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carbon taxes are the best (Read 17124 times)
freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #30 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:27pm:
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:13pm:
Would you like to elaborate?


Seeing as you raised the subject of economics, I would have thought you knew.

The sensitivity to price is measured in its elasticity or inelasticity.

A common product with many suppliers will have an inelastic price, as the suppliers fight for market share.

A scarce product with few suppliers will be largely elastic as the consumer has limited sources of purchase.

Both water and electricity are largely elastic. As people won't forego them.

Ice creams on the other hand are largely inelastic. There being many suppliers and also the fact that it comes from discretionary spending.



Crap. We are talking about the quantity consumed here, not disconnecting from the grid. With water especially, it's nothing to do with people not wanting to go without. It's just that it is currently so cheap people do not think about the price, unless they fill a swimming pool with it.

Carbon emissions are very easy to reduce with pricing mechanisms, because no-one actually wants an emission. Between the things people actually want and the emissions, there are at least several stages in the delivery chain where emissions can be reduced, often significantly for little increase in the end price.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #31 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:40pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
We are talking about the quantity consumed here, not disconnecting from the grid.


And yet I never raised that. Wink

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
It's just that it is currently so cheap people do not think about the price, unless they fill a swimming pool with it.



And as the price goes up through water rates and charges people still use it. Because they have to.

You have never heard people complaining about water and electricity charges? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
Carbon emissions are very easy to reduce with pricing mechanisms, because no-one actually wants an emission.


Got a reference for that? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin How about natural emissions? Should we find a way to tax that as well IF nobody wants an emission?

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
Between the things people actually want and the emissions, there are at least several stages in the delivery chain where emissions can be reduced, often significantly for little increase in the end price.


Oh so economics doesn't suit your argument any more? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #32 - May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm
 
Quote:
And yet I never raised that.


Yes you did. You just did not realise. You said:

Quote:
Both water and electricity are largely elastic. As people won't forego them.


What do you mean by forego, other than not use any at all? Are we back to the special school of economics where the price has no impact at all on behaviour?

Quote:
And as the price goes up through water rates and charges people still use it. Because they have to.


Earth to Lee: they do not use as much. If it were free, people would use a lot more. As the goal of climate action is a reduction in emissions, not a complete stop, a tax is an entirely appropriate response. Are you going to respond to every post of mine by being too thick to comprehend the difference between reducing your usage and going without?

Quote:
Got a reference for that? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin How about natural emissions? Should we find a way to tax that as well IF nobody wants an emission?


How about common sense. No-one actually wants GHG emissions. No-one directly consumes electricity either for that matter. They are both just one of many ways to get the various good and services that we actually want, which is why consumption does vary considerably with price.

Are you actually arguing that a price on GHG emissions does not affect GHG emissions, or just having trouble comprehending how it happens? Your strategy appears to be to shy away from the "really stupid" in favour of the "little bit stupid".

Do all climate skeptics struggle so much with basic concepts?
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #33 - May 12th, 2019 at 4:46pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Yes you did. You just did not realise. You said:

Quote:
Both water and electricity are largely elastic. As people won't forego them.



yes petal. And NOTHING about going off grid.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
What do you mean by forego, other than not use any at all?


Very good. Now going off grid and using water and electricity is not foregoing them. Wink

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Are we back to the special school of economics where the price has no impact at all on behaviour?


No petal. We are back to the normal school of economics where prices are either largely elastic or inelastic.  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Earth to Lee: they do not use as much.


How much has your water usage gone down? Electricity? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
How about common sense.



Oh you mean the silent majority? How does one determine the silent majority is in fact a majority? Wink

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
No-one actually wants GHG emissions.


Yes we do. it is been estimated that without GHG's the earth would be about 33C cooler.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Are you actually arguing that a price on GHG emissions does not affect GHG emissions, or just having trouble comprehending how it happens?


The emitters in the same industry all have the same problem. Across industries it will vary. Therefore they will all pass on any increased costs. Now some industries may be able to mitigate emissions. If they can't then no amount of tax is going to decrease their emissions.

Logic isn't your strong suit is it?
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #34 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm
 
Quote:
No petal. We are back to the normal school of economics where prices are either largely elastic or inelastic.


Crap.

Quote:
The emitters in the same industry all have the same problem. Across industries it will vary. Therefore they will all pass on any increased costs. Now some industries may be able to mitigate emissions. If they can't then no amount of tax is going to decrease their emissions.

