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the capitalist socialist (Read 1118 times)
freediver
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the capitalist socialist
Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:13pm
 
When Gandalf first revealed he was a socialist, I asked what kind. It turns out he is the capitalist kind. It's hasn't really progressed from there. I think it's a bit like being a peace-loving Muslim.

He won't say if he made this crap up himself or is just parroting it from somewhere else. Perhaps he is embarrassed about where he got it from:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13th, 2019 at 7:20pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2019 at 6:23pm:
Gandalf, have you figure out yet whether "not starving" is the best that capitalism can offer?


Capitalism offers a lot FD, so long as you are the one at the top of the food chain. The veritable "one percenters" For everyone else? Not so much.


Yes, Gandalf did actually ponder that:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 3:00pm:
The point is, if the best capitalism can offer is "not starving", then its hardly a great selling point for it is it?


Gandalf the exploiter:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:57am:
And yes I would prefer the Bangladeshi garment workers are able to get slave-like work if it prevents them starving. And I would definitely continue to do my part to exploit them by buying my target shirts - so that at least something ends up in the meagre pockets of the exploited worker - as opposed to, you know, dying.


Oh no, Gandalf is taking their freedom:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:43pm:
How is a garment worker in Bangladesh "free" when her choices are a) for her and her family to starve to death and b) work at unregulated exploitative shithole a, b or c that will pay you no more than you need to stay alive?

I note you mentioned previously non-slaves even have the option to travel to work. Wow, lucky them! Hey, half starving garment worker with no savings and the sole income for your whole family - you are free to take that non-existent car of yours and spend half your day driving yourself God-knows how many miles on unsealed dangerous roads- just so you can find a job just as crappy as the ones available in your village!
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.JaSin.
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #1 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:16pm
 
You're not trying to detract like Aussie does?

Afterall - you do have a 'poor' Jesuit sitting on the golden throne of Papal wealth in the Vatican.  Wink
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Spatchcock
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #2 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:23pm
 
Cartalism and socialism are not necessarily contradictory terms.

You can have a free market economic system with a government that spends more on social services than necessary, essentially subsidising it, as we have in Australia.

Lots of people would describe Australia as socialist. It definitely has socialist policies. However, socialism is used as a dirty word by ideologies with conservative political leanings and military/government associations.

This is because the ideas of socialism are reflective of the ideas of communism, and communism was the enemy and a threat to the government maintaining confidence.

So again, ideas were very bad and needed to be suppressed, not because free healthcare is bad, but because socialism is communism and if people realised these good ideas are socialist then people might trust the government less due to "electoral interference".

This is why people campaign against socialism in high profile places. Because they are government lobbyists and influence agents.

There is no way you could say helping the needy is bad.

But they would rather you feel that this system is bad and watch the homeless freeze and starve than allow "electoral interference" to occur.

Everything the government does is for votes. Everything the government is advised to do by departments is for political stability.

The end.
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Ye Grappler
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #3 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:43pm
 
Fair question - What Kind?

But there are so many grades of socialist that you need - if dealing fairly - to state which brand you are discussing.

All viable nations these days operate on a mix of capitalism and socialism, with neither being allowed to get out of control.

Some suggest that this is 'Big Brother' in action... I beg to differ... look around you....... Bob Menzies was a socialist of one kind.... as was his government.

Now please proceed.....
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Ye Grappler
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #4 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:44pm
 
Spatchcock wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:23pm:
Cartalism and socialism are not necessarily contradictory terms.

You can have a free market economic system with a government that spends more on social services than necessary, essentially subsidising it, as we have in Australia.

Lots of people would describe Australia as socialist. It definitely has socialist policies. However, socialism is used as a dirty word by ideologies with conservative political leanings and military/government associations.

This is because the ideas of socialism are reflective of the ideas of communism, and communism was the enemy and a threat to the government maintaining confidence.

So again, ideas were very bad and needed to be suppressed, not because free healthcare is bad, but because socialism is communism and if people realised these good ideas are socialist then people might trust the government less due to "electoral interference".

This is why people campaign against socialism in high profile places. Because they are government lobbyists and influence agents.

There is no way you could say helping the needy is bad.

But they would rather you feel that this system is bad and watch the homeless freeze and starve than allow "electoral interference" to occur.

Everything the government does is for votes. Everything the government is advised to do by departments is for political stability.

The end.



Wrong - start again....

