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blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad (Read 9181 times)
freediver
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blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:26pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 10:59am:
freediver wrote on Jan 16th, 2019 at 9:56pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2019 at 9:38pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 16th, 2019 at 9:24pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2019 at 9:13pm:
issuevoter wrote on Jan 16th, 2019 at 8:48pm:
Where's the doctor of  divinity when you need him? Charlie Hebdo Day has little to do with what is being discussed here.

Charlie Hebdo Day is the day when European liberal democracy and freedom of speech (including the right to lampoon anyone and anything) was denied by Islam in the most violent terms.

Like 911 in New York, Muzlims said you will not have these freedoms.

If you attempt to exercise your rights, or your sense of humour, we will kill you in your homelands.

This is the meaning of Charlie Hebdo Day.


It was denied by some Muslims - extremists - not moderates.  I agree with you that was reprehensible and uncalled for.   Do not however, blame all Muslims nor the religion of Islam for this act.

Tell me, do you blame all of Germany for the Holocaust or all of Japan for the Rape of Nanking?   I'm curious to see if your logic extends to people other than Muslims...   Roll Eyes


Do you blame Nazis for the holocaust?


In WWII, yes, I do, Freediver.   How many Nazis are alive today in Germany, out of a matter of interest?  How many militarists in Japan are there alive today?   You appear to like the idea of blaming all Muslims for the acts of a minority.  Do you blame Germans for the Holocaust or Japanese for Nanking, Freediver?   Roll Eyes


What's the difference between blaming Muslims and blaming Nazis?


Because only a tiny minority of Muslims commit Terrorism, FD.  You've been arguing this now for over 15 years IIRC.  Are you really so slow that you cannot learn even the basic facts of reality?

Quote:
Is it that the Muslims won and the Nazis lost, so we have to be snivelling sycophants for Islam?


No, because the majority of Muslims are just as much victims - even more so than Westerners - of the Terrorists.   You really are a silly sausage if you believe being killed by Terrorists constitutes "victory" for Muslims.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Only a tiny minority of Nazis commit terrorism Brian. So can you point out where the difference is?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:33pm:
Good grief Brian, next you'll be telling me that the vast majority of Nazis weren't rejecting the violent and intolerant interpretation of Nazism, because virtually all Nazis agreed with it.

Which of course would be absurd - I mean how could we reconcile that with FD constantly pointing out to us that arguing that not all muslims are extremists is no more valid than arguing that not all Nazis are extremist?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:34pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:26pm:
Only a tiny minority of Nazis commit terrorism Brian. So can you point out where the difference is?


See Brian??!!  Grin Grin

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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #1 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:44pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:40pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:33pm:
Good grief Brian, next you'll be telling me that the vast majority of Nazis weren't rejecting the violent and intolerant interpretation of Nazism, because virtually all Nazis agreed with it.

Which of course would be absurd - I mean how could we reconcile that with FD constantly pointing out to us that arguing that not all muslims are extremists is no more valid than arguing that not all Nazis are extremist?


Many years ago, I was asked if there was such a thing as a "good Nazi".  I answered by asking what they meant by the word "good".  Did they mean that were there any Nazis who were good at being Nazis and who (obviously) enjoyed killing/raping/sending innocent people to the death camps or did they mean were there any who were morally "good".   Funnily enough, my interlocutor got upset at that question.   He obviously didn't think there could be any "good Nazis".   I am unsure about the second part of my answer but I am sure there were plenty of Nazis who were good at being Nazis.  How else did they manage to industrially kill 10 million people?    Shocked

As for what FD argues,  I don't believe even he can keep track of all the points and contradictions he has made 'cause I certainly can't!  I mean, he won't even answer a simple question!  Roll Eyes

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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #2 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:39pm
 
Would you like to take a wild stab FD, and guess which group has the greatest proportion of violent racist thugs - muslims in Islam, or nazis in Nazism?

Do you think the answer to that question has some bearing on why one group is demonized more than the other?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #3 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:29pm
 
are there as many NAZIs today  as there are MUSLIM TERRORIST.??..

lets hope no on e ever challenges the NAZI party to be the most evil  in our lifetime...

history will deal with who is/was the worst of the worst......


its repeating bad stuff that is the problem ....not learn ing from the past..
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #4 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:42pm
 
cods wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:29pm:
are there as many NAZIs today  as there are MUSLIM TERRORIST.??..


In Australia there are many more Nazis than Muslim terrorists.

"Radicalisation camps, fight clubs, hate campaigns and covert plans to infiltrate major political parties — this is the landscape for the far right in Australia today.

"Some groups, like the Antipodean Resistance, don't shy away from the Nazi label, with swastikas, Sieg Heil salutes and posters calling for the extermination of Australia's Jews.

"Others — including the Australia First Party, the United Patriots Front, the New Guard — don't outwardly identify with Nazism but have doctrines littered with fascist ideas."
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moses
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #5 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 3:39pm
 
Rights of Non-Muslims in an Islamic State

The Jizya (tribute)

Jizya literally means penalty. It is a protection tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic regimes, confirming their legal status. Paying the Jizya is a symbol of humiliation and submission because Dhimmi are not regarded as citizens of the Islamic state although they are, in most cases, natives to the country. Such an attitude alienates the Dhimmi from being an essential part of the community. How can a Dhimmi feel at home in his own land, among his own people, and with his own government, when he knows that the Jizya, which he pays, is a symbol of humiliation and submission?
According to Muslim jurists, the following legal ordinances must be enforced on Dhimmi(Christians and Jews alike) who reside among Muslims:
1) Dhimmi are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues. They are allowed to renovate old churches or houses of worship provided they do not allow to add any new construction. "Old churches" are those which existed prior to Islamic conquests and are included in a peace accord by Muslims. Construction of any church, temple, or synagogue in the Arab Peninsula (Saudi Arabia) is prohibited. It is the land of the Prophet and only Islam should prevail there. Yet, Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses of worship in any land they conquer.