Logic isn't your strong suit is it?


It's not yours. Even if an industry cannot reduce emissions, their customers can. And the absolute worst case scenario is you pay tax.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #35 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:33pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
Crap.


We understand your view of economics is that it is just a word in the dictionary. Never mind.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
Even if an industry cannot reduce emissions, their customers can.


If  an industry can't reduce their emissions their is nothing they can do to reduce prices. Most of the CO2 is in the manufacturing. Not in the moving and storage.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
And the absolute worst case scenario is you pay tax.


Yes petal. And that is a cost to business. If it is a cost to business prices will increase to keep the level of profit. That impacts the consumer.
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #36 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm
 
Lee, you seem to be agreeing with me that carbon taxes will reduce emissions, but complaining that it will not happen uniformly between industries. Is that right?

Quote:
If  an industry can't reduce their emissions their is nothing they can do to reduce prices.


But their customers can still reduce their emissions.

BTW, what industries are you talking about that cannot reduce their emissions?

Quote:
Most of the CO2 is in the manufacturing. Not in the moving and storage.


Ah, so trucks and refrigerators aren't responsible for much of our emissions?

Quote:
Yes petal. And that is a cost to business. If it is a cost to business prices will increase to keep the level of profit. That impacts the consumer.


If one tax goes up and another goes down, what will happen to the affordability of the end product?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #37 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:02pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Lee, you seem to be agreeing with me that carbon taxes will reduce emissions, but complaining that it will not happen uniformly between industries. Is that right?


It depends on whether a particular industry can reduce emissions. Whether there are processes that produce less CO2. There may be or there may not be.

A simplistic "a carbon tax will reduce emissions" is a nonsense.

So a carbon tax MAY reduce emissions. It is not a given.

So give me an example of an industry where emissions can be reduced, economically hopefully.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
But their customers can still reduce their emissions.


How can a customer reduce their emissions? Which customers, which industries.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
BTW, what industries are you talking about that cannot reduce their emissions?



Didn't you read about cement manufacture and steel manufacture?

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Ah, so trucks and refrigerators aren't responsible for much of our emissions?


So you would have ev's? You don't want refrigeration?

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
If one tax goes up and another goes down, what will happen to the affordability of the end product?



If the one that goes up is a carbon tax and it is fully rebated to the consumer, as promised, where is the room for another tax to come down?
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freediver
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #38 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:02pm:
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Lee, you seem to be agreeing with me that carbon taxes will reduce emissions, but complaining that it will not happen uniformly between industries. Is that right?


It depends on whether a particular industry can reduce emissions. Whether there are processes that produce less CO2. There may be or there may not be.

A simplistic "a carbon tax will reduce emissions" is a nonsense.

So a carbon tax MAY reduce emissions. It is not a given.


Yes it is. It falls into the bleeding obvious category. Are we back to the special school of economics here? Or are you trying the tactic of not quite saying the incredibly stupid, just holding it out as something you might say if you weren't doing a jellyfish impression? The "I have not yet graduated from the special school of economics" version?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #39 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:09pm
 
What sound does a jellyfish make, Lee?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #40 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:27pm
 
freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
Yes it is.


is that in relation to the simplistic?

BTW - you didn't respond to the rest. Why is that?

Also have you heard of the new refrigerant R744?

magic stuff apparently.

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
Are we back to the special school of economics here?


You haven't got back to me about pricing elasticity and you want to be taken seriously on economics? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
The "I have not yet graduated from the special school of economics" version?


That would be your class. Because you are "SPESHUL".

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #41 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:09pm:
What sound does a jellyfish make, Lee?



karnal is now going to give us his learned experience with pricing elasticity. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #42 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:09pm:
What sound does a jellyfish make, Lee?



karnal is now going to give us his learned experience with pricing elasticity. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Don't want to say, eh?

FD?
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #43 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:32pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm:
Don't want to say, eh?


I have already explained about pricing elasticity. Perhaps if you can't comment on it you might do some reading.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #44 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:47pm
 
lee wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:32pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:29pm:
Don't want to say, eh?


I have already explained about pricing elasticity. Perhaps if you can't comment on it you might do some reading.


Ah yes, but you didn't say what sound a jellyfish makes.

FD?
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