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are we citizens or subjects? (Read 15421 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #195 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:14pm:
And it is a blatant lie that the system falls apart if workers have true bargaining power. That is exactly what they have here in Australia, and the system works fine. In fact, they have even more options thanks to the government, such as going on the dole.


Australian manufacturing is being off-shored FD. Its a direct consequence of Australian labourers getting more bargaining power. Haven't you noticed?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Jasin
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #196 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:29pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:22pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
Why hasn't worker shareholding spread under capitalism? This would be the solution, wouldn't it?


presumably because no capitalist system to date has given workers that much bargaining power. Capitalists will only provide to their workers what they absolutely have to, and if they can get away with less, they will do that. FD's argument that happy and well looked after workers are motivated, and therefore good for capitalists, is easily refuted by pointing out that workers have never got anything resembling 'adequate' pay and conditions by the magic arm of the free market - only through government intervention and unions.

My take is that it shouldn't be assumed that happy motivated workers are necessarily more cost-effective for capitalists than slaves or virtual slaves - especially the more menial the labour becomes. Just look at somewhere like Australia - manufacturers who wanted to operate in Australia would be forced to provide a fairly generous minimum wage, minimum conditions, and all sorts of rights for their workers. According to free market doctrine, that would make awesome workers who are massively efficient and productive for the company right? Yeah, nah, it doesn't work like that. Manufacturers now just reject such "happy and motivated" workers, and instead set up base in the most deregulated third world shitholes where workers have as few rights as possible.

It would be interesting if you could somehow do a measurable productivity cost benefit analysis using workers who are well treated/paid and demonstrably motivated - compared to slaves (or close to it). I wouldn't be so sure that its just a given that the motivated worker is better.

In any case, there seems to be little doubt which labour is the more desirable in the minds of the capitalists themselves.

Well said.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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freediver
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #197 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:31pm
 
Plenty of companies do worker shareholding. But for the most part people prefer to be paid with money and then choose for themselves what to do with it. It goes against one of the most basic bits of investment advice - diversify.

That free people do not choose what you think they should is not an indictment on capitalism, just your petty urges to be a control freak.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #198 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:14pm:
No Gandalf, that is your (or some random socialists) strawman of pro-capitalist arguments. Capitalists will tell you that you have to actually work for these things.


you missed my last words "for anyone who works hard".

And you seem to be drinking the same koolaid
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Jasin
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #199 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:37pm
 
Germany just scored against Brazil!
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #200 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
That free people do not choose what you think they should is not an indictment on capitalism, just your petty urges to be a control freak.


How is a garment worker in Bangladesh "free" when her choices are a) for her and her family to starve to death and b) work at unregulated exploitative shithole a, b or c that will pay you no more than you need to stay alive?

I note you mentioned previously non-slaves even have the option to travel to work. Wow, lucky them! Hey, half starving garment worker with no savings and the sole income for your whole family - you are free to take that non-existent car of yours and spend half your day driving yourself God-knows how many miles on unsealed dangerous roads- just so you can find a job just as crappy as the ones available in your village!
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Jasin
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #201 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:48pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:43pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
That free people do not choose what you think they should is not an indictment on capitalism, just your petty urges to be a control freak.


How is a garment worker in Bangladesh "free" when her choices are a) for her and her family to starve to death and b) work at unregulated exploitative shithole a, b or c that will pay you no more than you need to stay alive?

I note you mentioned previously non-slaves even have the option to travel to work. Wow, lucky them! Hey, half starving garment worker with no savings and the sole income for your whole family - you are free to take that non-existent car of yours and spend half your day driving yourself God-knows how many miles on unsealed dangerous roads- just so you can find a job just as crappy as the ones available in your village!



Mind you Gandalf, I must 'politely' say that the vast 'majority' of the problems for these people who are living much like a slave for a penny, etc are their own worst problem with them having MORE KIDS THAN THEY CAN AFFORD AND THUS MAKING IT EVEN HARDER TO 'AFFORD' A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE IN THE LONG RUN.

Yep - their 'over-population' is what makes them earn, just a penny for a month. They reap what they sow.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #202 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 8:29pm
 
the kids are needed to perform all the domestic duties mum can't do because she's working 16 hours 7 days a week - to provide the entire family 1 meal a day.

