Australian Politics Forum - Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage

Dnarever

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #60 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:08am

lee wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 6:41pm:

whiteknight wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 6:30pm:

Labor prepares to legislate a 'living wage' by changing the Fair Work Act

So the independent FWC will no longer be truly independent? Having to abide by what Parliament decides.

That argument applies equally to not changing the act as it was politicians who set the original standards.

i.e. politicians set the low wage standard that fair work apply. A government saying to fair work that the standard we expect you to apply is going to change is no different to using the standard that the politicians originally set.

Fair work apply fair independent rulings (or sometimes do) against the framework that live under as have every prior body. The framework regularly changes and always has.

Setting the standards expected is a function of government.

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:09pm by Dnarever »

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lee

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #61 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 11:56am

stunspore wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 6:56am:

As a coalition supporter, you are required to deny all, be skeptical against all that is negative to the coalition government.

First you would have to point out where I have denied anything. I did ask for proof, but only got assertions.

The coalition could have done this. What you have signally failed to do is prove it. Wink

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16428 Gender:	Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage Reply #62 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:00pm Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 8:27am: The Liberals have serially made political use of the AFP in recent history ? That is a question. Why don't you answer it. And then for balance look at the ALP. We wouldn't want an unbalanced view would we?
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lee

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #63 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:03pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:08am:

That argument applies equally to not changing the act as it was politicians who set the original standards.

i.e. politicians set the low wage standard that fair work apply.

But the independent board has the power to change the wage standard. That is what it was set up to do, to take those decisions out of the hands of government.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:08am:

Setting the standards expected in a function of government.

Not when they set up an independent board to carry out those functions.

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #64 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:14pm

lee wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:08am:

That argument applies equally to not changing the act as it was politicians who set the original standards.

i.e. politicians set the low wage standard that fair work apply.

But the independent board has the power to change the wage standard. That is what it was set up to do, to take those decisions out of the hands of government.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:08am:

Setting the standards expected in a function of government.

Not when they set up an independent board to carry out those functions.

Fairwork were never set up to have authority over their legislated act, no commission is.

The commission set the level of the low wage they cannot choose to set a living wage (there is no such thing in the act) it is outside of their scope doing this is a function of government in has to be enacted in parliament. Commissions do not enact legislation they function under it.

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lee

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #65 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 1:04pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:14pm:

Fairwork were never set up to have authority over their legislated act, no commission is.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:14pm:

Commissions do not enact legislation they function under it.

That is true. But penalty rates aren't under any legislation. The same as tax rates aren't under legislation. They are under regulation, it makes it easier to change them.

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #66 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 6:51pm

lee wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 1:04pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:14pm:

Fairwork were never set up to have authority over their legislated act, no commission is.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 12:14pm:

Commissions do not enact legislation they function under it.

That is true. But penalty rates aren't under any legislation. The same as tax rates aren't under legislation. They are under regulation, it makes it easier to change them.

You did vaguely notice that the Topic is about legislating a Living wage ?

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lee

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #67 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 8:01pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 6:51pm:

You did vaguely notice that the Topic is about legislating a Living wage ?

Yes. Doesn't mean it is going to be done.

As I said they tend to do payments by Regulation.

From the OP -

"University of Adelaide employment law expert Andrew Stewart said Labor could amend the Fair Work Act to require the commission to set a "living wage" but predicted Mr Shorten would likely take the approach of only "encouraging" it to do so.

He said Labor was unlikely to remove the requirement for the commission to also consider "the performance and competitiveness of the national economy, including productivity" when deciding by how much to lift pay packets."

That would mean no legislation if the FWC was only "encouraged" to do so.

And a completely different scenario to penalty rates. Wink

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #68 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:03pm

lee wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 8:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 6:51pm:

You did vaguely notice that the Topic is about legislating a Living wage ?

Yes. Doesn't mean it is going to be done.

As I said they tend to do payments by Regulation.

From the OP -

"University of Adelaide employment law expert Andrew Stewart said Labor could amend the Fair Work Act to require the commission to set a "living wage" but predicted Mr Shorten would likely take the approach of only "encouraging" it to do so.

He said Labor was unlikely to remove the requirement for the commission to also consider "the performance and competitiveness of the national economy, including productivity" when deciding by how much to lift pay packets."

That would mean no legislation if the FWC was only "encouraged" to do so.

And a completely different scenario to penalty rates. Wink

I would say you expert if full of it. Read the legislation the minimum wage is defined in it and mentioned all over the place. There is no such thing as a living wage and the commission has no reference to one, there is effectivly no such thing to the commission. They can not be encouraged to establish something which is not included in their responsibilities.

They have a legislated requirement to produce a minimum wage decision and no ability to modify this to be something else. Not even with a governments encouragement the proposition seems to be silly.

The provision look like this :

Quote:

135 Special provisions relating to modern award minimum wages

         (1) Modern award minimum wages cannot be varied under this Part except as follows:

                  (a) modern award minimum wages can be varied if the FWC is satisfied that the variation is justified by work value reasons (see subsections 156(3) and 157(2));

                  (b) modern award minimum wages can be varied under section 160 (which deals with variation to remove ambiguities or correct errors) or section 161 (which deals with variation on referral by the Australian Human Rights Commission).

