Australian Politics Forum - People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #45 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 10:00am

cods wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 9:44am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 8:54am:

"when the family court gets involved it is all emotional.... the dv part is usually over...."

No - it is not.. often the 'family' court is just the beginning of complaints that never saw the light of day previously, and the 'family' court is hopelessly biased against men.

PZ's facile comment that just because a woman gave birth means she should keep the hostages, is nonsense - and any decision should be based purely on a factual rendition of which parent would make the better carer.. and even then, it should be shared parenting and not one way.

Until fair dealing on FACTS is the norm, there will never be a resolution to this war declared by government on men, and it is government that bears the responsibility for the rising casualties, especially with a labor government setting fair to increase the violence against men in the forlorn hope that such a move will prevent violence....

Sure - when the sun rises in the West. All such a move will achieve is more abused, radicalised and polarised men who WILL respond at an escalating rate TO THE VIOLENCE HANDED TO THEM FOR LITTLE TO NO REASON.

Now wake up and think for a change, you people.

I only have one or two storied about the family court system.... and so far its been pretty equal.....and yes in both cases the female was the baddy...demanding and spiteful....but she was put in her place by the court system.....you make a huge thing about the court yet its thanks to people thats where they end up.....

if people put their children first there would be no need for a FAMILY COURT...to tell them what to do....

the court is there as a last resort.....you act is if its compulsory....

When women initiate nearly 90% of divorce/separation proceedings - mostly for reasons totally unrelated to violence - perhaps steps need to be taken to prevent this kind of behaviour on their part... let's introduce a rule that the person who wishes to abandon/break the family relationship is the one to leave the family home and start again, and must leave the family intact at its home with the person who wishes to retain the family relationship. The person wishing to leave can then visit and pay child support.... but the FAMILY must remain intact in its home with the one who wishes to preserve that family - NOT the one intent on destroying it for selfish reasons.

ALL claims of 'family violence' must be fully assessed on PROVABLE facts, not on someone's 'feelings' that they allege they have. Alleging violence is NOT a civil action, nor is imprisoning someone on the basis of someone else's claimed 'feelings'.

Which 'court' are you saying is a 'last resort'? An application under the current false 'dv' (anti) laws is readily available on no evidence, let alone proof, and is upheld by the same lack of standard, on any whim, in other words....

And you say this is not violence against the one accused?

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PZ547

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #46 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 10:36am

.
Just my opinion based on what you've said, Grappler, but you need to keep away from those men's rights groups. You're incapable of seeing anything other than what you want to see

further, don't tell me what to do or how to think

and -- you may believe you're the final word
-- but you're far from it

you sound toxic

and extremely misogynistic

do you realise how you come across?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #47 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 11:53am

PZ547 wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 10:36am:

.
Just my opinion based on what you've said, Grappler, but you need to keep away from those men's rights groups. You're incapable of seeing anything other than what you want to see

further, don't tell me what to do or how to think

and -- you may believe you're the final word
-- but you're far from it

you sound toxic

and extremely misogynistic

do you realise how you come across?

I'm a Men's Rights Group of one - I don't go anywhere near them... they are not yet sufficiently radicalised and they tend to believe that reason and decency will prevail in a knife fight.

My view is that you and countless others should steer clear of the propaganda and the mainstream media bullshit on these issues,and seek to fully understand them.

Less than 5% of callouts to police to attend 'family violence incidents' result in a charge.... yet somehow the courts are permitted to sanction ONE side of any dispute without reference to facts, and purely on the wish of the whiner, who may be motivated by any number of things, but certainly scarcely ever by reason.

Anyone who cannot see the dire consequences for the Rule of Law inherent in such things is blind.... and will one day pay the cost in some way.

Where you bin, Laden?

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PZ547

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #48 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 1:51pm

Quoting Grappler:
Quote:

Less than 5% of callouts to police to attend 'family violence incidents' result in a charge.... yet somehow the courts are permitted to sanction ONE side of any dispute without reference to facts, and purely on the wish of the whiner, who may be motivated by any number of things, but certainly scarcely ever by reason

You say:
'Less than 5% of callouts to police to attend family violence incidents result in a charge'

You say:
'Courts are permitted to sanction ONE side of any dispute ...' and then you carry on with your personal interpretation as to the motives of the individual complaining about DV

Lot of definitions for 'sanction'
I'm going to accept first off the rank i.e., 'threat. threat of penalty'

Then we try to put the DV situation into some sort of perspective

As of 2016:
Quote:

Australian police dealt with a domestic violence matter every 2 minutes

Also in 2016:
Quote:

Australian police deal with 5000 domestic violence matter a week

and it adds that domestic violence matters in 2016 were 'up' 7% in that year, so obviously 7% more than the year previous

I don't have figures for 2018 -- look them up if you like

Obviously, those sanctioned and or charged for domestic violence offences were NOT put off by saturation advertising or public exposure -- ignored it in fact -- resulting in an increase in DV incidents by 7% in one year

If we multiply 5000 DV incidents per week by 52 weeks, it amounts to 260,000 DV incident per year from a population of roughly 25 million, a good proportion of whom are children

Then we have this, also from 2016:

Quote:

Police union warns officers are at 'breaking point' —
May 29, 2018 - A 2016 Productivity Commission report puts police numbers at more than 70,000, with NSW representing the largest share, at more than 19,000 officers. That is around 200 officers per 100,000 people

.

Let's see that again:

200 officers per 100,000 people

to attend to murders
attempted murders
robberies
assorted violence
rapes
traffic
etc

In addition to attending crimes, officers are required to investigate all the above, compile documentation, etc.

Ok. Minnie phones the police to say Mickey is drunk, drugged, aggressive, has been threatening to take an axe to her. She's out on the lawn with the kids and neighbours, too scared to go inside her home

Police arrive, having just scraped two people off the bitumen after a two car accident which required them to shut down the road, observe removal of vehicles, etc.

They haven't had time to grab a drink of water, haven't eaten for hours, it's hot, other callouts are queued up

They call out to Mickey. He's in the garage, pissed, surly, mouthing off at Minnie and the neighbours. He's secreted the axe in the back yard. He's done this sort of thing before

The cops ask Mickey if he has any weapons. Has he used drugs today. Denial. He stinks of grog. Claims 'she' threatened him first and used up his last ten dollars

Cops have an urgent callout. They give Mickey a warning then go out to Minnie who says he's gonna really do it one day. Take him away, she tells the cops. Cops reply that Mickey has been warned and has agreed to cut it out. Any more problems, ring it through and someone will come out and speak to him again. Minnie tells them they'll be responsible if Mickey kills her and the kids. What do I have to do to get through to you guys? Cops get back in the patrol car and head out

If Minnie and Mickey go to court down the line, exhausted, overworked, understaffed officials will be required to listen (as they do all day) to he-said, she-said. Cops are hearing it 'every two minutes -- 260,000 times a year. One cop for every 500 Aussies

TV crime-shows deal with ONE incident during a 30 min or 60 min episode
Cops are dealing with an incident every two minutes

Police and DV courts are attempting to arbitrate and prevent violent offences which are stacking up around the clock. They do not have the resources to treat each incident as if it was a lengthy tv episode

Males commit the majority of DV offences. Women and children are overwhelmingly the victims. The statistics are stark

It's up to males to turn those stats around instead of waffling on about 'feminists' or, like you, claiming women shouldn't petition for divorce and then men wouldn't resort to so much domestic violence

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #49 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:15pm

PZ547 wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 1:51pm:

Quoting Grappler:
Quote:

Less than 5% of callouts to police to attend 'family violence incidents' result in a charge.... yet somehow the courts are permitted to sanction ONE side of any dispute without reference to facts, and purely on the wish of the whiner, who may be motivated by any number of things, but certainly scarcely ever by reason

You say:
'Less than 5% of callouts to police to attend family violence incidents result in a charge'

You say:
'Courts are permitted to sanction ONE side of any dispute ...' and then you carry on with your personal interpretation as to the motives of the individual complaining about DV

Lot of definitions for 'sanction'
I'm going to accept first off the rank i.e., 'threat. threat of penalty'

Then we try to put the DV situation into some sort of perspective

As of 2016:
Quote:

Australian police dealt with a domestic violence matter every 2 minutes

Also in 2016:
Quote:

Australian police deal with 5000 domestic violence matter a week

and it adds that domestic violence matters in 2016 were 'up' 7% in that year, so obviously 7% more than the year previous

I don't have figures for 2018 -- look them up if you like

Obviously, those sanctioned and or charged for domestic violence offences were NOT put off by saturation advertising or public exposure -- ignored it in fact -- resulting in an increase in DV incidents by 7% in one year

If we multiply 5000 DV incidents per week by 52 weeks, it amounts to 260,000 DV incident per year from a population of roughly 25 million, a good proportion of whom are children

Then we have this, also from 2016:

Quote:

Police union warns officers are at 'breaking point' —
May 29, 2018 - A 2016 Productivity Commission report puts police numbers at more than 70,000, with NSW representing the largest share, at more than 19,000 officers. That is around 200 officers per 100,000 people

.