On reading your full blurb, you are essentially correct..
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Spatchcock
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #5 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:46pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:44pm:
Spatchcock wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:23pm:
Cartalism and socialism are not necessarily contradictory terms.

You can have a free market economic system with a government that spends more on social services than necessary, essentially subsidising it, as we have in Australia.

Lots of people would describe Australia as socialist. It definitely has socialist policies. However, socialism is used as a dirty word by ideologies with conservative political leanings and military/government associations.

This is because the ideas of socialism are reflective of the ideas of communism, and communism was the enemy and a threat to the government maintaining confidence.

So again, ideas were very bad and needed to be suppressed, not because free healthcare is bad, but because socialism is communism and if people realised these good ideas are socialist then people might trust the government less due to "electoral interference".

This is why people campaign against socialism in high profile places. Because they are government lobbyists and influence agents.

There is no way you could say helping the needy is bad.

But they would rather you feel that this system is bad and watch the homeless freeze and starve than allow "electoral interference" to occur.

Everything the government does is for votes. Everything the government is advised to do by departments is for political stability.

The end.



Wrong - start again....

On reading your full blurb, you are essentially correct..


No this is true. A regulated free market with taxes etc exists in many places with taxes used to provide social services.
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.JaSin.
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #6 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 11:22pm
 
The ever polite Gandalf is sitting back on this one to see how FD tackles the new challenger  Wink
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Marla
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #7 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 4:54am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:13pm:
When Gandalf first revealed he was a socialist, I asked what kind. It turns out he is the capitalist kind. It's hasn't really progressed from there. I think it's a bit like being a peace-loving Muslim.

He won't say if he made this crap up himself or is just parroting it from somewhere else. Perhaps he is embarrassed about where he got it from:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13th, 2019 at 7:20pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2019 at 6:23pm:
Gandalf, have you figure out yet whether "not starving" is the best that capitalism can offer?


Capitalism offers a lot FD, so long as you are the one at the top of the food chain. The veritable "one percenters" For everyone else? Not so much.


Yes, Gandalf did actually ponder that:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 3:00pm:
The point is, if the best capitalism can offer is "not starving", then its hardly a great selling point for it is it?


Gandalf the exploiter:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:57am:
And yes I would prefer the Bangladeshi garment workers are able to get slave-like work if it prevents them starving. And I would definitely continue to do my part to exploit them by buying my target shirts - so that at least something ends up in the meagre pockets of the exploited worker - as opposed to, you know, dying.


Oh no, Gandalf is taking their freedom:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:43pm:
How is a garment worker in Bangladesh "free" when her choices are a) for her and her family to starve to death and b) work at unregulated exploitative shithole a, b or c that will pay you no more than you need to stay alive?

I note you mentioned previously non-slaves even have the option to travel to work. Wow, lucky them! Hey, half starving garment worker with no savings and the sole income for your whole family - you are free to take that non-existent car of yours and spend half your day driving yourself God-knows how many miles on unsealed dangerous roads- just so you can find a job just as crappy as the ones available in your village!



What's your point? There has been a consistent  growth for leftward movement of young people and growing support for and interest in socialism. Central to the perspective of your warped stance, genuine socialism is the understanding that there is not a single social problem confronting humanity—from climate change, to poverty and unemployment, to authoritarianism and war— Or do you support such agendas? Appears to me that you do along with racism and xenophobia.

Only through the political mobilization of the international working class in a revolutionary movement can we overturn capitalism and establish a society based on social need, not private profit.

Capitalism days are numbered. Just like your racism
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aquascoot
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #8 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:00am
 
A shocking statistic has come to light: Venezuelans lost 19 pounds on average over the past year because of food shortages.

Hunger was declining in Venezuela too until recently. The percentage of Venezuela’s population suffering from undernourishment fell from 14% in 1991 to “5% or lower” in 2015, the latest year for which the United Nations has data. Since then, the situation has rapidly deteriorated. In a single year, the number of cases of severely undernourished children in Venezuela’s capital city, Caracas, doubled.

The reason? Venezuela’s socialist economic policies, briefly sustained by fleeting high oil prices, led to hyperinflation and a societal collapse. If Venezuela continues on its present course, hunger is likely to become more widespread.

