Setanta wrote on Mar 18^th, 2019 at 7:56pm:


Setanta evidently thinks this position is palatable to a diverse, accepting and civilized society.

It is not.

It is deeply condescending and prejudiced.

You are not fooling anyone with your euphemisms like "ideology", in an attempt to distinguish a person's personal beliefs from who they really are. They are one in the same - 'ideology' is not some magical entity that exists in some void totally isolated from the people who created and adhere to said ideology. Beliefs are are what makes and defines a person - its as simple as that. So please stop with this transparent nonsense that someone can be a wonderful, kind upstanding person, while at the same time adhere to beliefs that you clearly see as primitive and dangerous.

And once you come to this realisation, you might actually consider alternatives to such blanket broad brushing like "Islam demands violence from it's followers". Yes, broad brushing - a term that might surprise you in this context, given it is typically used in relation to people. But thats exactly the point - 'Islam' *IS* 'people'. 'Ideology' *IS* 'people'. You can't separate them. How could you? As in, 'Islam' to ~2 billion muslims are 2 billion different things. It is not one big monlithic unchanging entity that magically exists outside the identity and personality of people.

Now back to your prejudice: given that ideology/beliefs are inseparable to a person's identity, your position that "I blame Islam not the people" - in relation to your broadbrushing that "Islam demands violence", really comes down to one of two possibilities: 1. muslims don't really believe that Islam demands violence - in which case you are saying you know better about people's own beliefs - or in other words, you think muslims are dribbling idiots who can't even comprehend their own religion. Or 2. they actually do believe they must carry out violence, but restrain themselves for whatever reason - in which case these people are deeply sinister. Neither of these two possibilities is at all compatible with your claim that these people can still be lovely people - or if it does, its only in a deeply condescending way - as in a "awww isn't it sweet these imbecile/primitives try and be nice" kind of way.

We saw a mixture of these two playing out in the shameful reactions to Yasmin Abdel-Magied daring to suggest that *TO HER* Islam is the most feminist religion. All the vitriol she received from this stemmed from either assuming, patronisingly, that she was ignorant about her own religion (a complete contradiction in terms when you think about it), or that she was straight out lying - as of course muslims must do, doncha know? What she was singularly denied - including amongst progressives I might add - was agency as a thinking human being who actually has personal beliefs of her own. No, of course, "Islam" was then, and remains something only that is a set in stone monolithic entity magically devoid of any individual's personal interpretation and beliefs.

Quote:


That's what the Quran says Gandalf. Putting on the hysterics and trying to make it a personal attack doesn't change the facts.

Do you have a problem with stupid people?

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:57am:


Of course it does  FD - because you and setanta say so.

The beliefs of actual muslims can and are disregarded (unless they're the extremists of course).

aquascoot wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:59am:


All religious institutions are run by crooks and con men. They are so pervasive they get special privileges from the government such as tax free status and plenty of money to run schools etc. Hell, they even got 55 mill from morriscum to up their security when no one else was offered this

Sir lastnail wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 10:07am:



its a tricky one nail.

i certainly agree politicians are very hypocritical in the way they pander to religion just to get a vote.

i'm just not sure what you replace dedication to a religion with?

dedication to "pleasuring yourself"?
dedication to a sporting team ?
dedication to getting cash or chicks?.

i would like to say dedication to walking the narrow road to success but most people dont seem to be doing that.
in fact the crowds leaving a mosque or a church look a bit more inspired then the crowds leaving a mcdonalds or a shopping mall 

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 10:03am:


If you say "this is what the quran says" and a muslim says "I disagree - it actually says this"

What then is "Islam"?

Also, there is no distinction between "Islam" and "what muslims believe". None whatsoever.

aquascoot wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 10:24am:


You replace it with science and rational understanding. There is so much to learn about the universe but these inward looking people think that everything is explained in one old book full of ancient scribblings and bronzed age myths. In the 21st century it is quite disappointing to see that people are still attracted to this

Sir lastnail wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 1:12pm:


Precisely my point ... the old guff in the Quran is also treated as nonsense by the vast majority of Muslims.

Only the radical nutters on both teams of religion (Christian and Islamic) follow the nonsense in those old books. 

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 12:46pm:




If anyone abandons their religion [ISLAM], and if he 'bad mouths' ISLAM, kill him.

This is what Allah actually says.....

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89


And i don't see any exemption or exceptions, being mentioned gandalf ?

But hey, that's just me.



Yadda, the simple.



Allah's Apostle also concurs with Allah.

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260


.


