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no man hath ascended up to heaven (Read 1436 times)
Yadda
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no man hath ascended up to heaven
Feb 26th, 2019 at 8:25am
 


PROPOSITION;
Many people who believe in God [and an afterlife],       believe that when we die, we will all [then] go to Heaven or, to 'another place'.

Is this belief scripturally sound ?





longweekend58 wrote on Feb 24th, 2019 at 10:05pm:

...carlin is dead, currently bemoaning his error.




.


Yadda wrote on Feb 24th, 2019 at 11:40pm:

LW,
How can those who are dead, have the wherewith to 'bemoan' anything ?

The dead, are dead.    [....until the resurrection]



"...the dead know not any thing,"


Read your bible.

It is the WORD of God.





Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15  And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.






.



longweekend58 wrote on Feb 25th, 2019 at 8:17am:

read your new testament about the man in hell who wanted someone sent to his brothers to keep him out.







MORE....
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #1 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 8:26am
 

CONTINUED....



"Many claim that when the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom, it means he was taken immediately to heaven at death."

[cited in article below]

But Jesus stated directly;

John 3:13
...no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.




What the bible does teach....

All of the dead, are 'sleeping' in their death, until the resurrection, at Jesus 2nd coming.





WWW search....
does the rich man and lazarus parable prove we go straight to heaven


WWW search....
does the rich man and lazarus parable prove we are alive after death




Does the Rich Man and Lazarus Prove We Go Straight to Heaven or Hell After Death

8 min
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lovT2x01o






In speaking the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus,
it is clear, that Jesus was pandering to the beliefs of the Pharisees, whom he was addressing.
[in order that those Pharisees might accept the 'message' he was conveying.]


"They [the Pharisees] believe that the souls have the power to survive death and that there are rewards and punish­ments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice.....
....The Pharisees often ridiculed and made jest of Christ’s warnings against greed, hard-heartedness, and worldliness."

[cited in article below]



Why did Jesus use parables when speaking to the 'hard hearted' and the unbelieving ?

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:



.



Quote:

Lazarus & the Rich Man: Where Are They?


Do you have an immortal soul?
Is Lazarus in heaven this very moment waiting for you?
Millions claim that you do and he is!
Can you prove it from your Bible?



Millions of people turn to Luke 16, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, to substantiate their belief that we have an immortal soul and that Lazarus is in heaven right now waiting for our arrival...

It this true?

Can you prove it from your own Bible?

We should have a Bible reason for everything we believe, and take no man’s word for it, nor any church organization’s word for it....



....[that is] what is commonly taught in contemporary “churchianity”!

Millions, even today, firmly believe that the dead go immediately up to heaven or down to an ever-burning hell, and yet your Bible claims they remain in their graves until they are resurrected— made alive once again—by Jesus Christ.

There will be a resurrection of the righteous dead at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and then another at the end of the Millennium, 1,000 years later (Compare 1 Corinthians 15:23 with Revelation 20:5).



....And what of David, a man after God’s own heart (Acts 13:22)? Surely David is in heaven, isn’t he?

No, “For David is not ascended into the heav­ens” (Acts 2:34).



....With these things firmly entrenched in mind, we see clearly that according to your Bible, Lazarus and the rich man do not have immortal souls, nor are they now in heaven.

https://www.cgi.org/lazarus-the-rich-man-where-are-they


Read the whole article.



Mortal man;
Job 34:15
Job 34:15
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20



Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


QUESTION;
Are we a 'believer' in God ?

If we are;

We either believe men, and follow what men teach [being church doctrines],
or, today, we can read and study holy scripture, and seek to be guided by God's holy spirit.


If we are 'believers', we have a choice;
We will choose to either give pre-eminence in 'religious' authority, to the doctrines of a particular church,
or we will give pre-eminence in 'religious' authority to scripture.


Holy scripture is presented to us [to those who explore its words],
as the Logos, as the Word of God [...as directly embracing God's spirit].



John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
....
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



.



n.b.
At the conclusion the parable about the rich man and lazarus, Jesus message to its hearer, was that if men and women stubbornly refuse to hear Moses and the prophets [what Old Testament scripture teaches], then we embrace spiritual danger.


Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #2 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 8:32am
 
LOL ...

The size of "heaven" and the buildings are described.