Let's see that again:

200 officers per 100,000 people

to attend to murders
attempted murders
robberies
assorted violence
rapes
traffic
etc

You choose to overlook the point that 'dv laws' are NOT about violence - they are about complaints. Since they do not encompass any genuine offence from the outset - under no circumstances should anyone be sent to prison over them.

There are other laws that handle that.

You talk rubbish about divorce - near 90% of such things are initiated by women for reasons having nothing to do with violence - then the system is often gamed to give them advantage. The fact that such things can happen at all is sufficient reason to abolish these nonsenses.

You do NOT 'arbitrate and prevent' ANYTHING by slapping one person with the direct violence of dragging them into a court and handing them a sanction without reason while whole-heartedly accepting anything said by the other. In that case you are the CAUSE of the problem - not its solution - and no amount of bullying and bullshit will alter that reality.

Keep thinking... you cannot win this by waffling on about some mythical Mickey pissed in the garage - that is NOT what normally occurs in these things.

Women initiate 62% of DV incidents, far more often than men using weapons such as knives etc - and suffer 62% of the injuries as a result. Simply saying that men are bigger etc does not take away from women the responsibility to not behave like a child, and for her own actions. To do so is often to blame the victim for defending self.

Go look up what passes for 'domestic violence' - but ONLY when it is claimed by women. Essentially it is anything at all, without reference to facts.

Start by removing the word VIOLENCE from the equation unless and until a GENUINE act of violence has occurred. There's a good start. Even the use of such hyperbole is an incitement to use violence to resolve any complaint, no matter how trivial, and this kind of abuse of language has to be stopped NOW.

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« Last Edit: Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:39pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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PZ547

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #50 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:29pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:15pm:

PZ547 wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 1:51pm:

Quoting Grappler:
Quote:

Less than 5% of callouts to police to attend 'family violence incidents' result in a charge.... yet somehow the courts are permitted to sanction ONE side of any dispute without reference to facts, and purely on the wish of the whiner, who may be motivated by any number of things, but certainly scarcely ever by reason

You say:
'Less than 5% of callouts to police to attend family violence incidents result in a charge'

You say:
'Courts are permitted to sanction ONE side of any dispute ...' and then you carry on with your personal interpretation as to the motives of the individual complaining about DV

Lot of definitions for 'sanction'
I'm going to accept first off the rank i.e., 'threat. threat of penalty'

Then we try to put the DV situation into some sort of perspective

As of 2016:
Quote:

Australian police dealt with a domestic violence matter every 2 minutes

Also in 2016:
Quote:

Australian police deal with 5000 domestic violence matter a week

and it adds that domestic violence matters in 2016 were 'up' 7% in that year, so obviously 7% more than the year previous

I don't have figures for 2018 -- look them up if you like

Obviously, those sanctioned and or charged for domestic violence offences were NOT put off by saturation advertising or public exposure -- ignored it in fact -- resulting in an increase in DV incidents by 7% in one year

If we multiply 5000 DV incidents per week by 52 weeks, it amounts to 260,000 DV incident per year from a population of roughly 25 million, a good proportion of whom are children

Then we have this, also from 2016:

Quote:

Police union warns officers are at 'breaking point' —
May 29, 2018 - A 2016 Productivity Commission report puts police numbers at more than 70,000, with NSW representing the largest share, at more than 19,000 officers. That is around 200 officers per 100,000 people

.

Let's see that again:

200 officers per 100,000 people

to attend to murders
attempted murders
robberies
assorted violence
rapes
traffic
etc

You choose to overlook the point that 'dv laws' are NOT about violence - they are about complaints. Since they do not encompass any genuine offence from the outset - under no circumstances should anyone be sent to prison over them.

There are other laws that handle that.

You talk rubbish about divorce - near 90% of such things are initiated by women for reasons having nothing to do with violence - then the system is often gamed to give them advantage. The fact that such things can happen at all is sufficient reason to abolish these nonsenses.

You do NOT 'arbitrate and prevent' ANYTHING by slapping one person with the direct violence of dragging them into a court and handing them a sanction without reason while whole-heaertedly accdepting anyt In that case you are the CAUSE of the problem - not its solution - and no amount of bullying and bullshit will alter that reality.

Keep thinking... you cannot win this by waffling on about some mythical Mickey pissed in the garage - that is NOT what normally occurs in these things.

Women initiate 62% of DV incidents, far more often than men using weapons such as knives etc - and suffer 62% of the injuries as a result. Simply saying that men are bigger etc does not take away from women the responsibility to not behave like a child, and for her own actions. To do so is often to blame the victim for defending self.

Go look up what passes for 'domestic violence' - but ONLY when it is claimed by women. Essentially it is anything at all, without reference to facts.

You're not worth the time or effort

You cannot be reasoned with

Keep pushing your barrow. It will finish you off if you're not careful

All the way through, you damn women, blame women. That's not logical

Just face it -- because it comes through everything you write very clearly -- you have it in for women. You're like the self-righteous parent for whom the entire school and teachers are wrong for holding precious little Johnny to account

News reports tell the story. And people read them. You, however, obviously interpret evidence differently to everyone else

Ok. Sit and stew in it

No laws will change due to your biased input

It obviously enrages you when some bully comes home to dish it out to his wife, kids, parents, same sex partner, dog, etc. and is held to account

Strange he managed to control his rage at work, on the highway or in public transport on the way home

managed to control his rage when in the pub and surrounded by guys who'd delight in pushing his head in

managed to control his rage when waving to neighbours or phoning his parents

But 'lost control' at the sight of his wife, kids, partner -- the captive audience behind the front door

suddenly it's the wife, kids, dog which 'provoked' him

heard it hundreds of times. We all have

If DV laws weren't necessary, they wouldn't exist. No one wants to listen to that poo or deal with it all day

anyway, off you go, tilting at windmills

'Radicalise' those mens groups. Maybe they'll all take off their shirts and carry placards

Have a go at reversing divorce law too, while you're at it. Get those women back in line

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #51 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:45pm

No, PZ - it is YOU who cannot be reasoned with.

You simply will NOT accept that the very vast majority of callouts for 'family violence' INVOLVE NO VIOLENCE, and should never even be called that, since to do so predisposes cops to arrive loaded for bear and actually create a situation. Then it is the actions of courts in applying wrongful 'dv orders' at the drop of a hat which IS an act of violence, and is a root cause of further problems. You simply cannot go about abusing people's rights and abusing them personally without getting a response.

Put simply you have no right to call a disagreement between two alleged adults 'violence' by one side. No right whatsoever... and the use of such language is inflammatory and is pure propaganda.

I've told you fools over and over - you do not resolve the issues of violence by using and even initiating violence to solve it...

Get over yourselves and this insane set of non-laws - and get used to the idea that the State has NO right to intervene without proper licence - i.e when a GENUINE act has occurred.

It is YOU who are carrying on this war... not those like me who are trying to stop it and prevent it getting worse due to the actions of those seeking to bully others on the basis of unsupported allegations.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 37678 Gender:	Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws. Reply #52 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:55pm Alphabet/numbers......do you know how the DV things works from the practical real life POV, including that of the Cops who get assigned to go to a House from where a complaint has been made?
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cods

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #53 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:56pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 2:45pm:

No, PZ - it is YOU who cannot be reasoned with.

You simply will NOT accept that the very vast majority of callouts for 'family violence' INVOLVE NO VIOLENCE, and should never even be called that, since to do so predisposes cops to arrive loaded for bear and actually create a situation. Then it is the actions of courts in applying wrongful 'dv orders' at the drop of a hat which IS an act of violence, and is a root cause of further problems. You simply cannot go about abusing people's rights and abusing them personally without getting a response.

Put simply you have no right to call a disagreement between two alleged adults 'violence' by one side. No right whatsoever... and the use of such language is inflammatory and is pure propaganda.

I've told you fools over and over - you do not resolve the issues of violence by using and even initiating violence to solve it...

Get over yourselves and this insane set of non-laws - and get used to the idea that the State has NO right to intervene without proper licence - i.e when a GENUINE act has occurred.

It is YOU who are carrying on this war... not those like me who are trying to stop it and prevent it getting worse due to the actions of those seeking to bully others on the basis of unsupported allegations

and that would be the most UNREASONABLE reply I have read in a long while.... Grin

I think I have already said... dont reply unless you agree with grap..

or he will get unreasonable and abusive..

Quote:

I've told you fools over and over - you do not resolve the issues of violence by using and even initiating violence to solve it...

followed by this...

Quote:

It is YOU who are carrying on this war... not those like me who are trying to stop it and prevent it getting worse due to the actions of those seeking to bully others on the basis of unsupported allegations[/qu

ote]

can you at least tell us FOOLS... where you get your figures from regarding this statement...