Note 1:    The main power to vary modern award minimum wages is in annual wage reviews under Part 2‑6. Modern award minimum wages can also be set or revoked in annual wage reviews.

Note 2:    For the meanings of modern award minimum wages, and setting and varying such wages, see section 284.

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #69 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:05pm

Here is 282 as referenced. You will see that the minimum wage is entrenched in the legislation and that there is no provision to do anything else, it is not possible to be encouraged to create a living wage under this legislation just as it is not possible to not implement a minimum wage decision.

Quote:

Part 2‑6—Minimum wages

Division 1—Introduction

282 Guide to this Part

This Part provides for the FWC (constituted by an Expert Panel) to set and vary minimum wages for national system employees. For employees covered by modern awards, minimum wages are specified in the modern award. For award/agreement free employees, minimum wages are specified in the national minimum wage order.

Division 2 provides for the minimum wages objective. This requires the FWC to establish and maintain a safety net of fair minimum wages, taking into account certain social and economic factors.

Division 3 provides for the FWC (constituted by an Expert Panel) to conduct annual wage reviews. In an annual wage review, the FWC may set or vary minimum wages in modern awards, and must make a national minimum wage order. Minimum wages in modern awards can also be set, or varied (in limited circumstances), under Part 2‑3 (which deals with modern awards).

Division 4 provides for national minimum wage orders and requires employers to comply with them. The orders set the national minimum wage, as well as special national minimum wages for junior employees, employees to whom training arrangements apply and employees with a disability. The orders also set the casual loading for award/agreement free employees.

National minimum wages and special national minimum wages apply to award/agreement free employees. However, they are also relevant to other employees as follows:

(a) in setting or varying modern award minimum wages, the FWC must take the national minimum wage into account (see subsection 135(2) (in Part 2‑3) and subsection 285(3) (in this Part));

(b) for an employee who is not covered by a modern award and to whom an enterprise agreement applies, the employee’s base rate of pay under the agreement must not be less than the relevant national minimum wage or special national minimum wage (see subsection 206(3) (in Part 2‑4)).

For an employee who is covered by a modern award and to whom an enterprise agreement applies, the employee’s base rate of pay under the agreement must not be less than the base rate of pay that would have been payable to the employee if the award applied (see subsection 206(1) (in Part 2‑4)).

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #70 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:07pm

lee wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 8:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 6:51pm:

You did vaguely notice that the Topic is about legislating a Living wage ?

Yes. Doesn't mean it is going to be done.

As I said they tend to do payments by Regulation.

From the OP -

"University of Adelaide employment law expert Andrew Stewart said Labor could amend the Fair Work Act to require the commission to set a "living wage" but predicted Mr Shorten would likely take the approach of only "encouraging" it to do so.

He said Labor was unlikely to remove the requirement for the commission to also consider "the performance and competitiveness of the national economy, including productivity" when deciding by how much to lift pay packets."

That would mean no legislation if the FWC was only "encouraged" to do so.

And a completely different scenario to penalty rates. Wink

What they did to penalty rates was evil but also not covered by this topic.

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lee

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #71 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:42pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:05pm:

You will see that the minimum wage is entrenched in the legislation and that there is no provision to do anything else, it is not possible to be encouraged to create a living wage under this legislation just as it is not possible to not implement a minimum wage decision.

You might care to note that the legislation does not cover the actual payment made. That is made by regulation.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:05pm:

This Part provides for the FWC (constituted by an Expert Panel) to set and vary minimum wages for national system employees.

Did you read that bit? So wouldn't a living wage be the new "minimum wage"?

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #72 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 11:24pm

lee wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:42pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:05pm:

You will see that the minimum wage is entrenched in the legislation and that there is no provision to do anything else, it is not possible to be encouraged to create a living wage under this legislation just as it is not possible to not implement a minimum wage decision.

You might care to note that the legislation does not cover the actual payment made. That is made by regulation.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 9:05pm:

This Part provides for the FWC (constituted by an Expert Panel) to set and vary minimum wages for national system employees.

Did you read that bit? So wouldn't a living wage be the new "minimum wage"?

No the minimum wage is very specifically defined the minimum wage is not the same as the living wage as it is defined in a different manner to the minimum wage which is defined in the legislation.

There is all sorts of provisions meant to include different employment groups into the national minimum wage this is one of them, Setting and varying the minimum wage is the process that applies to the minimum wage yearly decisions. It sets a minimum wage not a living wage, they are different things

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lee

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Re: Labor Prepares To Legislate A Living Wage
Reply #73 - Mar 16^th, 2019 at 11:28pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 11:24pm:

No the minimum wage is very specifically defined the minimum wage is not the same as the living wage as it is defined in a different manner to the minimum wage which is defined in the legislation.

But definitions can be changed. Wink

Dnarever wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 11:24pm:

There is all sorts of provisions meant to include different employment groups into the national minimum wage this is one of them, Setting and varying the minimum wage is the process that applies to the minimum wage yearly decisions. It sets a minimum wage not a living wage, they are different things

But the living wage isn't yet legislated, how can you be sure they will be different?

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