But we all know, that it is only the superior moslems,       who are willing to contradict Allah, and Allah's Apostle.





Q.
Is that what you tell you imam gandalf ?

Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 12:51pm:








Everyday ?

have a look here -------- >


http://thereligionofpeace.com/



But why are Christians being murdered by moslems ?






.




ARGUMENT;
There is no ISLAMIC source which has more authority or influence upon ISLAMIC law and upon the actions of moslems in following their faith, than the Holy Koran.




"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29




.




"ISLAM ES PAZ"


IMAGE.....



Everyone knows that true ISLAM, is a religion of peace.

/sarc off

Laugh till you cry wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 1:59pm:


You make a good argument, but I still say he has some mighty stiff competition in both categories.

Yadda wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 2:13pm:


Hands up if you saw that one coming.

Laugh till you cry wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 1:59pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 1:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 12:46pm:


If you rewrite the Quran, it is a different religion Gandalf.

John Smith wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:29pm:


In my experience people from every other religion actually want people to know what is in their holy books rather than trying to cover it up constantly.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:23pm:


But what if you lie about it?

Does that make a difference?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:36am:

Polite Grandalf, sounds like a front.

John Smith wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:33pm:


Shurely shome mishtake.

Grandalf is very polite these days, and Muslims are lovely people.

I can feel the love.

Johnnie wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 10:33pm:



Taqiya?

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:58pm:


By "hide and misrepresent" do you mean painstakingly spending years patiently explaining our interpretation verse by verse, only for you to run around screaming "liar" and shove words down our mouths?

I never understood the 'peaceful majority are irrelevant' meme.

If they trully were irrelevant, the entire world would pretty much be in flames, and we would all be dead.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 9:24am:


No it isn't grappler. If it was, then you certainly wouldn't have your cozy, (relatively) prosperous existence in a rich and overwhelmingly harmonious society churning out memes on an internet forum.

And the extremists won't "get around to everybody" while ever the peaceful majority remains relevant.

I know its human nature to focus on the bad and the scary, but its high time we gave a shout out to the good things we have, and why we have them.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 8:50am:


Islam is what is in the Quran. All your spin doctoring does not change that, and you lose all credibility when you casually change what the Quran says all the time. Not even other Muslims believe you. You do not speak for the vast majority of Muslims, you are merely their apologist. They ban you from their forums.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 1:17pm:


What is your version of Islam?

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 1:08pm:


With respect FD, thats rather arrogant for someone who concedes he has only spoken at length on Islamic jurisprudence to about 3 muslims, all on an internet forum.

I humbly suggest you don't know the first thing about what "the vast majority of Muslims" believe. All you can reference is some hot-heads on internet forums, but I can assure you these are not representative at all of the wider muslim community. I actually talk to muslims, face to face, on a near daily basis. At mosques, at my children's school, on any number of community forums (real forums, not the internet kind). Day in day out. I think I actually am qualified to make judgments on what "the vast majority of Muslims" believe - certainly, I humbly suggest, more than you.

And to me whats clearly representative of the "vast majority of Muslims" is the resident Imam of our local mosque who preaches week in, week out about nothing but peace and love and how there is no place for violence in Islam - or for that matter, humanity as a whole. Funnily enough he quotes scripture, all from memory of course, to reinforce this message. Funny that when he does that week in week out, none of the hundreds of muslims who turn up every week seem to object to those apparent "lies" about the Quran. No one ever suggests that he is wrong, or lying. We don't because we are all on a unity ticket. If the Quran, and Islam really is some hateful, violent doctrine of hate, there's certainly no sign of that at my mosque - and it is by no means some fringe Islamic sect.

So sorry FD, if I treat with some contempt your lecturing to me about me not representative of the vast majority of muslims - as if you are somehow an authority on the subject. I dare say I speak to more muslims in one day than you have in your entire life.

double post

Tell it to the Valencians on Anti-Invasion Day...

https://www.officeholidays.com/countries/spain/valencian_community_day.php

"Known as 'Día de la Comunidad Valenciana', this holiday commemorates the capture of the city of Valencia from Moorish forces in 1238 by King James I of Aragon.

Founded as Valencia by the Romans, the city passed from Christian to Moorish control from the 8th century to the 13th century.

In the spring of 1238, King James I of Aragon laid siege to Valencia and after five months, the Moors finally surrendered on 28 September. On 9 October, James took possession of the city."

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 9:34am:


It isn't? But, G, what about all those terrorist attacks we've had? I believe there was one recently in New Zealand.