There's also the issue of no access to contraception as well as women's disempowerment and lack of education - you know all the things that go hand in hand with a cycle of poverty.

But hey, if only they were willing to work hard, prosperity would magically drop out of the sky for them innit  Tongue
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Jasin
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #203 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 8:33pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 8:29pm:
the kids are needed to perform all the domestic duties mum can't do because she's working 16 hours 7 days a week - to provide the entire family 1 meal a day.

There's also the issue of no access to contraception as well as women's disempowerment and lack of education - you know all the things that go hand in hand with a cycle of poverty.

But hey, if only they were willing to work hard, prosperity would magically drop out of the sky for them innit  Tongue

I'll stop you right there before reading the rest.

Mum wouldn't have to work like that if she had 1 kid or even NO KIDS.
If you can't afford kids - why have em.
Stupid 'over-breeders' deserve every hardship they throw upon themselves, but try to blame rich people/nations for.
No wonder they work for peanuts and get exploited by Capitalists - because they have left themselves 'NO OPTION' to do otherwise.
Roll Eyes
Now I'll read the rest of your post.  Cheesy
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Jasin
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #204 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 8:36pm
 
Now that I have read the rest.
Are you saying they are 'primitive manimals' that can't think for themselves and can't discipline themselves not to pump out 5+ kids because they just can't 'help themselves'?  Roll Eyes

Only sickos have kids just to watch them die from starvation within a year or few. Angry

But hey, don't worry - everyone else will pay for them, right?  Huh
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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freediver
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #205 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:22pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:43pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
That free people do not choose what you think they should is not an indictment on capitalism, just your petty urges to be a control freak.


How is a garment worker in Bangladesh "free" when her choices are a) for her and her family to starve to death and b) work at unregulated exploitative shithole a, b or c that will pay you no more than you need to stay alive?

I note you mentioned previously non-slaves even have the option to travel to work. Wow, lucky them! Hey, half starving garment worker with no savings and the sole income for your whole family - you are free to take that non-existent car of yours and spend half your day driving yourself God-knows how many miles on unsealed dangerous roads- just so you can find a job just as crappy as the ones available in your village!


Again Gandalf, no-one said that capitalism makes you "free" to stroll around in your opium white bathrobe eating strawberries and cream. It is not a substitute for reality. But you seem to demand it is. Not starving is actually a bloody good start compared to most of human history. You take the lofty heights that capitalism has brought you, that you now take for granted, and somehow turn it around into a criticism. The Bangladeshis can one day have what you have also, so long as they do not take your BS seriously.
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #206 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:22pm:
Again Gandalf, no-one said that capitalism makes you "free" to stroll around in your opium white bathrobe eating strawberries and cream.


Thats very true FD. Not sure how that relates to the Bangladeshi garment worker in my example though. Its true that they are always "free" to work at exploitative underpaying shithole B instead of exploitative underpaying shithole A to avoid starving to death - is that the freedom you were referring to? I'm sure that must be very liberating for them.

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:22pm:
Not starving is actually a bloody good start compared to most of human history.


Not starving is also what slaves managed to do too FD. So that must count as one of the great strives in human history right?

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:22pm:
You take the lofty heights that capitalism has brought you, that you now take for granted, and somehow turn it around into a criticism.


Its a bit like pointing at the aristocrat who spent his life leeching off the underprivileged, now looking down upon all the poor wretches wallowing under his domain, and finally realising "hmmm, you know what, this isn't actually fair"... and telling me that this change of heart is the selfish part. Its true, I should have done something about it by now - think of all those target shirts I wear made by slaves in Bangladesh...
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #207 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:44pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 3:23pm:
karnal:
Quote:
Unions and organised labour forces are antithetical to capitalism. Within capitalism, profits must be distributed among shareholders, not workers. If not, investors will simply invest their money elsewhere. There is no incentive, for example, for clothing manufacturers to make clothes in Australia, a country with sweatshop legislation and a minimum wage. No worries, investors simply go to Bangladesh, where unions are stamped out at the source.


Here's a thought: if workers had actual bargaining power, why would they remain mere employees? Why wouldn't they bargain themselves into becoming shareholders, and taking a fair share of the profits of the produce they themselves produced? Or at the very least, wages would go through the roof, causing mass inflation and making the entire economy a basket case. Obviously if this happened the whole system would fall down.

So like I said, capitalism depends on the workers not having bargaining power.