2) Dhimmi are not allowed to pray or read their sacred books out loud at home or in churches, lest Muslims hear their prayers.

3) Dhimmi are not allowed to print their religious books or sell them in public places and markets. They are allowed to publish and sell them among their own people, in their churches and temples.

4) Dhimmi are not allowed to install the cross on their houses or churches since it is a symbol of infidelity.

5) Dhimmi are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and magazines.

6) Dhimmi are not allowed to congregate in the streets during their religious festivals; rather, each must quietly make his way to his church or temple.

7) Dhimmi are not allowed to join the army unless there is indispensable need for them in which case they are not allowed to assume leadership positions but are considered mercenaries.

Once a person becomes a Muslim, he cannot recant. If he does, he will be warned first, then he will be given three days to reconsider and repent. If he persists in his apostasy, his wife is required to divorce him, his property is confiscated, and his children are taken away from him. He is not allowed to remarry. Instead, he should be taken to court and sentenced to death. If he repents, he may return to his wife and children or remarry.

According to the Hanifites an apostate female is not allowed to get married. She must spend time in meditation in order to return to Islam. If she does not repent or recant, she will not be sentenced to death, but she is to be persecuted, beaten and jailed
until she dies. Other schools of Shari`a demand her death.

A non-Muslim wishing to become a Muslim is encouraged to do so and anyone, even a father or a mother, who attempts to stop him, may be punished. However, anyone who makes an effort to proselytize a Muslim to any other faith may face punishment.

Marriage and Children
A Muslim male can marry a Dhimmi girl, but a Dhimmi man is not allowed to marry a Muslim girl. If a woman embraces Islam and wants to get married, her non-Muslim father does not have the authority to give her away to her bridegroom. She must be given away by a Muslim guardian.

If one parent is a Muslim, children must be raised as Muslims. If the father is a Dhimmi and his wife converts to Islam, she must get a divorce; then she will have the right of custody of her child. Some fundamentalist schools indicate that a Muslim husband has the right to confine his Dhimmi wife to her home and restrain her from going to her own house of worship.

The Witness of Dhimmi
Dhimmi cannot testify against Muslims. They can only testify against other Zimmis or Musta'min. Their oaths are not considered valid in an Islamic court. According to the Shari`a, a Dhimmi is not even qualified to be under oath.

Political Rights and Duties
Some … “schools of the Shari`a which hold that non-Muslims are not allowed to assume any position which might bestow on them any authority over any Muslim. A position of sovereignty demands the implementation of Islamic ideology. It is alleged that a non-Muslim (regardless of his ability, sincerity, and loyalty to his country) cannot and would not work faithfully to achieve the ideological and political goals of Islam.

Business World
The political arena and the official public sectors are not the only area in which non-Muslims are not allowed to assume a position of authority.

Muslims and Dhimmis
Relationships between Muslims and Dhimmis are classified in two categories: what is forbidden and what is allowable.


continued next post
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #6 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 3:46pm
 
Continued from last post

I. The Forbidden:
A Muslim is not allowed to:
1.emulate the Dhimmis in their dress or behavior.

2.attend Dhimmi festivals or support them in any way which may give them any power over Muslims.

3. lease his house or sell his land for the construction of a church, temple, liquor store, or anything that may benefit the Dhimmi's faith.

4.work for Dhimmis in any job that might promote their faith such as constructing a church.

5.make any endowment to churches or temples.

6.carry any vessel that contains wine, work in wine production, or transport pigs.

7. address Dhimmis with any title such as: "my master" or "my lord."

II. The Allowable
A Muslim is allowed to:
1. financially assist the Dhimmis, provided the money is not used in violation of Islamic law like buying wine or pork.

2.give the right of pre-emption (priority in buying property) to his Dhimmi neighbor. The Hanbilites disapprove of this.

3.eat food prepared by the People of the Book.

4.console the Dhimmis in an illness or in the loss of a loved one. It is also permissible for a Muslims to escort a funeral to the cemetery, but he has to walk in front of the coffin, not behind it, and he must depart before the deceased is buried.

5.congratulate the Dhimmiis for a wedding, birth of a child, return from a long trip, or recovery from illness. However, Muslims are warned not to utter any word which may suggest approval of the Dhimmis' faith, such as: "May Allah exalt you," "May Allah honor you," or "May Allah give your religion victory."

Conclusion
This study shows us that non-Muslims are not regarded as citizens by any Islamic state,
even if they are original natives of the and. To say otherwise is to conceal the truth. Justice and equality require that any Christian Pakistani, Melanesian, Turk, or Arab be treated as any other citizen of his own country. He deserves to enjoy the same privileges of citizenship regardless of religious affiliation. To claim that Islam is the true religion and to accuse other religions of infidelity is a social, religious and legal offense against the People of the Book.


Q/.What is the difference between Nazism and islam?

A/. Nothing.

So why are *moderates* and sick leftards trying to differentiate between the two?

At least the higher grades of muslims (the terrorists) are honest about the aims of islam.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #7 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 5:20pm
 
moses wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 3:46pm:
Continued from last post

[url=https://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm]
I. The Forbidden:
A Muslim is not allowed to:
1.emulate the Dhimmis in their dress or behavior.

2.attend Dhimmi festivals or support them in any way which may give them any power over Muslims.

3. lease his house or sell his land for the construction of a church, temple, liquor store, or anything that may benefit the Dhimmi's faith.