Gold and emeralds all over the joint.  Grin

What a load of cobblers.
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The 2025 election could be a shocker.
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longweekend58
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #3 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 8:54am
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 8:32am:
LOL ...

The size of "heaven" and the buildings are described.

Gold and emeralds all over the joint.  Grin

What a load of cobblers.



you have heard of metaphors right? trying to describe an eternal existance with no time and no physical dimensions can only be described metaphorically.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #4 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 9:49am
 
Then why detail actual measurements?

It's as stupid as the creation bulldust.


Grin
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The 2025 election could be a shocker.
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The_Barnacle
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #5 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 11:53am
 
The problem I have with a soul and an afterlife (and ghosts for that matter) is that so much of our personality is tied up in the physical processes of our brain and body. Hormones and drugs have an enormous impact on our personalities and our sense of self.

So my question is: If a person has dementia while they are alive, will they also have dementia in the afterlife? And if not, why not?
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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #6 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 11:59am
 
Cardinal  Pell is off to hell.
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The_Barnacle
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #7 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:11am
 
The problem I have with a soul and an afterlife (and ghosts for that matter) is that so much of our personality is tied up in the physical processes of our brain and body. Hormones and drugs have an enormous impact on our personalities and our sense of self.

So my question is: If a person has dementia while they are alive, will they also have dementia in the afterlife? And if not, why not?
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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.
 
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Yadda
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #8 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:50am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:11am:

The problem I have with a soul and an afterlife (and ghosts for that matter) is that so much of our personality is tied up in the physical processes of our brain and body. Hormones and drugs have an enormous impact on our personalities and our sense of self.

So my question is: If a person has dementia while they are alive, will they also have dementia in the afterlife?

And if not, why not?





barnacle,

Did you ever watch that movie 'AWAKENINGS' ?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099077/


It was a story based on real events.

The 'take away';       is that though our memories and mental capacity may be lost, such RL incidents [recounted in that movie] suggest that our memories and mental capacity are still 'intact', and they are still 'there', though they may now, not be 'accessible' to us.



God can 'fix' us.

God has the power to completely heal us.



"...I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."


"....With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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The_Barnacle
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #9 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 11:49am
 
Yadda wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:50am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:11am:

The problem I have with a soul and an afterlife (and ghosts for that matter) is that so much of our personality is tied up in the physical processes of our brain and body. Hormones and drugs have an enormous impact on our personalities and our sense of self.

So my question is: If a person has dementia while they are alive, will they also have dementia in the afterlife?

And if not, why not?



God can 'fix' us.

God has the power to completely heal us.



So why doesn't she heal us BEFORE we die?
You are trying to tell me that people suffer dementia for decades causing great misery to them and their family but God waits until that person dies before fixing them.
That's cruel
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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.
 
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Yadda
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #10 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 2:14pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 11:49am:
Yadda wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:50am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:11am:

The problem I have with a soul and an afterlife (and ghosts for that matter) is that so much of our personality is tied up in the physical processes of our brain and body. Hormones and drugs have an enormous impact on our personalities and our sense of self.

So my question is: If a person has dementia while they are alive, will they also have dementia in the afterlife?

And if not, why not?



God can 'fix' us.

God has the power to completely heal us.



So why doesn't she heal us BEFORE we die?




I'm no Einstein.

And i know why.

Q.
Why don't people like yourself know why ?



.




The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 11:49am:

You are trying to tell me that people suffer dementia for decades causing great misery to them and their family but God waits until that person dies before fixing them.



'You are trying to tell me....'

Some people can't be told anything.

Are you one of those ?




.




The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 11:49am:

That's cruel



God is not cruel.

You may choose to attribute him so.




.




Psalms 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9  The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10  All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11  For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12  What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13  His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14  The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


Isaiah 66:3
.....Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4  I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #11 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 4:02pm
 
Want to be free from "Sin"?

Easy, be an atheist.  Wink

By definition, no Sin.  Cool
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The 2025 election could be a shocker.
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Jasin
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Re: no man hath ascended up to heaven
Reply #12 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 6:55pm
 
The new edition of the Bible states that Satan lives inside a Black Hole. God created Dinosaurs and the World only Ends at the International Dateline on the USA side.

...JaSIN Wink
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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