Setanta wrote on Mar 18^th, 2019 at 7:56pm:


Setanta evidently thinks this position is palatable to a diverse, accepting and civilized society.

It is not.

It is deeply condescending and prejudiced.

You are not fooling anyone with your euphemisms like "ideology", in an attempt to distinguish a person's personal beliefs from who they really are. They are one in the same - 'ideology' is not some magical entity that exists in some void totally isolated from the people who created and adhere to said ideology. Beliefs are are what makes and defines a person - its as simple as that. So please stop with this transparent nonsense that someone can be a wonderful, kind upstanding person, while at the same time adhere to beliefs that you clearly see as primitive and dangerous.

And once you come to this realisation, you might actually consider alternatives to such blanket broad brushing like "Islam demands violence from it's followers". Yes, broad brushing - a term that might surprise you in this context, given it is typically used in relation to people. But thats exactly the point - 'Islam' *IS* 'people'. 'Ideology' *IS* 'people'. You can't separate them. How could you? As in, 'Islam' to ~2 billion muslims are 2 billion different things. It is not one big monlithic unchanging entity that magically exists outside the identity and personality of people.

Now back to your prejudice: given that ideology/beliefs are inseparable to a person's identity, your position that "I blame Islam not the people" - in relation to your broadbrushing that "Islam demands violence", really comes down to one of two possibilities: 1. muslims don't really believe that Islam demands violence - in which case you are saying you know better about people's own beliefs - or in other words, you think muslims are dribbling idiots who can't even comprehend their own religion. Or 2. they actually do believe they must carry out violence, but restrain themselves for whatever reason - in which case these people are deeply sinister. Neither of these two possibilities is at all compatible with your claim that these people can still be lovely people - or if it does, its only in a deeply condescending way - as in a "awww isn't it sweet these imbecile/primitives try and be nice" kind of way.

We saw a mixture of these two playing out in the shameful reactions to Yasmin Abdel-Magied daring to suggest that *TO HER* Islam is the most feminist religion. All the vitriol she received from this stemmed from either assuming, patronisingly, that she was ignorant about her own religion (a complete contradiction in terms when you think about it), or that she was straight out lying - as of course muslims must do, doncha know? What she was singularly denied - including amongst progressives I might add - was agency as a thinking human being who actually has personal beliefs of her own. No, of course, "Islam" was then, and remains something only that is a set in stone monolithic entity magically devoid of any individual's personal interpretation and beliefs.

Quote:


That's what the Quran says Gandalf. Putting on the hysterics and trying to make it a personal attack doesn't change the facts.

Do you have a problem with stupid people?

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:57am:


Of course it does  FD - because you and setanta say so.

The beliefs of actual muslims can and are disregarded (unless they're the extremists of course).

aquascoot wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 9:59am:


All religious institutions are run by crooks and con men. They are so pervasive they get special privileges from the government such as tax free status and plenty of money to run schools etc. Hell, they even got 55 mill from morriscum to up their security when no one else was offered this

Sir lastnail wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 10:07am:



its a tricky one nail.

i certainly agree politicians are very hypocritical in the way they pander to religion just to get a vote.

i'm just not sure what you replace dedication to a religion with?

dedication to "pleasuring yourself"?
dedication to a sporting team ?
dedication to getting cash or chicks?.

i would like to say dedication to walking the narrow road to success but most people dont seem to be doing that.
in fact the crowds leaving a mosque or a church look a bit more inspired then the crowds leaving a mcdonalds or a shopping mall 

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 10:03am:


If you say "this is what the quran says" and a muslim says "I disagree - it actually says this"

What then is "Islam"?

Also, there is no distinction between "Islam" and "what muslims believe". None whatsoever.

aquascoot wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 10:24am:


You replace it with science and rational understanding. There is so much to learn about the universe but these inward looking people think that everything is explained in one old book full of ancient scribblings and bronzed age myths. In the 21st century it is quite disappointing to see that people are still attracted to this

Sir lastnail wrote on Mar 19^th, 2019 at 1:12pm:


Precisely my point ... the old guff in the Quran is also treated as nonsense by the vast majority of Muslims.

Only the radical nutters on both teams of religion (Christian and Islamic) follow the nonsense in those old books.