4.work for Dhimmis in any job that might promote their faith such as constructing a church.

5.make any endowment to churches or temples.

6.carry any vessel that contains wine, work in wine production, or transport pigs.

7. address Dhimmis with any title such as: "my master" or "my lord."

II. The Allowable
A Muslim is allowed to:
1. financially assist the Dhimmis, provided the money is not used in violation of Islamic law like buying wine or pork.

2.give the right of pre-emption (priority in buying property) to his Dhimmi neighbor. The Hanbilites disapprove of this.

3.eat food prepared by the People of the Book.

4.console the Dhimmis in an illness or in the loss of a loved one. It is also permissible for a Muslims to escort a funeral to the cemetery, but he has to walk in front of the coffin, not behind it, and he must depart before the deceased is buried.

5.congratulate the Dhimmiis for a wedding, birth of a child, return from a long trip, or recovery from illness. However, Muslims are warned not to utter any word which may suggest approval of the Dhimmis' faith, such as: "May Allah exalt you," "May Allah honor you," or "May Allah give your religion victory."

Conclusion
This study shows us that non-Muslims are not regarded as citizens by any Islamic state,
even if they are original natives of the and. To say otherwise is to conceal the truth. 


How do you come to that conclusion, Moses? I'm curious.

What's wrong with Muslims staying away from pork, booze and church production? What else would you expect?

And how does this revoke anybody else's citizenship?

Cheers.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #8 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 5:33pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:39pm:

Would you like to take a wild stab FD, and guess which group has the greatest proportion of violent racist thugs - muslims in Islam, or nazis in Nazism?

Do you think the answer to that question has some bearing on why one group is demonized more than the other?




gandalf,

IMO, ISLAM is very similar [in its violent political modus] to the philosophy which we know as Nazism.

And imo, ISLAM is definitely a philosophy which promotes violent 'religious' fascism.

duckduckgo.com;
similarity between islam and nazism



gandalf,

Many moslems are proud to publicly proclaim that they are followers of ISLAM.

But almost all of those same moslems,      will declare it to be violently objectionable,     for any non-moslem to examine and criticise the apparent doctrines and tenets and laws, of ISLAM.

Why is that ?

Why is it violently objectionable to many moslems,    that the doctrines and the tenets and the laws,
of ISLAM should be exposed to the OPEN, PUBLIC SCRUTINY, of persons who are not followers of ISLAM ?


And why does the examination, by any reasonable person, of the doctrines and tenets and laws, of ISLAM,
always expose the violent religious bigotry, at the heart of ISLAM ?

And why do moslems object to that truth about ISLAM being exposed ?




Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1424590530/17#17
Quote:

The heart of ISLAM is the Koran
  [and heart of the Koran, is the ideas and ideals it contains].





SO WHAT DOES THE KORAN SAY ABOUT MOSLEMS LIVING IN PEACE WITH DISBELIEVERS ? ;

---------- >






Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1547622612/0#0




Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1536141258/46#46

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1534830555/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #9 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:02pm
 
That's true, Y. Many Moslems are followers of Islam.

Do you deny it, G?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #10 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:28pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:39pm:
Would you like to take a wild stab FD, and guess which group has the greatest proportion of violent racist thugs - muslims in Islam, or nazis in Nazism?

Do you think the answer to that question has some bearing on why one group is demonized more than the other?


Do you think the proportion might have something to do with the fact that Muslims won and Nazis lost?

If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #11 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:35pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:02pm:
That's true, Y. Many Moslems are followers of Islam.

Do you deny it, G?



Tell us what is new and positive in Islam, Paki.  A question un-answered for about 800 years by Muslims and their spineless apologist like you because the evident and obvious answer is 'nothing'.


Can you do better than 'nothing', Paki?  Go on, lippy git, tell us what's new and wonderful about Islam.








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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #12 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:42pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
cods wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:29pm:
are there as many NAZIs today  as there are MUSLIM TERRORIST.??..


In Australia there are many more Nazis than Muslim terrorists.

"Radicalisation camps, fight clubs, hate campaigns and covert plans to infiltrate major political parties — this is the landscape for the far right in Australia today.

"Some groups, like the Antipodean Resistance, don't shy away from the Nazi label, with swastikas, Sieg Heil salutes and posters calling for the extermination of Australia's Jews.

"Others — including the Australia First Party, the United Patriots Front, the New Guard — don't outwardly identify with Nazism but have doctrines littered with fascist ideas."




   you dont say how many though.....some of these far right groups  only have about 10 or 12 members.......

the police know who they are    its not like they are shrinking violets is it...

where as our muslims groups  are more shady......

can you honestly say we know who and where they all are????????????....

btw how many far righties in our jails..????
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #13 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:48pm
 
Greg just makes it up. He doesn't even bother to make sense.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #14 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:49pm
 
cods wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:42pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
cods wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:29pm:
are there as many NAZIs today  as there are MUSLIM TERRORIST.??..


In Australia there are many more Nazis than Muslim terrorists.

"Radicalisation camps, fight clubs, hate campaigns and covert plans to infiltrate major political parties — this is the landscape for the far right in Australia today.

"Some groups, like the Antipodean Resistance, don't shy away from the Nazi label, with swastikas, Sieg Heil salutes and posters calling for the extermination of Australia's Jews.

"Others — including the Australia First Party, the United Patriots Front, the New Guard — don't outwardly identify with Nazism but have doctrines littered with fascist ideas."




   you dont say how many though.....some of these far right groups  only have about 10 or 12 members.......




Link?

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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #15 - Jan 17th, 2019 at 8:05pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:35pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:02pm:
That's true, Y. Many Moslems are followers of Islam.

Do you deny it, G?



