Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 14 15 16 17 18 19
Send Topic Print
are we citizens or subjects? (Read 15429 times)
Spatchcock
Senior Member
****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 480
Gender: female
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #225 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 7:22am:
This is not some kind of parochialism. You can see the great wealth that our capitalist economy has produced. The theory reflects people's efforts to understand what they see, but will convince no-one by itself.


All I can see, without going in to economic theory is that:

In order to pay for goods and services, such as food, accommodation, utilities, leisure, you need to have a mutually agreed exchange for goods and services. We use money. In order to get money, you must provide a service or product and exchange that for money. Therefore you must work to survive.

This does not mean capitalism works, it means you need money to survive, and the only way to get money and survive is to work.

And it only works for some. The capitalist system is exploitative by nature. However without an incentive to work such as salary or an increased salary to make life more comfortable by being able to afford more luxury goods, people will not work. Therefore, again, people are exploited by being enticed with things such as luxury goods and social status and facebook bragging rights that are impossible to obtain without dedication and effort. So we have a false "social economy" that is fully geared by peer pressure that demands for social inclusion you get the best job you can and buy the most expensive car you can, so that you have a higher status in society which is determined by how you feel others view you.

Your entire social outlook is warped and manipulated to sustain the economy. You are exploited from birth. Work is a competition to succeed. It is not life. Your life is for the sustainment of the system. It is not for you. And if you don't sacrifice your life for the system, the system will chew you up and spit you out and you will be reliant on welfare and food vans.

So in order to have a comfortable, or even adequate life, you have to sacrifice your life for the economic system.

Further, the further you go, as in the more you earn and the more you buy, the more exploitative you are.

For example, you go out and buy a $300 pair of shoes. You wear them on your feet. A $80 pair of shoes would work the same. But you can demonstrate your social worth as a person by this extravagance. At the same time, the person making or selling your shoes in the store is working minimum wage to pay the rent, and not always on time.

So you are exploiting their entire life, their existence as a human, to wear expensive shoes and eat expensive food and drive expensive cars, to tell everyone how great this is when you go out once every six months and put photos on facebook, and that they need to have similar irrelevant items to succeed in life.

This is what you are doing to people. Making them feel worthless and forcing them to prove their worth as a human by participating in this charade.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 92279
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #226 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:02pm
 
Quote:
I doubt you'll try to show how liberal democracy delivers, but please feel free to do so.


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Quote:
Capitalism can only deliver improved health outcomes if you can show how a free market directly influenced this.


The effects of capitalism do not depend on my willingness to spoonfeed you the information you already know about.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47366
At my desk.
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #227 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:47pm
 
All you have to do is open your eyes Karnal.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jasin
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 46487
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #228 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 4:02pm
 
capitosinora wrote on Mar 9th, 2019 at 9:59am:
Cut the British crap of your British nationalistic closet Poms propaganda and tell the naked truth.
Is there any Anglo Australian patriot left in British colony of yours. Stop laying others and yourself.


Britan was and still is nothing but Pirate Empirial nation

In Britain literarly speaking sea piracy was legal.
During the centuries of Britain’s rise (1600-1800), a significant source of wealth was piracy – loot of merchant shipping, on high seas.
And not just legal, but also promoted British Crown and Governments. Actually British government together with full time employed pirates lotted wealth of other nations around the world stealing everything they could from European merchants to Greek Partenon treasures.
The British Crown gave permits to pirates for looting on high seas – through, what were known as, letters of marque. With two conditions – English ships would not be attacked and the State would get a part of the loot.

One of the earliest ‘success stories’ was Pirate John Hawkins. So successful was Pirate Hawkins, that he became Admiral ‘Sir’ John Hawkins. Pirates like Admiral ‘Sir’ John Hawkins made money on slave trade and piracy. This model of ‘voyages’, became the norm for the next 200 years. With the encouragement and sanction of the English State, high seas piracy and African slavery combination became the national industry in Britain. Trafficking African slaves one way, piracy the rest of the time.
Descendants of Admiral ‘Sir’ John Hawkins, recently ‘apologized’ to Africans for the crimes of their ancestor – Admiral ‘Sir’ John Hawkins.


El Draque

Admiral Hawkin’s more famous nephew, was ‘Sir’ Francis Drake. El Draque, The Dragon, to the Spanish.
Drake’s voyage in the ship Golden Hind is an event in British economic history. His attack on the Spanish ship, Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion, nicknamed ‘Cacafuego’ (meaning Shitfire!) captured off Ecuador on March 1, 1579 yielded much loot. It took six days to transfer the loot from the Spanish ship to the British.
In this capture, Drake seized 80 pounds of gold and 26 tons of silver. Queen Elizabeth, apart from knighting him, was also a financial partner in these criminal enterprises.






