss some of the other incredibly stupid things you have said, for example that water and electricity are inelastic people people won't go without them.


Oh is that what you thought I said?

lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:27pm:
Both water and electricity are largely elastic.



Oops. I said exactly the opposite.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
You can start by explaining why whether they will go without them is relevant to whether they will use more or less in response to changes in price.



Poor petal. If they stop using them because of price it is entirely relevant.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
You have opted away from the incredibly stupid claim that carbon taxes will not reduce carbon emissions, in favour of the slightly less stupid claim that "it is not a given".


Seeing as you say that. perhaps you can give us your ballpark figure on how much CO2(e) the carbon tax will reduce. In the first year and then 2nd, 3rd .


freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:13am:
Please do not project your ignorance onto other people. It is highly offensive. You are the only one who does not know.


perhaps you can tell us exactly what you do "know". Apart from carbon taxes are best. Best for what exactly? Global emissions? Reducing Australia's net emissions even more? Please tell us.
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #49 - May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm
 
Quote:
Poor petal. If they stop using them because of price it is entirely relevant.


And if they do not stop using them? Does it tell us anything relevant? Or was that just you completely missing the point? This was, after all, what you claimed - that people would not forgo water or electricity. So, how is that relevant to whether they would reduce their consumption in response to a price increase?

Quote:
Seeing as you say that. perhaps you can give us your ballpark figure on how much CO2(e) the carbon tax will reduce.


Duh. It depends on the price. The wikipedia article on Australia's carbon tax gives a rundown on the reduction that was achieved over the short time it was in operation.

Quote:
perhaps you can tell us exactly what you do "know". Apart from carbon taxes are best. Best for what exactly? Global emissions? Reducing Australia's net emissions even more? Please tell us.


They are the cheapest, or most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #50 - May 13th, 2019 at 6:40pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
And if they do not stop using them? Does it tell us anything relevant?


yes petal. The price is elastic.

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
This was, after all, what you claimed - that people would not forgo water or electricity.


So you are claiming that people do forego water and electricity?

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
So, how is that relevant to whether they would reduce their consumption in response to a price increase?


Have people reduced their consumption due to price rises?

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
The wikipedia article on Australia's carbon tax gives a rundown on the reduction that was achieved over the short time it was in operation.



From your reference -

"In February 2012, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that Clean Energy Future carbon price scheme had not deterred new investment in the coal industry, as spending on exploration had increased by 62% in 2010-2011, more than any other mineral commodity. "

"Falls in carbon emissions were observed following implementation of this policy.[6] It was noted that emissions from sectors subject to the pricing mechanism were 1.0% lower[7] and nine months after the introduction of the pricing scheme, Australia's carbon dioxide emissions from electricity generation had fallen to a 10-year low, with coal generation down 11% from 2008 to 2009.[8] However, attribution of these trends to carbon pricing have been disputed, with Frontier Economics claiming trends are largely explained by factors unrelated to the carbon tax.[9][10]"

Seems like much ado about nothing. Wink

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:40pm:
They are the cheapest, or most economically efficient way to reduce GHG emissions.


So you want to decrease water vapour too? Isn't Australia a dry continent already?
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #51 - May 13th, 2019 at 6:53pm
 
I think you managed to completely miss the point in every single response Lee. Is your strategy to be far too stupid to respond to?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #52 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:09pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 6:53pm:
I think you managed to completely miss the point in every single response Lee. Is your strategy to be far too stupid to respond to?


Then perhaps you need to enunciate your position better.

Tell us about all these GHG's everyone wants to get rid of.

I really can't help you with economics, because you have a belief. And your belief, at least according o you, is always right.
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #53 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:28pm
 
If you didn't know what a GHG is, you should have said at the beginning so you didn't waste all this time pretending to know what you are talking about.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #54 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:43pm
 
freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:28pm:
If you didn't know what a GHG is, you should have said at the beginning so you didn't waste all this time pretending to know what you are talking about.


GHG's include water vapour, according to NASA the major GHG.

"Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change"

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.html

perhaps you need to take a closer look at your belief systems.