Tell us what is new and positive in Islam, Paki.  A question un-answered for about 800 years by Muslims and their spineless apologist like you because the evident and obvious answer is 'nothing'.


Can you do better than 'nothing', Paki?  Go on, lippy git, tell us what's new and wonderful about Islam.





Why do you keep repeating this, old boy? Why don't you just go back to my answers in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2012, 2015, 2016, and all their supplementary questions and answers you responded to by playing the cunning Paki ruse?

I do hope you're just on your 8th schnapps and not permanently deranged, dear. But that is 12 years of forgetting the answer to the question.

Would you like me to whisper it to you after lights-out? Again?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #16 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:30am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:28pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:39pm:
Would you like to take a wild stab FD, and guess which group has the greatest proportion of violent racist thugs - muslims in Islam, or nazis in Nazism?

Do you think the answer to that question has some bearing on why one group is demonized more than the other?


Do you think the proportion might have something to do with the fact that Muslims won and Nazis lost?

If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?


Meaningless hypotheticals are meaningless. So basically you concede that muslims are overall 'nicer' than nazis today... and yet that doesn't stop you from still equating the two groups as equally horrible, supporters of genocide etc.

Also, for your "extremist until victorious" logic to make sense, wouldn't we expect to see muslims living as minorities to be the most extreme, since they haven't triumphed and taken over power from the infidel yet? Whereas these communities tend to be relatively moderate. Or let me guess, this is where your 'victory through taqqiya' meme kicks in right?
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« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:40am by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #17 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 8:10am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:02pm:

That's true, Y.

Many Moslems are followers of Islam.

Do you deny it, G?





And mainstream ISLAM [ISLAMIC law],
makes the murder of those who reject ISLAM,
a lawful act     [even in Australia].


[coz, ISLAMIC doctrine teaches the 'Aussie' moslem,     that ISLAMIC law, is superior to Australian law.]



Moslem = = a follower of ISLAM.

Do you deny it, K?





Its a different culture, innit.

And if a moslem lives next door to you.

Lets all celebrate it !



/sarc off


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #18 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 8:19am
 
Yadda wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 8:10am:

And mainstream ISLAM [ISLAMIC law],
makes the murder of those who reject ISLAM,
a lawful act     [even in Australia].


[coz, ISLAMIC doctrine teaches the 'Aussie' moslem,     that ISLAMIC law, is superior to Australian law.]





"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76



.



Mainstream ISLAMIC LAW, TEACHES.....

Fighting and killing those who reject ISLAM = = doing very good works !!!







.



IMAGE...
...

Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar outside Parramatta police headquarters


QUESTION;
What 'set off' Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar on that fateful day, to decide to murder Australian Curtis Cheng in Parramatta, NSW ???

ANSWER;
ONLY ALLAH KNOWS!



n.b.
ISLAMIC culture encouraged Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, to murder Australian Curtis Cheng.



Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar was inspired by ISLAM's imperative, which urged him TO KILL THE ENEMIES OF ALLAH.



.




"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111




.




IMAGE.....
...

These are a people, WHO DID NOT BUILD OUR NATIONS,
...but it is their intention to destroy everything, within our nations, which is non-ISLAM.







IMAGE.....
...

These are the people, whom our governments are,
allowing to live among us,      and to walk past us, on our streets.




.



ARGUMENT;
Those people [in the images above] are human sewage, EVERY ONE OF THEM.

Examine the signs and the placards which they are holding.


"[our] Jihad will continue..."

"[our] ISLAM will dominate the world..."




Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1536141258/46#46

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1534830555/0#0



.



Get off your arse, AND DO SOMETHING Scot.   !!!!






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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #19 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 12:17pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:30am:
freediver wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:28pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:39pm:
Would you like to take a wild stab FD, and guess which group has the greatest proportion of violent racist thugs - muslims in Islam, or nazis in Nazism?

Do you think the answer to that question has some bearing on why one group is demonized more than the other?


Do you think the proportion might have something to do with the fact that Muslims won and Nazis lost?

If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?


Meaningless hypotheticals are meaningless. So basically you concede that muslims are overall 'nicer' than nazis today... and yet that doesn't stop you from still equating the two groups as equally horrible, supporters of genocide etc.

Also, for your "extremist until victorious" logic to make sense, wouldn't we expect to see muslims living as minorities to be the most extreme, since they haven't triumphed and taken over power from the infidel yet? Whereas these communities tend to be relatively moderate. Or let me guess, this is where your 'victory through taqqiya' meme kicks in right?


This hypothetical is not meaningless Gandalf, which is probably why you are so evasive. If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Also, I am not sure where you got your "logic" from. Not my posts.

The point about Muslims winning and Nazis losing is that the Muslims got to impose Islam on a lot more people than the Nazis did, so there is now a much greater effort at putting a positive spin on Islam than there is for Nazism, because it is the apparatus of state in a big chunk of the world. Partly directed inward at their own population, partly directed outward at the infidel. Greg has internalised this effort. There are also a lot more otherwise decent people who don't really have a choice. That is not you of course. You chose to adopt Islam, and as far as I can tell you came up with the mindless collective of treacherous Jews meme all by yourself.

Goebbels would have been proud.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #20 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 12:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 12:17pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:30am:
freediver wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 7:28pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:39pm:
Would you like to take a wild stab FD, and guess which group has the greatest proportion of violent racist thugs - muslims in Islam, or nazis in Nazism?

Do you think the answer to that question has some bearing on why one group is demonized more than the other?


Do you think the proportion might have something to do with the fact that Muslims won and Nazis lost?

If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?


Meaningless hypotheticals are meaningless. So basically you concede that muslims are overall 'nicer' than nazis today... and yet that doesn't stop you from still equating the two groups as equally horrible, supporters of genocide etc.