It may have had something to do with graffiti, I'm not sure. Haven't you been listening to FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:36am:


So you think most Germans were not just normal people led by ideology but a nation of psychos? Ideology is pretty much the only thing that can make good people do bad things because they believe they are doing good, God's will or building a better world.

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion(inserted by me: Ideology)."

Quote:


You may interpret the words in your book as you like G, I think you are a decent human being from reading your posts over the years. You are but one of billions. There is no denying the barbarity in the Q or the Hadiths.

""Yes, I can take you as a human being, drink a beer with you, BBQ a pork chop""


Looks like its Sets fo a BBq

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 7:04pm:


Those inane pew survey debates we had were over hudud law FD, in particularly death for apostasy and stoning for adultery. None of these things are even in the Quran. Indeed in regards the former, the Quran clearly and explicitly commands the exact opposite (2:256 and 18:29). So its not exactly relevant to your claim to know what "the vast majority" muslims think about the Quran. And in fact everything else in those pew surveys that did have some relevancy to what we are talking about (eg rejection of terrorism), you refused to discuss them - and deflected every time to focusing on cuddly Malaysia and its apparent support for hudud law.

So whats the score now - regarding your extensive experience on what the "vast majority of muslims believe" about the Quran? So far we have 2 or 3 pretty extreme muslims on an internet forum, and cherry picking a pew survey that didn't even discus what the Quran said.

I can only reiterate my previous point that I would venture that I speak to more everyday normal muslims in one day than you have in your entire life. And you continue to sit there with a straight face and tell me its you, not me, who understands the belief of the "vast majority" of muslims.

Credibility much?

Setanta wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 11:39pm:


There is a serious problem with this attitude set, and you may not even realise why. What you are doing is denying me agency  - agency to have a valid view on Islam. In your world you have a monopoly on truth, and anyone else's claim to a different truth is invalid. In this situation it is quite impossible for you to be anything other than condescending when you say things like "I think you are a decent human being" - right before you effectively say "I know better than you" (or worse, "you are deliberately dishonest"). Its exactly the same thing that happened to Yasmin when she was howled down by similar self-styled custodians of "truth" when she dared claim "to me Islam is the most feminine religion". She even went out of her way to specify *TO ME*. I mean what arrogance, what condescension to deny as invald someone's own personal beliefs?

Setanta wrote on Mar 20^th, 2019 at 11:47pm:


Again, your whole sentiment here is premised on the false assumption that you, as the supreme arbiter of truth, "know" the nature of these beliefs, and that "justifying them as the one true way, good, true or rational" - necessarily is an affront to yourself and humanity. This false assumption of course is that it entails me wagging my finger at you and judging your lifestyle as wicked and evil etc. But what if me justifying my beliefs as the one true way involved insisting that everyone has right to liberty and freedom to choose their own way, that violence of any form must be rejected and coexistence and diversity was a universal good for society? See here's my point set, you are not actually railing against people having a universal moral code per se, or even promoting such a code to others, as you hit at here - since you do this yourself in the way you preach your own code. You only take issue at the preaching of moral codes (in this case Islam) that you have already pre-determined as universally barbaric.

And so it comes back to being denied agency. In your ideal world I must be ashamed of my beliefs, and any attempts to argue my case or dare suggest that they are beliefs that are suitable or compatible with society must be met with the swiftest of rebukes - reminding me that my version of truth is simply wrong - with a few bonus insults of my prophet thrown in for good measure. Much the same as how gays in the past - and even gays presently in most of the Islamic world - are accepted only as long as they shut up and conceal their dirty habbit and beliefs from wider society. For muslims, we shouldn't be "out and proud" about our beliefs as it were, as that would necessarily entail "trying to justify them as the one true way, good, true or rational" - which as I said before, is only intolerable when it involves beliefs that Setanta has, in his wisdom, already deemed as invalid.

On the subject of your beliefs, oh pious one, which is the higher authority: the Koran or the Australian Constitution? I believe it is the Australian Constitution, and that makes me a blasphemer, as far as Islam is concerned, because the Koran is the Holy word of God and his prophet. Of course, you will not answer the question because it either compromises you with Islam or Australia.

issuevoter wrote on Mar 21^st, 2019 at 12:02pm:


And I believe in the Quran *AND* the Australian constitution. They are not mutually exclusive.

