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George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual (Read 29112 times)
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #465 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:58am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:55am:
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.


Who said that?

I'm curious.

I, for one, have never said that Pell is innocent.

Let's just stick to the facts, shall we?




So what in the bugger is all this other poo. He's guilty but oh my god I will continue to question all aspects of the trial in the sense he's innocent.
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #466 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 12:00pm
 
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:58am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:55am:
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.


Who said that?

I'm curious.

I, for one, have never said that Pell is innocent.

Let's just stick to the facts, shall we?




So what in the bugger is all this other poo. He's guilty but oh my god I will continue to question all aspects of the trial in the sense he's innocent.


No.

I remain open-minded and objective.

Other people might be saying he's innocent, but I certainly haven't.

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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #467 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 12:19pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:55am:
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.


Who said that?

I'm curious.

I, for one, have never said that Pell is innocent.

Let's just stick to the facts, shall we?





I am, the fact is he's been found guiltyu in a court. Done.
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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)
 
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #468 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 12:27pm
 
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 12:19pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:55am:
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.


Who said that?

I'm curious.

I, for one, have never said that Pell is innocent.

Let's just stick to the facts, shall we?





I am, the fact is he's been found guiltyu in a court. Done.


Indeed.

Nobody has denied that fact.

Another fact: the legal process isn't over.

Another fact: thousands of innocent people have been convicted by juries.
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #469 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 1:07pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:51am:
"Proof of crime at trial is a complex and difficult process. Absolute certainty is not achievable, and it is not demanded. Inevitably, innocent defendants are convicted. In Australia these errors only come to light occasionally, but there is reason to believe that many wrongful convictions remain hidden from view. Analyses of DNA exonerations in the US suggest that the wrongful conviction rate is three per cent or higher. While the Australian criminal justice system may claim superiority in certain respects, there is no reason to believe the error rate in Australia would be radically lower.

"An individual wrongful conviction is a searing injustice. The fact that only a very small proportion of wrongful convictions are corrected is a grave social problem. However, the problem is not straightforward. There are good reasons to view the trial verdict as final, and to constrain the opportunities for review at the appeal and post-appeal stages. To reduce the finality of conviction at trial would potentially diminish the jury’s role, upset the efficient distribution of work within the judicial hierarchy, and make it more difficult for victims to achieve closure.

"Nevertheless, it is becoming increasingly clear that wrongful convictions occur at a higher rate than previously thought, and that finality is being pursued at too great a cost. It appears likely that there are dozens of innocent defendants convicted in NSW each year who fail on appeal, and for whom the current post-appeal avenues offer no genuine hope of correcting the injustice. And there is no excuse for leaving this problem unaddressed. There is an effective post-appeal mechanism available which can operate without inordinate impact on finality. NSW should adopt a CCRC based on the English model. The English Commission greatly increased the rate of correction of wrongful convictions. It is viewed by bodies such as the Court of Appeal, Criminal Division and the Law Commission as an essential part of the English criminal justice infrastructure. And the British government, even in the current straitened economic environment, considers that the Commission provides society with good value for money. To not, at least, give serious consideration to this option would be a severe policy failing."


Wrongful Convictions, Appeals, and the Finality Principle: The Need for a Criminal Cases Review Commission" [2014] UNSWLawJl 12; (2014) 37(1) UNSW Law Journal 270



Good to see some reading my Australia's Wrongfully Convicted site.... they're starting to get the idea... unfortunately given the high rate of outright prejudice against defendants and preference for prosecution in the 'lower courts', and the severe restrictions on appeals, many are just rubber-stamped into conviction.

Then when governments install 'laws' that do not abide by the Rule of Law, with a zero standard of proof, or based on 'feelings'.... the gate is wide open....
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #470 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 1:08pm
 
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.


Not - but when one witness says one thing, and twenty say another.... it leaves a sense of unease....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #471 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 1:09pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:55am:
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.


Who said that?

I'm curious.

I, for one, have never said that Pell is innocent.

Let's just stick to the facts, shall we?



He could be guilty or innocent - the point is that to be legally guilty he has to be proven guilty beyond ANY reasonable doubt...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #472 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 1:12pm
 
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:58am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:55am:
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.


Who said that?

I'm curious.

I, for one, have never said that Pell is innocent.

Let's just stick to the facts, shall we?




So what in the bugger is all this other poo. He's guilty but oh my god I will continue to question all aspects of the trial in the sense he's innocent.


Hope you don't say that at jury selection - NEXT!

He's been found guilty - there are doubts about the handling of the case... twenty to one witnesses .... that raises doubt in anyone's mind about the one .... especially in a 'he said'/'he said' situation.  there is primary evidence - e.g. what a person says - then there is a requirement for corroboration....unfortunately our 'courts' most often convict on primary evidence without corroboration and often  ignore ex-culpatory corroboration from the defence.

I suspect his appeal will win.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #473 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 1:12pm
 
Speaking of Pell ...

Church knew Pell was at centre of decades-old lurid sex claims


...

The claims were lurid and unverified so Helen Last, the counsellor hired by the Catholic Church in Melbourne to assist victims of clerical abuse, agonised before reporting them to her superiors.

It was 1996 and the newly appointed archbishop, George Pell, had just set up the Melbourne Response to handle the rising numbers of sex abuse claims received by the archdiocese.

An ex-seminarian known as ‘‘Joe’’ came forward alleging that Pell and several other priests had, 10 to 15 years earlier, been having sex with Mannix College trainee clerics at ‘‘parties … involving young men’’.

Joe was not a strong witness. He wanted $20,000 for compromising photographs which appeared to be of Pell and others engaged in sexual acts but could not produce the negatives. Despite this, Ms Last felt she could not dismiss Joe's allegations.

She reported the claims to her superior and also to the vicar-general, Monsignor Gerald Cudmore (who died in 2007).

‘‘He was shocked, and said ‘we have to do something’,’’ she said.

Ms Last says she developed suspicions about Pell very early during her work with the Archdiocese of Melbourne.

She heard many stories from victims of clergy sexual abuse in different parishes, especially that Pell knew what was happening and was protecting priests who were abusing children.

‘‘It was alleged to me early that Pell was among a group of offenders from Ballarat to Melbourne. They were part of the Ballarat organised clerical offending, which extended down to Laverton and around Melbourne.’’

While the credibility of the claims made by ‘‘Joe’’ was never substantiated, a detailed memo of the ex-seminarian’s allegations, seen by The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald, demonstrates that the church was aware of complaints about Pell’s character dating back more than 20 years.

In the light of Pell’s conviction for sexual abuse of two choirboys in 1996, The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald believe there is public interest in revealing the trail of complaints that have dogged the cardinal’s career.

If the ex-seminarian’s claims are included, there are nine known allegations about sexual misconduct against Pell, ranging from exposure to assault, although only two – his sexual abuse of the choirboys – have been upheld by a court.

Rumours have surrounded the cardinal, especially among survivors of abuse and their advocates, for many years. Some of the allegations might seem preposterous at first but the same argument was made by some about the choirboy's claim that he and another boy were assaulted more than 20 years ago. This makes the other allegations more relevant.

Ms Last’s contract was terminated in May 1997 as a result, she claims, of her defying explicit instructions from archbishop Pell and then vicar-general Denis Hart to stay away from the Doveton parish, which suffered six paedophiles in succession as parish priest or assistant priest.

One Doveton priest was the deranged Peter Searson, who wandered the Catholic school in military clothing, sometimes carried a gun, stabbed a bird with a screwdriver and tortured a cat. He was also molesting many children.

A teacher at the time, Carmel Rafferty – whose attempts at whistle-blowing ended her career in Catholic education – said a delegation went to Pell, Searson’s bishop, to share their concerns, but these were dismissed. Pell told the royal commission that this was because he was deceived by archbishop Frank Little and the education office.

After she was sacked and the pastoral response office closed, Ms Last set up In Good Faith and Associates to support survivors. She also set up the Melbourne Victims’ Collective, which has 120 members who complain they were traumatised by the Melbourne Response.

‘‘I believe Pell set up the Melbourne Response partly to protect himself. I believed that from the beginning ... He had no understanding of victim care,’’ she says.

Ms Last believes the Melbourne Response files should be subpoenaed and the decision in each case examined.

In 2015 she submitted her correspondence with the church over the Joe memo to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

It is believed that ‘‘Joe’’ has not pursued the matter. The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald have been unable to contact him.

The new Archbishop of Melbourne, Peter A. Comensoli, says he does not know of any other historic accusations from Pell’s time in Melbourne, apart from those that had already been before the court.

‘‘No. Only the Ballarat one and the trial’s not going ahead. There’s nothing in his files, and our files stop with when he finished up here.’’

However, correspondence seen by this masthead shows that the independent commissioner, Peter O’Callaghan, QC, investigated the seminary allegations, asking Ms Last to send him ‘‘the remainder of your files … as quickly as possible.’’

Approached last week, Mr O’Callaghan said that because the matter of Pell remains before the courts, ‘‘I must not and will not make any comments on the matters you raised.’’

Pell, who is to be sentenced next week, maintains his innocence of all claims and will appeal his conviction of sexually assaulting the two choirboys at a hearing set down for June 5 and 6.

The Age
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #474 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 1:17pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 1:12pm:
He's been found guilty - there are doubts about the handling of the case... twenty to one witnesses .... that raises doubt in anyone's mind about the one .... especially in a 'he said'/'he said' situation.  there is primary evidence - e.g. what a person says - then there is a requirement for corroboration....unfortunately our 'courts' most often convict on primary evidence without corroboration and often  ignore ex-culpatory corroboration from the defence.

I suspect his appeal will win.




And you don't think the jury took that into account in his trial?
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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #475 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 2:37pm
 
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Oh good, so because some people are innocently convicted, that means Pell is innocent. Got you.



huuuummmmm

so how about those who have spent years in jail  DAVID EASTMAN for one 19 years    and now another trial has found him INNOCENT>>thanks to DNA...



would you deprive him of more freedom because he was found GUILTY THE FIRST TIME?...

Angry Angry Angry

perhaps if you stopped twisting people words...

like claiming you think Pell is innocent.. Roll Eyes when that is just plain not true....

we have doubts about the 20 year old evidence.. which is confined to MEMORY...



and some of it just doesnt add up...

get it all clarified  and clear.... and yes if he is found GUILTY  a second time round with all that explained  I will accept his guilt....

when there is a question mark no matter how small I would rather another trial then convict an innocent person.



whats the big deal about that?

its not up to Pell    its up to the judiciary.to award an appeal..




What are the grounds for an appeal?
An appeal court can only set aside your conviction for one of the following three reasons: the verdict was unreasonable or couldn't be supported by the evidence; the judge made an error of law; or. there was a miscarriage of justice on any grounds (basis).

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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #476 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 3:23pm
 
The question is -

would you pick up the soap in a communal shower if Pell
was standing behind you?
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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #477 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 3:32pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 3:23pm:
The question is -

would you pick up the soap in a communal shower if Pell
was standing behind you?


I've never known anyone to spend as much time in communal showers as you do, Bobby.


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Re: George Pell Has Been Found Guilty Of Child Sexual
Reply #478 - Mar 18th, 2019 at 10:13pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 2:53pm:
Brendon wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 6:03am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 1:57am:
Brendon wrote on Mar 5th, 2019 at 9:01pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 5th, 2019 at 7:59pm:
I imagine Pell's barrister must have been the best, so how could one person's word persuade a jury to unanimously find Pell guilty?
Keep in mind Pell didn't testify. So it was the young man's word against....nobody, really.

Why didn't Pell take the stand? Yeah, right.

They believed him beyond reasonable doubt. And it wasn't just his testimony. Important would be testimony of others regarding what he confessed to what happened at the other boy's funeral.

I know we are bought up on fingerprints, DNA, and a hair in the boot of the car stuff, but witness testimony is very powerful evidence.


Sure, but witness testimony is all they have in the trial of the decade. This is the most senior Catholic ever to be convicted - of anything (apart from treason).

If we have these questions, what about the jury?


What do you mean "witness testimony is all they have"?

A witness who testifies he saw Pell committing a crime and was also a victim himself, is direct evidence. Direct evidence “directly” shows the defendant's guilt.

It's up to the jury to weigh the credibility of the witness. If they find his first hand evidence credible, it would be hard not to say Pell was guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Obviously they found him a credible witness. Now, thinking about that, if you were on the jury and you found him to be a credible witness, and therefore you would believe his first hand account - would you find Pell guilty?


I'd be tempted to, Brandon, sure. But I'd also be looking at the evidence and listening to what Pell's barrister presumably said about beyond any reasonable doubt.

I have doubts that the victim could not easily have made up a story to attack Pell and the Catholic Church. I also have doubt, as Pell said, that there wouldn't have been plenty of people milling around after a service of that size. Why would Pell put himself at such risk?

I have doubt, legitimate I think, that Pell would do something like this in a church after a mass. One thing Pell does have is a deep-seated belief in the rituals and sanctimony of the Catholic Church. Pell is most definitely a holier-than-thou kind of guy.

The look on Pell's face when he was told of these charges was genuine, I think. You could see the blood rise straight to his head and face. It is indeed a farcical charge - a priest of Pell's stature pulling out his dick and orally raping two boys as punishment for breaking into the priest's chamber. Pell's right - it's a ludicrous claim, even if true.

These are all doubts, Brandon. They've also caused me to doubt the 7.30 Report allegations made about Pell in his younger days in Melbourne. As the court ruled, none of that was provable, could easily have been misconstrued or didn't meet the threshold for a criminal act.

When I saw the witnesses describing their claims, I was convinced. I believed Pell was guilty for sure. The court found otherwise.

What I'm saying is I have reasonable doubts that have not been put to rest. I think for a trial of this magnitude, we should be presented with the evidence the jury went on. Members of the Catholic Church have come out to confirm these doubts, and I can understand them perfectly. Without the evidence, Pell is being turned into a martyr.

ah, it all boils down to the look on Pells face. I mean, you have doubts, the jury didnt when presented with the overwhelming mass of evidence presented over a number of weeks in a court of law according to strict rules of evidence. But they didnt see the look on Pells face presented on tabloid television for 10 seconds. But you did. The evidence is in then.
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