Not as bad as your USA paying DICTATORS under the table via your corrupt CIA to enfeeble their own nations, while YOUR Media propaganderises 'How evil they are and how much the USA is against them' in utter B/S!  Roll Eyes
Pinochet to Saddam Hussein of whom did your dirty work against Khomeini's Iran, but had to try and take Kuwait because your beloved 'Privatised' Capitalistic FAKE Political nation wouldn't cough up the dirty money.

The WORLD respects Britain as the 'Cross' of Political Truth that has brought English as the International Language (unless you want the Yo Bro mudda jive crap out of the USA  Roll Eyes), to the World as a 'Gift' to be shared, not owned.

USA couldn't even get away with attacking Australia because EVERY NATION would turn on the USA!  Tongue

USA is the Criminal  Wink
Back to top
 

AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 92279
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #229 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:47pm:
All you have to do is open your eyes Karnal.


What sound does a jellyfish make?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 92279
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #230 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:29pm
 
Spatchcock wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:57pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 7:22am:
This is not some kind of parochialism. You can see the great wealth that our capitalist economy has produced. The theory reflects people's efforts to understand what they see, but will convince no-one by itself.


All I can see, without going in to economic theory is that:

In order to pay for goods and services, such as food, accommodation, utilities, leisure, you need to have a mutually agreed exchange for goods and services. We use money. In order to get money, you must provide a service or product and exchange that for money. Therefore you must work to survive.

This does not mean capitalism works, it means you need money to survive, and the only way to get money and survive is to work.

And it only works for some. The capitalist system is exploitative by nature. However without an incentive to work such as salary or an increased salary to make life more comfortable by being able to afford more luxury goods, people will not work. Therefore, again, people are exploited by being enticed with things such as luxury goods and social status and facebook bragging rights that are impossible to obtain without dedication and effort. So we have a false "social economy" that is fully geared by peer pressure that demands for social inclusion you get the best job you can and buy the most expensive car you can, so that you have a higher status in society which is determined by how you feel others view you.

Your entire social outlook is warped and manipulated to sustain the economy. You are exploited from birth. Work is a competition to succeed. It is not life. Your life is for the sustainment of the system. It is not for you. And if you don't sacrifice your life for the system, the system will chew you up and spit you out and you will be reliant on welfare and food vans.

So in order to have a comfortable, or even adequate life, you have to sacrifice your life for the economic system.

Further, the further you go, as in the more you earn and the more you buy, the more exploitative you are.

For example, you go out and buy a $300 pair of shoes. You wear them on your feet. A $80 pair of shoes would work the same. But you can demonstrate your social worth as a person by this extravagance. At the same time, the person making or selling your shoes in the store is working minimum wage to pay the rent, and not always on time.

So you are exploiting their entire life, their existence as a human, to wear expensive shoes and eat expensive food and drive expensive cars, to tell everyone how great this is when you go out once every six months and put photos on facebook, and that they need to have similar irrelevant items to succeed in life.

This is what you are doing to people. Making them feel worthless and forcing them to prove their worth as a human by participating in this charade.


Sure, Spatchcock, but as you rightly point out, capitalism is a system. Being a good exploiter is hardly a moral flaw within capitalism, it's rewarded.

Zuckerberg, for example, didn't start Facebook as a way to sell more stuff. Originally, he didn't want ads at all. But he got investment to grow, and companies joined up, and before long, Facebook became successful because it integrated into the system. Within capitalism, CEOs must make decisions based on profit.

Zuckerberg did not support the work of Cambridge Analytica, but Facebook quietly granted it access to users' data. I doubt Murdoch supports South Park, but it's screened on Fox.

It is possible to exploit the system, but not if you don't turn a profit in the long run.

News Ltd, for example, loses money on its print circulation, particularly its conservative broadsheets. The Australian costs News millions each year. These losses are made up by the TV arm of the company, which bail out the broadsheets. This is only possible with News Ltd's share structure, which gives Murdoch the majority vote. Otherwise, the board would get rid of unprofitable ventures like the Australian.