Also, for your "extremist until victorious" logic to make sense, wouldn't we expect to see muslims living as minorities to be the most extreme, since they haven't triumphed and taken over power from the infidel yet? Whereas these communities tend to be relatively moderate. Or let me guess, this is where your 'victory through taqqiya' meme kicks in right?


This hypothetical is not meaningless Gandalf, which is probably why you are so evasive. If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Also, I am not sure where you got your "logic" from. Not my posts.

The point about Muslims winning and Nazis losing is that the Muslims got to impose Islam on a lot more people than the Nazis did, so there is now a much greater effort at putting a positive spin on Islam than there is for Nazism, because it is the apparatus of state in a big chunk of the world. Partly directed inward at their own population, partly directed outward at the infidel. Greg has internalised this effort. There are also a lot more otherwise decent people who don't really have a choice. That is not you of course. You chose to adopt Islam, and as far as I can tell you came up with the mindless collective of treacherous Jews meme all by yourself.

Goebbels would have been proud.


He's got you there, G. You've shown how you didn't come up with the Mindless Collective of Treacherous Jews meme. You had your annual discussion about this just last week, no?

FD, however, can only see so far. As far as he can see, you must have invented this meme.

It's all a matter of perspective, you see.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #21 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 2:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 12:17pm:
this hypothetical is not meaningless Gandalf


Yeah it is.

You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population, and then launched their campaign to "nazify" the world - ala Muhammad and the caliphate.

Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end. Nazi efforts to indoctrinate the population into basically 'changing' their religion from christian to nazi was laughed out of court, and the nazis quickly gave up. Far from an actual religion that permeated ordinary people's personal and spiritual lives (like Islam), nazism was more like a liberal party gone really bad, elected to government, and then quickly dismantled all the institutions that protected democracy. If that happened here, we wouldn't suddenly call the Australian population "liberalists" or whatever - even if our government forced us on a reckless and ultimately self destructive campaign of military conquest.

Thats the clear difference with Islam. Even if you could make the case that there were "Hitler-like" leaders who dragged their nations into reckless warfare, you can't deny that there existed in society a deeply rooted religion that transcended politics - that deeply permeated into culture, personal behaviour and beliefs - in a way that nazism didn't even come close. Again, the obvious and indisputable proof is that German society under nazis was still staunchly christian, while Islamic societies were staunchly Islamic. Any attempts at comparison should just end right there and then.

To put it simply, Islamic nations were/are full of muslims - however "Nazi nations", were not full of nazis - they were full of christians. And it was christians who drove the engines of the nazi war - whether it was ordinary workers who worked the munition factories, or foot soldiers in the Wehrmacht. In only extremely rare cases would they have been motivated to help the nazis out of love and devotion to the nazi "religion" - in almost all cases it was a sense of duty and loyalty to their country - their very christian country.

So what would I expect to happen to actual nazis had they "won" (whatever that entails)? I believe the grown-ups would have entered the fray and told the Nazis "thank you very much, but we'll take it from here". It probably would have required Hitler to die first, and after that cult figure had gone, the rest of the nazis probably would probably lose interest/faith in whatever tenets count as their religion, and melted back into normal, conservative, christian German society. Who knows really. The point here though is that had Germany won, it would have been a *GERMAN" victory, won on the back of German Christians - and therefore the legacy would be handed to German christians, not nazis.
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Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #22 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 2:33pm
 
@ Reply #7 - Yesterday at 5:20pm

I think there is more to it that the little bit you cited e.g.:

Rights of Non-Muslims in an Islamic State

The Jizya (tribute)

Jizya literally means penalty. It is a protection tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic regimes, confirming their legal status. Paying the Jizya is a symbol of humiliation and submission because Dhimmi are not regarded as citizens of the Islamic state although they are, in most cases, natives to the country. Such an attitude alienates the Dhimmi from being an essential part of the community. How can a Dhimmi feel at home in his own land, among his own people, and with his own government, when he knows that the Jizya, which he pays, is a symbol of humiliation and submission?
According to Muslim jurists, the following legal ordinances must be enforced on Dhimmi(Christians and Jews alike) who reside among Muslims:
1) Dhimmi are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues. They are allowed to renovate old churches or houses of worship provided they do not allow to add any new construction. "Old churches" are those which existed prior to Islamic conquests and are included in a peace accord by Muslims. Construction of any church, temple, or synagogue in the Arab Peninsula (Saudi Arabia) is prohibited. It is the land of the Prophet and only Islam should prevail there. Yet, Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses of worship in any land they conquer.

2) Dhimmi are not allowed to pray or read their sacred books out loud at home or in churches, lest Muslims hear their prayers.

3) Dhimmi are not allowed to print their religious books or sell them in public places and markets. They are allowed to publish and sell them among their own people, in their churches and temples.

4) Dhimmi are not allowed to install the cross on their houses or churches since it is a symbol of infidelity.

5) Dhimmi are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and magazines.

6) Dhimmi are not allowed to congregate in the streets during their religious festivals; rather, each must quietly make his way to his church or temple.

7) Dhimmi are not allowed to join the army unless there is indispensable need for them in which case they are not allowed to assume leadership positions but are considered mercenaries.

Once a person becomes a Muslim, he cannot recant. If he does, he will be warned first, then he will be given three days to reconsider and repent. If he persists in his apostasy, his wife is required to divorce him, his property is confiscated, and his children are taken away from him. He is not allowed to remarry. Instead, he should be taken to court and sentenced to death. If he repents, he may return to his wife and children or remarry.

According to the Hanifites an apostate female is not allowed to get married. She must spend time in meditation in order to return to Islam. If she does not repent or recant, she will not be sentenced to death, but she is to be persecuted, beaten and jailed
until she dies. Other schools of Shari`a demand her death.

A non-Muslim wishing to become a Muslim is encouraged to do so and anyone, even a father or a mother, who attempts to stop him, may be punished. However, anyone who makes an effort to proselytize a Muslim to any other faith may face punishment.

Marriage and Children
A Muslim male can marry a Dhimmi girl, but a Dhimmi man is not allowed to marry a Muslim girl. If a woman embraces Islam and wants to get married, her non-Muslim father does not have the authority to give her away to her bridegroom. She must be given away by a Muslim guardian.

If one parent is a Muslim, children must be raised as Muslims. If the father is a Dhimmi and his wife converts to Islam, she must get a divorce; then she will have the right of custody of her child. Some fundamentalist schools indicate that a Muslim husband has the right to confine his Dhimmi wife to her home and restrain her from going to her own house of worship.

The Witness of Dhimmi
Dhimmi cannot testify against Muslims. They can only testify against other Zimmis or Musta'min. Their oaths are not considered valid in an Islamic court. According to the Shari`a, a Dhimmi is not even qualified to be under oath.

Political Rights and Duties
Some … “schools of the Shari`a which hold that non-Muslims are not allowed to assume any position which might bestow on them any authority over any Muslim. A position of sovereignty demands the implementation of Islamic ideology. It is alleged that a non-Muslim (regardless of his ability, sincerity, and loyalty to his country) cannot and would not work faithfully to achieve the ideological and political goals of Islam.

Business World
The political arena and the official public sectors are not the only area in which non-Muslims are not allowed to assume a position of authority.

Muslims and Dhimmis
Relationships between Muslims and Dhimmis are classified in two categories: what is forbidden and what is allowable.


Now you karnal may find the above personally O.K.

I on the other hand find it infrangible proof that muslims are absolutely no better than nazis.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #23 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 2:46pm
 
No, Moses, I was wondering about your other post. It was most benign.

Like your good self.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #24 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 3:07pm
 
You genuinely can't see that the two posts (one ending in continued in next post, the other starting with continued from last post) are meant to be read and understood together?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #25 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 3:19pm
 
moses wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 3:07pm:
You genuinely can't see that the two posts (one ending in continued in next post, the other starting with continued from last post) are meant to be read and understood together?


No, I can't, Moses. Are you aware of what you posted?

Never mind. Let's blame Moslems regardless. And remember:

Moslem == a follower of Islam.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #26 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 3:22pm
 
I'm well aware that I posted proof , muslims are no different to nazis.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #27 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:29pm
 
Quote:
You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population


It was a question Gandalf. I was asking you what your version would be. You are creating an aweful lot of alternative history narratives in your efforts to avoid answering it. Here it is again for you: If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Do you consider the distinction between ideology and accident of history to be meaningless?

Quote:
Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end.


What if there had not been an end?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #28 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 9:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:29pm:
Quote:
You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population


It was a question Gandalf. I was asking you what your version would be. You are creating an aweful lot of alternative history narratives in your efforts to avoid answering it. Here it is again for you: If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Do you consider the distinction between ideology and accident of history to be meaningless?

Quote:
Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end.


What if there had not been an end?


Asked G a question, did you, FD?

Did you get an answer?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #29 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 9:52pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 9:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:29pm:
Quote:
You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population


It was a question Gandalf. I was asking you what your version would be. You are creating an aweful lot of alternative history narratives in your efforts to avoid answering it. Here it is again for you: If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Do you consider the distinction between ideology and accident of history to be meaningless?

Quote:
Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end.


What if there had not been an end?


Asked G a question, did you, FD?

Did you get an answer?


Sorry Karnal, I will add it to your thread soon enough.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #30 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 10:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 9:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 9:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:29pm:
Quote:
You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population


It was a question Gandalf. I was asking you what your version would be. You are creating an aweful lot of alternative history narratives in your efforts to avoid answering it. Here it is again for you: If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Do you consider the distinction between ideology and accident of history to be meaningless?

Quote:
Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end.


What if there had not been an end?


Asked G a question, did you, FD?

Did you get an answer?


Sorry Karnal, I will add it to your thread soon enough.


Sounds sinister. What do you think you'll add?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #31 - Jan 18th, 2019 at 10:37pm
 
Oh, of course. You won't say.

Could it be something like this?

Quote:
Were they a Mindless Collective?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #32 - Jan 21st, 2019 at 9:50am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:29pm:
Quote:
You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population


It was a question Gandalf. I was asking you what your version would be. You are creating an aweful lot of alternative history narratives in your efforts to avoid answering it. Here it is again for you: If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Do you consider the distinction between ideology and accident of history to be meaningless?

Quote:
Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end.


What if there had not been an end?


As usual you don't pay attention.

I clearly gave my 'version' of what would happen had the Nazis "won" (however you define that). The Nazis were always on borrowed time - ruling only at the behest of the christian establishment that still very much dominated the wehrmacht. I have no doubt that total war made it easier for the Nazis to hold on to power. Yet even so there was a clear and almost open schism between the nazi ideologues and the establishment - which was laid bear for all to see during the 1944 bomb plot, and the subsequent purging of the military.

But as I said before, Hitler's armies didn't overrun most of Europe on the back of some ideological fervor known as "Nazism", it was mostly (as far as the military who did the actual overrunning were concerned) just a continuation of traditional, grievances, particularly in relation to a sense of unfinished business after WWI. Not that you could really come up with a coherent or tangible definition of what Nazi ideology even was, let alone inspire people to think its worth fighting and dying for. This is of course in stark contrast to the early muslims - whose culture and society was very much ammenable to the spiritual renewal to their existing religion that Muhammad and Islam offered, which many welcomed as the next logical progression of their existing religion. And it was such a clear and simplified message (one God, one book) compared to what they were trying to get their head around before. Thus it can be said that the religion itself deeply moved the early muslims and inspired them in their conquests - but the same cannot be even remotely said of the Germans who conquered for the nazis. The vast majority of whom were still deeply attached to their judeo-christian traditions and beliefs.