And then of course, if you get your wish and reduce CO2, what will supply the energy we require.

Renewables in Australia don't even generate enough for the Hospitals in Melbourne's CBD.

And then there are further problems on the horizon that have implications for Australia.

"Australian wind project owners worried as Senvion faces insolvency"

https://reneweconomy.com.au/australian-wind-project-owners-worried-as-senvion-fa...


And related -

"German manufacturer of wind turbine towers and foundations Ambau has filed for bankruptcy at the Cuxhaven district court."

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2019/02/18/ambau-files-for-bankruptcy/

The main reason for the bankruptcy filing is reportedly insolvency due to the lack of orders.

And of course all that concrete that goes into making the bases.

In Europe windpower is on the nose.

"Onshore wind is doing no better. The most recent auction for wind contracts in Germany took place in February and was radically undersubscribed, with only 476 MW of a possible 700 MW being awarded "

https://windeurope.org/newsroom/news/german-onshore-wind-auction-under-subscribe...

But you can hope that the comparatively tiny Australian market will remain immune.

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #55 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:30pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:10pm:
The extra cost is a serious incentive to reduce carbon dioxide output and thus improve the bottom line while remaining competitive in the market.


If the market is similarly affected there is no pressure on prices.

And seeing as part of Labor's policy is that imports will be affected if not taxed at source, there will be less incentive.


If the market is similarly affected there is no pressure on prices.

But it isn't similarly affected greener producers get a much better deal on cost those who fail to keep up fail and those who produce better product reap the benefits.

Your argument could be considered in theory but we did have a price on carbon for a short period and your prediction was not the outcome experienced. You have already been proven to be wrong.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #56 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:08pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
But it isn't similarly affected greener producers get a much better deal on cost those who fail to keep up fail and those who produce better product reap the benefits.


That presupposes that there are greener options. Wink

Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
Your argument could be considered in theory but we did have a price on carbon for a short period and your prediction was not the outcome experienced. You have already been proven to be wrong.


You obviously didn't read my response to FD where he cited wki.

lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 6:40pm:
However, attribution of these trends to carbon pricing have been disputed, with Frontier Economics claiming trends are largely explained by factors unrelated to the carbon tax.[


Now you can take that as you like it. It would seem there is no proof that the carbon tax did anything.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #57 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:20pm
 
lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:08pm:
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
But it isn't similarly affected greener producers get a much better deal on cost those who fail to keep up fail and those who produce better product reap the benefits.


That presupposes that there are greener options. Wink

Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:03pm:
Your argument could be considered in theory but we did have a price on carbon for a short period and your prediction was not the outcome experienced. You have already been proven to be wrong.


You obviously didn't read my response to FD where he cited wki.

lee wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 6:40pm:
However, attribution of these trends to carbon pricing have been disputed, with Frontier Economics claiming trends are largely explained by factors unrelated to the carbon tax.[


Now you can take that as you like it. It would seem there is no proof that the carbon tax did anything.


You want to rely on the guys who said this ?

Quote:
While the Morrison government has abandoned the national energy guarantee because conservatives complain that emissions reduction policies drive up power prices, the new research finds that critique is misguided.

Power prices for households would fall by 2030 under four different scenarios modelled by Frontier Economics business as usual and emissions reduction targets of 26%, 45% and 65%.

The research says the price reductions would vary state-by-state, but business as usual would result in an average saving of 18.5%.


Quote:
Now you can take that as you like it. It would seem there is no proof that the carbon tax did anything


I have not read that study but find it a bit strange that the trends moved with the carbon price in place and returned to the previous direction when it was removed. Possible but Looks a bit suspicious maybe ?
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #58 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:21pm
 
Lee does not allow himself to disagree with the claim that carbon taxes reduce emissions. He can only hold aloft his ignorance.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #59 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:42pm
 
Dnarever wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 9:20pm:
I have not read that study but find it a bit strange that the trends moved with the carbon price in place and returned to the previous direction when it was removed. Possible but Looks a bit suspicious maybe ?



Ah yes. The infamous maybe. Wink
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