Murdoch, of course, uses print as a strategy. He uses it to get his choice of political candidate elected. Beholden to Murdoch, leaders then favour him in media policy. Fox News in the US does the same. Murdoch can't do this with Sky in Britain or Australia because the electronic media there is regulated. Print isn't. Murdoch is happy to make losses on the broadsheets to get politicians on side. This is how News works in a nutshell. It's a strategy designed to achieve a media monopoly.

This demonstrates the role of the media within capitalism. It must support capitalism itself. Shareholders simply won't allow messages that sabotage their investments. The same is true of social media, which only agreed to self-regulate recently when it was shown that they were in danger of becoming a propaganda tool for extremists. 

Extremists are able to exploit social media by turning a profit. The more extreme the message, the more views it generates. There are a number of companies re-spinning news to make it fit a far-right or far-left agenda. Some are even run by the same company. They then target their respective audience to generate ad revenue.

This is capitalism in action - generating any old propaganda to reach a market. Often, those writing the stories are politically indifferent. Even extremism is exploited within capitalism.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #231 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 4:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Auggie are you suggesting that freedom cannot flourish under slavery?


Is that supposed to be a rhetorical question?
Back to top
 

The Progressive President
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 92279
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #232 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:36pm
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 4:08pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Auggie are you suggesting that freedom cannot flourish under slavery?


Is that supposed to be a rhetorical question?


Sometimes a question is just a question, Auggie.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #233 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:41am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2019 at 6:57pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:27pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:14pm:
And it is a blatant lie that the system falls apart if workers have true bargaining power. That is exactly what they have here in Australia, and the system works fine. In fact, they have even more options thanks to the government, such as going on the dole.


Australian manufacturing is being off-shored FD. Its a direct consequence of Australian labourers getting more bargaining power. Haven't you noticed?


The system is not falling apart Gandalf. Haven't you noticed?

Would you prefer the Bangladeshis starved so you wouldn't have to get all hysterical about big companies offering them a choice between starvation and a job?


In reality, workers having true bargaining power causes capitalists to look elsewhere for workers who don't have bargaining power - in our case, south and south east asia. Or in other words, capitalists demonstrably prefer to hire people with the least rights and least ability to demand rights as possible.

What you fail to take into consideration here is that capitalism only prevails in this case because there is still a pool of miserable workers with no bargaining power for them to exploit hire, and that hiring these sorts of workers is their preference. What demonstrably doesn't happen, is the free-marketer's fantasy of increased worker's rights and conditions = more productive and efficient workers = more desirable and sought after by the capitalists. No, clearly the attitude of the capitalists towards these uppity workers with anything resembling bargaining power is to give them the big middle finger and look elsewhere.

So yes, of course the system won't collapse while ever the capitalists still have an available pool of workers without bargaining power. And when this available pool transcends national borders, it just means the system becomes global. So invariably the (capitalist) population of Australia still exist and contribute to the capitalist economy - which now consists of unskilled workers overseas - rather than in Australia. So fortunately the Holden workers, or the factory workers at the fridge factory in Orange can either re-skill and find a new career, or (more likely) go on the dole. They won't be left to starve. Both these options are available to them thanks to living in a prosperous country whose economy is inextricably linked to a global capitalist system that still relies on exploiting workers (just not in this country). And yet options like government sponsored re-skilling programs and unemployment benefits are not features of the capitalist system, but symptoms of one of its failings. If it was left to "the market", these abandoned workers would be left to fend for themselves. After all, capitalism doesn't need them - they are simply replaced by third world workers. So its left to the government to fill the vacuum and pick up the pieces.

But the real question you need to ask yourself is, if and when there are no workers left who can be exploited by the capitalists because they all have bargaining power - can the capitalist sytem survive then? Though I suspect the answer by then will be robots.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #234 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:57am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2019 at 9:16pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 9th, 2019 at 9:10pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2019 at 6:57pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:27pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:14pm:
And it is a blatant lie that the system falls apart if workers have true bargaining power. That is exactly what they have here in Australia, and the system works fine. In fact, they have even more options thanks to the government, such as going on the dole.


Australian manufacturing is being off-shored FD. Its a direct consequence of Australian labourers getting more bargaining power. Haven't you noticed?


The system is not falling apart Gandalf. Haven't you noticed?

Would you prefer the Bangladeshis starved so you wouldn't have to get all hysterical about big companies offering them a choice between starvation and a job?


The choice that you propose, FD, tells me that the system in indeed falling apart.

You?


If I had the choice, I would choose the choice between starvation and working over the socialists' noble death.


That is not any sort of argument in defence of capitalism FD.

You may as well argue we should bring back slavery - if all you are interested in is avoiding starving to death.