This reality of German culture, with its deep judeo-Christian roots, would not have suddenly changed had the Nazis won. As I said before, any German victory would have been won on the back of tradition German (christian) culture and values - and it would be that culture that would earn the legacy of such a victory - not the pretender Nazis. Nazism may have lingered while Hitler remained alive - in deference to the cult status he enjoyed, but as soon as he died (which would have been soon, as he was quite the physical wreck by the end), the adults would have taken back control in fairly short order - either by force or by default as the Nazis inevitably implode upon themselves.
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« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2019 at 9:57am by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #33 - Jan 21st, 2019 at 6:51pm
 
Quote:
The Nazis were always on borrowed time - ruling only at the behest of the christian establishment that still very much dominated the wehrmacht.


So the Nazis were actually a conspiracy of the Christian "establishment"?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #34 - Jan 21st, 2019 at 7:58pm
 
on what bizarro alternative universe do you get that from what I wrote FD?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #35 - Jan 22nd, 2019 at 12:05pm
 
From the bit I quoted. Would you like to elaborate on what you actually meant?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #36 - Jan 22nd, 2019 at 3:04pm
 
behest = 'at the grace of...'

a conspiracy would necessarily mean that the establishment created him and pulled his strings - something which I didn't even come close to suggesting. But once he was there (taking everyone by surprise), they figured it wasn't worth the effort to get rid of him - particularly when his objectives was so closely aligned with theirs (the "imperishable Reich"). But rest assured, Hitler was in control, and no one was pulling his strings.

The only point you should be worried about here is, that unlike Islam, Hitler wasn't inculcating the German population with an entire cultural/religious transformation such that the German people could no longer be culturally recognised as "Christians". As I said, half hearted Nazi efforts to indoctrinate the population with their bizarre and incoherent "religion", was laughed out of court.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #37 - Jan 22nd, 2019 at 5:21pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 21st, 2019 at 9:50am:
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 7:29pm:
Quote:
You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population


It was a question Gandalf. I was asking you what your version would be. You are creating an aweful lot of alternative history narratives in your efforts to avoid answering it. Here it is again for you: If the Nazis had won, do you think there would be a higher proportion of 'good' ones today?

Do you consider the distinction between ideology and accident of history to be meaningless?

Quote:
Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end.


What if there had not been an end?


As usual you don't pay attention.

I clearly gave my 'version' of what would happen had the Nazis "won" (however you define that). The Nazis were always on borrowed time - ruling only at the behest of the christian establishment that still very much dominated the wehrmacht. I have no doubt that total war made it easier for the Nazis to hold on to power. Yet even so there was a clear and almost open schism between the nazi ideologues and the establishment - which was laid bear for all to see during the 1944 bomb plot, and the subsequent purging of the military.

But as I said before, Hitler's armies didn't overrun most of Europe on the back of some ideological fervor known as "Nazism", it was mostly (as far as the military who did the actual overrunning were concerned) just a continuation of traditional, grievances, particularly in relation to a sense of unfinished business after WWI. Not that you could really come up with a coherent or tangible definition of what Nazi ideology even was, let alone inspire people to think its worth fighting and dying for. This is of course in stark contrast to the early muslims - whose culture and society was very much ammenable to the spiritual renewal to their existing religion that Muhammad and Islam offered, which many welcomed as the next logical progression of their existing religion. And it was such a clear and simplified message (one God, one book) compared to what they were trying to get their head around before. Thus it can be said that the religion itself deeply moved the early muslims and inspired them in their conquests - but the same cannot be even remotely said of the Germans who conquered for the nazis. The vast majority of whom were still deeply attached to their judeo-christian traditions and beliefs.

This reality of German culture, with its deep judeo-Christian roots, would not have suddenly changed had the Nazis won. As I said before, any German victory would have been won on the back of tradition German (christian) culture and values - and it would be that culture that would earn the legacy of such a victory - not the pretender Nazis. Nazism may have lingered while Hitler remained alive - in deference to the cult status he enjoyed, but as soon as he died (which would have been soon, as he was quite the physical wreck by the end), the adults would have taken back control in fairly short order - either by force or by default as the Nazis inevitably implode upon themselves.



This is distortion in the usual arse-covering manner.  By this reckoning communism in Russia was also a deeply rooted in judeo-christianity. The Russians were deeply religious before 1917 therefore the Bolsheviks were always on borrowed time and Russia is now back to being deeply religious.  And Chinese communism and the Great Leap Forward was deeply rooted in - what? Confucianism?  Capitalism is deeply rooted in Christianity, as is the scientific revolution and liberalism. They all exist at the behest of the christian establishment, which is the ONLY establishment.

So everything is the same-same but different. Except Islam. Fabbo.

I don't think Islam offered religious and spiritual renewal. It has always been far too simplistic for that. Circling a rock en masse and pelting pillars with pebbles is not exactly spiritual renewal.
Islam offered material rewards in this world and the next and an outlet for resentment. It appeals to greed, not goodness and love and tolerance.



The reality is that dictators sideline everyone and Hitler was no puppet to anyone before or after 1933.  The industrialists or the Church may have thought he was but the evidence is clear, he was not.
Bonhoffer said before the war: Christians in Germany will have to face the terrible alternative of either willing the defeat of their nation in order that Christian civilization may survive or willing the victory of their nation and thereby destroying civilization."  This is not Nazism 'at the behest of the christian establishment" by any stretch.