This is a good question. Why hasn't worker shareholding spread under capitalism? This would be the solution, wouldn't it?

Workers would be motivated to increase productivity, right? They would be free, as FD says, to negotiate pay and conditions at the board level. Corporations would have access to capital through worker savings.

If what FD says is right, why hasn't the invisible hand of the marketplace delivered this solution?

greed.


Does greed facilitate slave plantations too, Homo?

I'm curious.
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #208 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:09pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 1:22pm:
The British were out of North America in 1805, FD. They'd put their eggs in India, with a local population prepared to work hard for peanuts. What the Napoleonic wars did was compel England to create a formidable naval force, and one they would use to expand the colonies even further.

Indians could never get over why England chose to ignore Indian cotton manufacturing and make it in England. This saw the end of Indian cloth manufacturing, a huge industry back then. India had cheap labour. It had cotton. Why did England go to all the trouble of sending slaves to the Americas to pick cotton to send back to Britain, and in so doing, create an industrial nightmare?

Engels described it in the Conditions of the Working Class in England in 1845. Orwell wrote the Road to Wigan Pier in 1937 - almost a hundred years later. The conditions of British workers had't changed. They were worse than Indian workers at the time. Shorter average lifespan, high infant mortality, the lot.

Fast forward a hundred and eighty years and look at the conditions of workers in Bangladesh. Perfectly capitalist, all the big global chains get their clothes made there. Like British workers during the industrial revolution, many are locked in for their shifts, which can be extended to get a contract done. No overtime, no freedom to leave and go home. Capitalism has literally created these conditions, just as it created the conditions Engels and Orwell described in their times.

Today, in China, they're going a step further - no need to turn a workforce into robots, create robots to do the work. I'm unsure where this will take us, just as I'm unsure where self-driving cars and trucks will leave those employed as drivers. My hope is they get jobs in the service industry, but as the US shows, job creation there is largely in fast-food, with an average income of $18000 a year.

None of this has created the freedom you describe. We've witnessed better pay and conditions over the years (in the developed world), but this has nothing to do with capitalism. As G has already said, this is the work of governments and unions.

The transition to service economies in the developed world is pivotal, but all we've done is outsource our working class to developing countries. Our own proletariat has had government assistance, but has been left by the free market to fend for itself.

Unions and organised labour forces are antithetical to capitalism. Within capitalism, profits must be distributed among shareholders, not workers. If not, investors will simply invest their money elsewhere. There is no incentive, for example, for clothing manufacturers to make clothes in Australia, a country with sweatshop legislation and a minimum wage. No worries, investors simply go to Bangladesh, where unions are stamped out at the source.

This is free-trade liberalism. The freedom you describe applies to shareholders, not workers. This is how capitalism works. To make profit and attract investors, you must either exploit a slave class of workers or develop robots to do the job instead.


Why are workers not free? If they are not free, there is your problem.

Can you suggest something better for Bangladesh?


Any chance you could explain what you mean?

Cheers.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: are we citizens or subjects?
Reply #209 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:22pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:43pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
That free people do not choose what you think they should is not an indictment on capitalism, just your petty urges to be a control freak.


How is a garment worker in Bangladesh "free" when her choices are a) for her and her family to starve to death and b) work at unregulated exploitative shithole a, b or c that will pay you no more than you need to stay alive?

I note you mentioned previously non-slaves even have the option to travel to work. Wow, lucky them! Hey, half starving garment worker with no savings and the sole income for your whole family - you are free to take that non-existent car of yours and spend half your day driving yourself God-knows how many miles on unsealed dangerous roads- just so you can find a job just as crappy as the ones available in your village!


Again Gandalf, no-one said that capitalism makes you "free" to stroll around in your opium white bathrobe eating strawberries and cream. It is not a substitute for reality. But you seem to demand it is. Not starving is actually a bloody good start compared to most of human history. You take the lofty heights that capitalism has brought you, that you now take for granted, and somehow turn it around into a criticism. The Bangladeshis can one day have what you have also, so long as they do not take your BS seriously.


Actually, all the famines I can think of, going back to the Irish potato famine, were caused by a colonial power or aristocracy selling off the available food and land.

Not starving is not a very good start, dear. Even slaves got fed.

Bangladeshis will only have what we have if they're allowed to form unions.

You?
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