You insult both our intelligence by reducing this into such a simplistic and patently absurd either/or dichotomy. Did you ever stop and think what you even mean by "higher authority"? It is clearly a 'gotcha' exercise to bait me into saying I am not loyal to Australia because I am a filthy traitorous muslim. Yet, funnily enough, I can't imagine you asking a christian the same question in regards the bible with the same venom. Even though you must surely know that the situation of a christian in this regard is identical to the situation of a muslim.

Perhaps if I put it this way: the Quran fundamentally is a guide book for a journey - the journey of life. It guides us to stay on the "right" path. What is the right path? The path that brings us closer to God through worship. What does worship entail in practice? Inherent in all humans is a fundamental understanding of right from wrong, good vs evil. We all have an inherent understanding of what this, so it doesn't need to be spelled out: be peaceful not violent, respectful not offensive, patient not rash, understanding and empathetic. I like to frame it like this: everything we do in life is either sin or worship. Its not quite as simple as that, as there are some grey areas - but its a good starting principle. 'worship' is simply anything we do with righteous intentions - everything down to sleeping, eating and even breathing - sustains life, and therefore is an inherent good. The Quran is not so much a step by step practical guide on everything we need to do to stay on this righteous path, it is more a motivational roadmap, reminders of the state of mind we need to keep, the self control and patience. The key to the Quran is not the details, there are hardly any - they key is it motivates and inspires us to keep on the righteous path.

The details of life - the practical actions taken in a temporal world, as I keep telling people, is just background noise. As I said, the Quran is just to remind us of the right sort of underlying attitudes we need in order to live life. The details we work out for ourselves. The Australian Constitution, if you like, is one such 'detail'. And by that, I take that to mean Australian law in general (presumably stemming from the constitution). My assumption is that Australian law, in a free and open society as ours, is inherently good. I don't believe it can be said that obeying Australian law necessarily compels us to do evil. That doesn't make much sense to me. Therefore, obeying, adhering, 'recognising the authority' of the Australian Constitution, is essentially nothing other than obeying, adhering to the Quran itself - since it is an inherent good, and inherent goodness is commanded by the Quran.

I hope you see here that your proposition that its either the "authority" of the Quran or the authority of the AC, is nonsensical. It could even be said that both are one in the same. Similar to another answer I gave you when I said that Islam is already in Australia - which I know went down so well with you

Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2019 at 2:46pm:



We had a Muslim guy at work a couple of years back , Come Ramadan, he couldn't put a full day in as he was too malnourished, f@rked sh1t up , I sat him down and told him he either needed to start eating or take the rest of the month off unpaid   

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2019 at 3:44pm:



You only get a weeks sick here, And from memory he had used most of it, And to top it off his name was Mohammed lol

He would most certainly have been able to use any sick, long service ,But he had only been with the company a couple of years

aquascoot wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:59am:


Jebus was a nothing! Had 12 diciples. Got crucified.

Now the heads of the Christian Church. The Popes. Boy! Were they Warlords!

Onward Christian soldiers...blah blah blah blah blah

aquascoot wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:59am:

Brill .. you nailed their spirit of taqiyya. They will act butt-hurt if that's  what it takes to really hurt your butt.

aquascoot wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:59am:

Brill .. you nailed their spirit of taqiyya. They will act butt-hurt if that's  what it takes to really hurt your butt.

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2019 at 6:22pm:


FD, what were the results from the vast majority of Muslims?

What were the totals from around the world?

That's a question.

Frank wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2019 at 7:54pm:


Good to see, old boy - virtue-signalling your butt-pain.

Yes, you have to take it to give it, nobody's getting any younger, life's a struggle, I'll have what she's having, miam miam.

How divine.

Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2019 at 10:57pm:


You've nailed it, Bias. An Aussie kills 50-odd Muslims while they're praying, and the dirty bastards won't even stand for our judges.

PATHETIC, LEFTARDS, JUST PATHETIC.

Stoning to death an innocent woman seems to be easy to organise in Mussoland..... or 38 years in prison for defending in 'court'women who 'fail' to wear hijab.... or lovely Musso courts with a 100% strike rate against the accused, every one of 'em guilty as sin and if it's a mistake Allah will sort it out for them later... (Jesus)...

What a mob mentality lunacy ......

As the Muslims say, tough titties, off with their heads. In a non-violent way of course.

I suspect a large number of people identify themselves as Muzlum due to cultural affiliations, without much thought Islam's dogma or origin. The same would be true of most "religions." Most people do not think very deeply on cosmic matters except to go along with those who speak, or have spoken, loudest, as in ancient scripture. That's the problem. Welcome to Lemming World.

Oh, I'm sure they're just a minority, Captain.

freediver wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2019 at 8:06am: