Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2019 at 6:24pm:


Agree 100%. Which is why Indonesia routinely arrests and gaols them.

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 12:11pm:


The fact that after all this time you still are literally unable to mention anything else, even while you are huffing and puffing blue in the face insisting that you really do have more, just proves it.

What have you mentioned to support your argument that Indonesia is a shithole of oppression FD?

1. Ahok
2. Islam was wot done it
3. hey there are definitely other cases besides Ahok (I just won't mention any)

And in case it needs to be spelled out, 2 and 3 don't count. So it really does "boil down to" Ahok.

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 12:11pm:


Your explanation is nonsensical. You said that if they are not gaoled specifically for blasphemy then ipso facto, its an acknowledgement their version is correct. Yet as I already explained, they are gaoled specifically for what they say about Islam - eg people defending blasphemers should be assaulted - obviously consistent with their "version" of Islam.

So if people are literally gaoled for expressing their version of Islam, how is that anything other than a clear acknowledgement that their version is false - whether its under the auspices of blasphemy or something else?

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I mention it because we are still discussing it. If you keep telling the same lie, I will keep pointing out the same lie.

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What else is it? The ones who offer a similar interpretation of Islam to you get jailed for blasphemy. The extremists do not.

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The examples you gave sounded like anything but. In any case, they are still not accused of, charged with, or jailed for blasphemy.

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 6:01pm:


I meant you are still unable to offer anything further to your argument besides Ahok. You continue to not offer anything - even after all this time and while you are going blue in the face insisting that you are.

Hence your entire argument boils down to Ahok and nothing else.

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 6:01pm:


You are being completely inane. Blasphemy necessarily involves mocking and/or deliberately showing contempt for religion. Of course the Islamists will not do that, but it doesn't mean they have the correct version of Islam, or that the government agrees with them. The fact that they are routinely gaoled for literally expressing their version of Islam (eg blasphemers and their supporters should be assaulted) - is about the most clear demonstration that their version is not endorsed or even allowed by society.

Saying that your version of a religion is wrong doesn't necessarily have to involve charging you with blasphemy. Nor does charging others with blasphemy necessarily endorse your version.

Frank wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 7:23pm:


Aww come on Frank, don't be like that, it was a statement of the bleeding obvious. Of course the people muslims gaol for blasphemy are not murderers. I didn't think it needed to be spelled out.

Frank wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 9:42pm:




They cannot defeat us, with the use of truth, logic, reason.

The evidences against ISLAM are too apparent and widely known [now].

And the truth of those evidences are, really, undeniable.
.....[though moslems and other apologists for ISLAM,      will unceasingly, continue to obfuscate, and to lie, and deny,     offering those lies and denials, to anyone who will listen to them.]



They could defeat us through tyranny, and through government oppression, and through the oppressive use of government authority.

Police state.

We are only 'safe' while we continue to 'speak out', and while we are still 'permitted' to 'speak out'.

....but there is no guarantee that 'space' [within Western nations] will indefinitely remain.




Liberty.

It is a precious commodity.

But too often unappreciated,     by the 'mob'.



Maybe that, is what my God is doing.

Sifting.

Finding the 'jewels'.






Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.


Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



.



Malachi 3:13
Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
14  Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15  And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16  Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17  And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Frank wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 9:42pm:


Always absolutely never ever.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2019 at 8:25am:


That was yesterday FD, I've been asking for an argument for months now. And don't for a moment think that throw-away line magically makes for a coherent argument - it doesn't. There is certainly no justification to equate these rates with "routine" gaoling, as you did, nor is there any reason to assume this has any meaningful affect on free religious discussion throughout wider society. And nor does it change the fact that you were propping up Ahok as the be-all and end-all factor in why Indonesians must self-censor en masse, and making the entire country an oppressive shithole (and therefore no need to mention anything else).

In short, you are all over the shot. But some brownie points for actually making an effort to address the complete absense of a coherent argument - even if you come up way short.

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You're asking me to forgive you for being really really inanely obtuse. Thats quite a big ask FD. But of course I'll try - forgiveness is after all central to my religion.

When a muslim insists that a supporter of blasphemy should be assaulted, in any other context you wouldn't even blink before agreeing that this is a clear and direct expression of their version of Islam - and then you would milk it for all its worth in your Islam bashing. You would no doubt link it back to something Muhammad said, or a reference to chapter 9 in the Quran.

Now you want us to believe that maybe such an utterance isn't a representation of their religious beliefs. Mmmmkay FD.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2019 at 8:25am:


Tell me FD, can you think of anything more inane than an ardent Islam critic like yourself speculating that when an Islamist calls for blasphemers and their supporters to be assaulted - it may not be an expression of their version of Islam? I'm struggling to be honest.