And yes I would prefer the Bangladeshi garment workers are able to get slave-like work if it prevents them starving. And I would definitely continue to do my part to exploit them by buying my target shirts - so that at least something ends up in the meagre pockets of the exploited worker - as opposed to, you know, dying.

But surely the point is that this intolerable choice is the only one that exists for these people in the first place. Holding up a virtual slave and gleefully proclaiming that "capitalism prevents these people starving to death" is not any sort of commendation for capitalism - it is a damning indictment of it.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47366
At my desk.
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #235 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 1:26pm
 
Quote:
What you fail to take into consideration here is that capitalism only prevails in this case because there is still a pool of miserable workers with no bargaining power for them to exploit hire, and that hiring these sorts of workers is their preference. What demonstrably doesn't happen, is the free-marketer's fantasy of increased worker's rights and conditions = more productive and efficient workers = more desirable and sought after by the capitalists.


You couldn't be more wrong Gandalf. You are swallowing the communist pamphlet without making the slightest effort to link it back to reality, or to make it logically consistent. The process you describe is what lifted millions of Chinese out of poverty just a generation after they were literally starving to death. That Chinese middle class is now buying up our iron ore, beef etc and keeping us out of recession. Similar things happened in other south east asian countries. A lot of the companies are now looking for cheaper labour elsewhere because the Chinese workers cost too much. If we run out of cheap labour, it literally means that capitalism has lifted the poorest people out of poverty.

What exactly is your problem with this? You still have not explained what your preferred alternative is. As far as I can tell you actually want the people of Bangladesh to starve so they do not get "taken advantage of".

Quote:
But the real question you need to ask yourself is, if and when there are no workers left who can be exploited by the capitalists because they all have bargaining power - can the capitalist sytem survive then? Though I suspect the answer by then will be robots.


Of course it will not fail. This is idiotic communist fantasy, with no basis in reality other than a vain hope by communists that reality will some day validate their idiocy. With or without robots, with or without cheap foreign labour, a free market in human labour labour can make the most of the situation, and benefit both the poor and the rich far more than the alternative you are too scared to even acknowledge.

You once said you were a socialist, and when I asked what kind, it turned out you were the capitalist kind. I guess it's like being a peace loving Muslim. When you strip away the hubris, you stand for nothing, and can only offer long-discredited criticisms that you yourself also run away from, if you can be pinned down to actually saying something of substance.

So how about instead of offering us more of this endless whine, you tell us what you actually stand for?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #236 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 3:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
As far as I can tell you actually want the people of Bangladesh to starve so they do not get "taken advantage of".


I literally said in my last post I would prefer they were "taken advantage of" rather than let them starve. So please, enough with the histrionics.

The point is, if the best capitalism can offer is "not starving", then its hardly a great selling point for it is it? You may as well campaign to bring back slavery, which would arguably give them even better survival prospects (eg guaranteed protection and shelter). Of course capitalism generates great wealth and opportunity, but mostly for the capitalist classes. Really the only way the masses and the working classes can get a share of this and thus lift them out of poverty, is through organized labour and government intervention - two things that capitalism specifically detests and fights tooth and nail against.

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
Of course it will not fail.


It will not fail thanks to the guarantee that governments will not let it fail. The most spectacular demonstration of this was in 2008 with the "too big to fail" government bailouts of US financial corporations. We even saw it in Australia when Rudd guaranteed all bank deposits. The ability for capitalism to self destruct was on display for all to see during the early to mid 2000s throughout the west - but especially in America. What would have happened if the government didn't come to the rescue in 2008? One can only speculate, but its likely the system would have experienced a far greater shock than it did - mostly impacting the vulnerable working class of course.

And so here we have the fundamental paradox with the whole system: a system that is inherently anti-government intervention, yet literally relies on government intervention to save it from itself.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47366
At my desk.
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #237 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 7:04pm
 
Quote:
I literally said in my last post I would prefer they were "taken advantage of" rather than let them starve. So please, enough with the histrionics.


So you actually support the very thing you have been whining about?

Quote:
The point is, if the best capitalism can offer is "not starving"


If? Have you not figured this out yet Gandalf?

Quote:
It will not fail thanks to the guarantee that governments will not let it fail. The most spectacular demonstration of this was in 2008 with the "too big to fail" government bailouts of US financial corporations.


The failure of a corporation is not a failure of capitalism, and too big to fail does not imply, to any rational person, the failure of capitalism.