We can all be thankful that undernourishment has become rarer globally. But the case of Venezuela demonstrates that progress is not inevitable—suicidal economic policies, like socialism, can rapidly extinguish the prosperity we enjoy.
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #9 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:44am
 
I don't want to defend Venezuela but it is under sanctions and therefore restricted from being a part of the global market and trading with national economies that are.
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #10 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:49am
 
jordan is quite reflective on this


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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #11 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 8:00am
 
Spatchcock wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:44am:
I don't want to defend Venezuela but it is under sanctions and therefore restricted from being a part of the global market and trading with national economies that are.




you do realise   Venezuela was once the 4th richest country dont you with high GDP....Obama brought in sanctions in 2015...western countries dont do that lightly....

oil prices dropped  to the extent those in charge of the economy SOCIALIST   couldnt cope they didnt plan on that happening....their economy was ruined by mismanagement..and of course corruption...

the sanctions have escalated the place is now dire....my daughters motherinlaw has a sister there..been there about 40 odd years  there is almost no communication... and shes in poor health... so not good at all...
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #12 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 8:46am
 
The term “socialism” is very poorly defined. A lot of American conservatives label any government funded social programs or regulation of private industry as socialism. By that definition, all wealthy countries are both socialist and capitalist, including Switzerland and all the Scandinavian countries. It's just a question of how the two are balanced.
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #13 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 12:21pm
 
Marla wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 4:54am:
freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 10:13pm:
When Gandalf first revealed he was a socialist, I asked what kind. It turns out he is the capitalist kind. It's hasn't really progressed from there. I think it's a bit like being a peace-loving Muslim.

He won't say if he made this crap up himself or is just parroting it from somewhere else. Perhaps he is embarrassed about where he got it from:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13th, 2019 at 7:20pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2019 at 6:23pm:
Gandalf, have you figure out yet whether "not starving" is the best that capitalism can offer?


Capitalism offers a lot FD, so long as you are the one at the top of the food chain. The veritable "one percenters" For everyone else? Not so much.


Yes, Gandalf did actually ponder that:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 3:00pm:
The point is, if the best capitalism can offer is "not starving", then its hardly a great selling point for it is it?


Gandalf the exploiter:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:57am:
And yes I would prefer the Bangladeshi garment workers are able to get slave-like work if it prevents them starving. And I would definitely continue to do my part to exploit them by buying my target shirts - so that at least something ends up in the meagre pockets of the exploited worker - as opposed to, you know, dying.


Oh no, Gandalf is taking their freedom:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:43pm:
How is a garment worker in Bangladesh "free" when her choices are a) for her and her family to starve to death and b) work at unregulated exploitative shithole a, b or c that will pay you no more than you need to stay alive?

I note you mentioned previously non-slaves even have the option to travel to work. Wow, lucky them! Hey, half starving garment worker with no savings and the sole income for your whole family - you are free to take that non-existent car of yours and spend half your day driving yourself God-knows how many miles on unsealed dangerous roads- just so you can find a job just as crappy as the ones available in your village!



What's your point? There has been a consistent  growth for leftward movement of young people and growing support for and interest in socialism. Central to the perspective of your warped stance, genuine socialism is the understanding that there is not a single social problem confronting humanity—from climate change, to poverty and unemployment, to authoritarianism and war— Or do you support such agendas? Appears to me that you do along with racism and xenophobia.

Only through the political mobilization of the international working class in a revolutionary movement can we overturn capitalism and establish a society based on social need, not private profit.

Capitalism days are numbered. Just like your racism


Gandalf becomes a capitalist every time he is asked to think about it rationally, but he generally prefers to sprout empty headed socialist mantras, like you.
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Re: the capitalist socialist
Reply #14 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 1:57pm
 
The free market, entrepreneurship, private enterprise, whatever you want to call it, undeniably creates wealth for a society. This is a good thing and is to be welcomed and encouraged. However without government regulation, this wealth would go only to the business elites. This is fine, if you have no pretense about capitalism actually 'working' in the sense that it benefits all of society and lifts people out of poverty. Problem is, free marketeers like FD do have that belief - the old 'trickle down' malarky. The less regulation, the more enterprise, the more profits, and ultimately the more wealth to benefit all of society. The non-capitliasts (ie the workers) inevitably benefit because its in the best interests of the capitalists to make them benefit - as it makes for more productive workers. Thats in a nutshell what I term "capitalism" - leave the market as free as possible, and keep the government out of it = prosperity for everyone. Yay. Problem is, its complete bunkum, and its been well and trully proven as bunkum. If you want an example, look at the results of the Trump tax cuts - most of it went to business bottom lines and shareholders - bugger all to the employees.
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