Quote:

You simply will NOT accept that the very vast majority of callouts for 'family violence' INVOLVE NO VIOLENCE,

how do you come to that conclusion?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #54 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 3:03pm

I didn't start it, cods... and my facts remain untouched.....

You also need to learn to read and to think straight past the bullshit you are handed.

Starting by leaving out the word 'violence' in discussion of simple disputes is a good start....

A genuine resolution by a 'court' of a family dispute would be to order both sides to keep the peace.. not one, and the ONLY time the term 'violence' should be used is when there IS violence - not when someone says : "No - you can't have the credit card!"

That last is the kind of nonsense and insanity that the feminists have foisted upon us as 'domestic violence' by man only - but never women.

Easy to come by the figures, cods - read the papers.... or google it.

Bullying one side will never resolve the non-issue of that one side possibly bullying in the future... and it is NOT acceptable to say that men are always the bullies in disagreements.

Keep on your way - there will be more casualties until you wake up and see it straight.

Ask yourselves a simple question - would that bloke in Glen Innes have shot those cops if he thought that any complaint would be handled fairly and on the facts?

And FYI - I blame the State for even considering these stupid non-laws that dictate that a person can be attacked by the State without having committed any offence.

Women who abuse it are at fault - I do not blame all women as some of you seek to say in order to cover the weakness of your position... the old blame game rather than addressing facts....

PZ - your calculations are wrong - solid figures are available and are occasionally posted in the papers, and you should NEVER assume that men are always the abusers.... women abuse children far more than men do.

Stop the war on men.

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« Last Edit: Feb 13^th, 2019 at 4:04pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #55 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 3:54pm

Perhaps you could explain to the audience exactly how my reply is 'unreasonable', and how what it is in response to is not unreasonable - and precisely how I've 'abused' anyone?

If everything I say is based on facts and figures - there is nothing 'unreasonable' about it.... unless I've called someone something dire - there is no abuse.

Your kind of thinking, cods, is precisely why this issue is so out of control, and will only get worse.

I cannot deal with people who are totally unreasonable, and who will not accept that simply labeling something as 'violence' does not make it violence, and in no way offers the State any 'right' to intervene with violence.+

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #56 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 3:56pm

"newspaper reports tell the story".....

Really? Where you bin, Laden? They tell the 'approved line' on the story and play to a gullible audience that wants to hear drama - there is no drama in 'woman punches/kicks/abuses man' and everyone laughs, but plenty in 'man punches woman'- you claim they must be right if they support the 'woman always victim' nonsense - yet you refuse to give credence to news reports that only 5% or so of call-outs result in any charge - and even then those charges are not stated and could be anything at all including, and most likely - The Aboriginal Trifecta of 'abusive words', 'assault police' and 'resist arrest'.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34507 Gender:	Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws. Reply #57 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 6:50pm There is no point trying to discuss anything to do with family violence on this forum. Grappler simply destory any chance at communication. I've tried many times over the years. He is utterly unreasonable and any salient point he has is completely lost in his fanaticism. I've simply given up.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #58 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 6:55pm

mothra wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 6:50pm:

There is no point trying to discuss anything to do with family violence on this forum. Grappler simply destory any chance at communication.

I've tried many times over the years.

He is utterly unreasonable and any salient point he has is completely lost in his fanaticism.

I've simply given up.

What you mistake for 'fanaticism' is merely having to respond to dead-headed comments and refute nonsense put forward instead of argument.... since some are so fanatical in their defence of the current catastrophe that they simply argue and argue endlessly without refuting anything I say.

It is my view that those who oppose what I put forward with facts and reasoning are unreasonable..... since they do not present any facts in response, nor do they ever respond to the issues I raise, but just endlessly repeat the approved line, which has been shown to be a total failure.. and a very harmful one.

Now if you have anything positive to add to the discussion - by all means - go ahead..... but don't whine when I respond.... and do try to stay away from the trees and look at the forest .. Roll Eyes

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BigP

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Re: People 'gaming' the domestic violence Laws.
Reply #59 - Feb 13^th, 2019 at 7:03pm

mothra wrote on Feb 13^th, 2019 at 6:50pm:

There is no point trying to discuss anything to do with family violence on this forum. Grappler simply destory any chance at communication.

I've tried many times over the years.

He is utterly unreasonable and any salient point he has is completely lost in his fanaticism.

I've simply given up.

I would be interested in your take on family violence Moth, But maybe we could start with the abridged version

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