Quote:
And so here we have the fundamental paradox with the whole system: a system that is inherently anti-government intervention, yet literally relies on government intervention to save it from itself.


No it does not. The difference between the visions of Keynes and Hayek is largely one of stability rather than lang term growth. And before you get hysterical, instability does not mean failure. You are mistaking an argument over the detail of macroeconomics for the functionality of capitalism. Are you going to go through every economics argument from google that you can misunderstand and hold it up as a failure of capitalism?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 92279
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #238 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 8:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
Quote:
What you fail to take into consideration here is that capitalism only prevails in this case because there is still a pool of miserable workers with no bargaining power for them to exploit hire, and that hiring these sorts of workers is their preference. What demonstrably doesn't happen, is the free-marketer's fantasy of increased worker's rights and conditions = more productive and efficient workers = more desirable and sought after by the capitalists.


You couldn't be more wrong Gandalf. You are swallowing the communist pamphlet without making the slightest effort to link it back to reality, or to make it logically consistent. The process you describe is what lifted millions of Chinese out of poverty just a generation after they were literally starving to death. That Chinese middle class is now buying up our iron ore, beef etc and keeping us out of recession. Similar things happened in other south east asian countries. A lot of the companies are now looking for cheaper labour elsewhere because the Chinese workers cost too much. If we run out of cheap labour, it literally means that capitalism has lifted the poorest people out of poverty.

What exactly is your problem with this? You still have not explained what your preferred alternative is. As far as I can tell you actually want the people of Bangladesh to starve so they do not get "taken advantage of".

Quote:
But the real question you need to ask yourself is, if and when there are no workers left who can be exploited by the capitalists because they all have bargaining power - can the capitalist sytem survive then? Though I suspect the answer by then will be robots.


Of course it will not fail. This is idiotic communist fantasy, with no basis in reality other than a vain hope by communists that reality will some day validate their idiocy. With or without robots, with or without cheap foreign labour, a free market in human labour labour can make the most of the situation, and benefit both the poor and the rich far more than the alternative you are too scared to even acknowledge.

You once said you were a socialist, and when I asked what kind, it turned out you were the capitalist kind. I guess it's like being a peace loving Muslim. When you strip away the hubris, you stand for nothing, and can only offer long-discredited criticisms that you yourself also run away from, if you can be pinned down to actually saying something of substance.

So how about instead of offering us more of this endless whine, you tell us what you actually stand for?


Actually, FD, forgive me, but I'm a little curious. What do you stand for?

After 2007, I mean.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #239 - Mar 13th, 2019 at 11:03am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 7:04pm:
f? Have you not figured this out yet Gandalf?


Its your argument I haven't figured out FD - as in whenever someone points out the appalling conditions of third world labourers in a capitalist system, your only retort is to rhetorically ask 'would you prefer they starve'. You're not exactly presenting anything better than "not starving" that capitalism can offer these people. I suspect thats because you understand the fundamental point that its never capitalism per se that "lifts people out of poverty" - but specific intervention by the government and organization of labour, two things that the capitalists detest and fight tooth and nail against.

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 7:04pm:
The failure of a corporation is not a failure of capitalism, and too big to fail does not imply, to any rational person, the failure of capitalism.


It wasn't "a" corporation FD, it was a whole bunch of them, and consisted the backbone of the
entire US financial sector. It was a systemic rot culminating from a toxic culture amongst the entire capitalist class - a culture that was arguably inevitable in a capitalist system that becomes more and more deregulated and unaccountable. You seem to not appreciate just how dire the situation was in 2008 FD, and it was saved in large part by the feds pumping trillions to prop up these rotten institutions. Of course you could argue that the government should have simply let those corporations fail, and the market would have corrected itself (which many free-marketeers were advocating) - survival of the fittest. But there is no telling the devastation this would have caused to great swathes of the working, as well as the middle class masses. And if you're telling me that this sort of periodic corrective devastation is inherent in the system, and therefore expected and 'normal', then its not a great selling point for capitalism.

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 7:04pm:
instability does not mean failure


Depends on your perspective. If you are one of the poor working class sods being exploited by the capitalist system, what you euphemistically term "instability" is likely to mean you can no longer afford to buy food to keep you alive, or you lose your home, or you get buried alive by that unapproved appartment block that "the system" deemed unworthy to maintain. But hey, as long as the capitalists themselves can take their ill-gotten bonuses, cut their losses and move on to the next 'make money out of thin air' project - the system will be fine.

The system won't "fail" in these situations, but humanity will.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 16 17 18 19
Send Topic Print