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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #38 - Jan 22nd, 2019 at 7:35pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
The Russians were deeply religious before 1917 therefore the Bolsheviks were always on borrowed time and Russia is now back to being deeply religious. 


Well thats pretty much spot on Frank. Except its not just 'being deeply religious' (the extent of which I'm not entirely sure of in today's Russia - though its almost certainly greater than in most western countries), its the whole judeo-christian cultural aspect, which was dominant before 1917, and has returned to dominance once again since the fall of communism. And I'm pretty sure an examination of bolshevik rule would reveal traditional judeo-christian culture stubbornly hanging on pretty strongly amongst the Russian population.

Frank wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
And Chinese communism and the Great Leap Forward was deeply rooted in - what? Confucianism?


China is an interesting one. Someone I know who has spent a lot of time living in China lamented to me how communism has so successfully transformed the traditional confucianist culture of caring and sharing into one of cut-throat selfishness (ironic given its supposed to be socialism). Evidently the 'cultural revolution', as it were, in China was far more successful under Mao and co than it was in either Germany under the Nazis or the Russians under the Bolsheviks.

Frank wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
I don't think Islam offered religious and spiritual renewal. It has always been far too simplistic for that.


actually I think simplicity is the key to offering the most effective spiritual renewal.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #39 - Jan 22nd, 2019 at 8:04pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 2:14pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 18th, 2019 at 12:17pm:
this hypothetical is not meaningless Gandalf


Yeah it is.

You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population, and then launched their campaign to "nazify" the world - ala Muhammad and the caliphate.

Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end. Nazi efforts to indoctrinate the population into basically 'changing' their religion from christian to nazi was laughed out of court, and the nazis quickly gave up. Far from an actual religion that permeated ordinary people's personal and spiritual lives (like Islam), nazism was more like a liberal party gone really bad, elected to government, and then quickly dismantled all the institutions that protected democracy. If that happened here, we wouldn't suddenly call the Australian population "liberalists" or whatever - even if our government forced us on a reckless and ultimately self destructive campaign of military conquest.

Thats the clear difference with Islam. Even if you could make the case that there were "Hitler-like" leaders who dragged their nations into reckless warfare, you can't deny that there existed in society a deeply rooted religion that transcended politics - that deeply permeated into culture, personal behaviour and beliefs - in a way that nazism didn't even come close. Again, the obvious and indisputable proof is that German society under nazis was still staunchly christian, while Islamic societies were staunchly Islamic. Any attempts at comparison should just end right there and then.

To put it simply, Islamic nations were/are full of muslims - however "Nazi nations", were not full of nazis - they were full of christians. And it was christians who drove the engines of the nazi war - whether it was ordinary workers who worked the munition factories, or foot soldiers in the Wehrmacht. In only extremely rare cases would they have been motivated to help the nazis out of love and devotion to the nazi "religion" - in almost all cases it was a sense of duty and loyalty to their country - their very christian country.

So what would I expect to happen to actual nazis had they "won" (whatever that entails)? I believe the grown-ups would have entered the fray and told the Nazis "thank you very much, but we'll take it from here". It probably would have required Hitler to die first, and after that cult figure had gone, the rest of the nazis probably would probably lose interest/faith in whatever tenets count as their religion, and melted back into normal, conservative, christian German society. Who knows really. The point here though is that had Germany won, it would have been a *GERMAN" victory, won on the back of German Christians - and therefore the legacy would be handed to German christians, not nazis.


How can you say that the ideology of Nazism didn't permeate into culture, personal behaviour and beliefs? What in fact motivated ordinary people to commit the most heinous atrocities and in many instances collaborate with the Nazi agenda? Was it not the ideology?

You're right in the sense that Nazism wasn't a religion, but if the Nazis had won (again, whatever that entails), it's possible that a religion (or more accurately, a cult) might have emerged after Hitler's death with the dictator being deemed a Prophet of God. In fact I watched on some documentary that there's a fringe cult in Argentina who worship Hitler and believe that he ascended into heaven and was reborn to 'conquer another world'. It's not inconceivable that such a cult or worship could've been founded after his death.

And I reject the notion of 'Nazi nations were full of Nazis - simply because not enough time had passed to firmly entrench Nazism (or fascism) into those societies. Religions have had hundreds of years to take hold of societies.

Assuming that Nazism was still the prevailing regime in Germany today, undoubtedly there would've been changes to the Nazi ideology. It would've undergone 'peaceful' transitions. You'd have most Germans who were peaceful Nazis, but a militant minority who were 'Mein kampf-bashers and literalists' going around and murdering people in the name of Hitler. Of course, the Nazi government might condemn these extremists, but the extremists simply say: "we're following the example of our Prophet Hitler."
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #40 - Jan 22nd, 2019 at 8:43pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 8:04pm:
How can you say that the ideology of Nazism didn't permeate into culture, personal behaviour and beliefs? What in fact motivated ordinary people to commit the most heinous atrocities and in many instances collaborate with the Nazi agenda? Was it not the ideology?


our understanding of psychology gives us more than enough explanations for why ordinary people commit heinous atrocities - without needing to worry about the inherent appeal of Nazism. We have plenty of clinical replications to know that you don't need Nazi ideology to make people act atrociously against fellow humans - Robber's Cave, Milgram's obedience study, Stamford Prison experiment - to name but a few.

How do we know that nazism didn't permeate German culture in any meaningful sense? Study the history of German society during the time and it becomes patently obvious. There was a lot of fear, a lot of obedience and a lot of resignation to authority - but what there clearly wasn't was an abundance of ideological fervor - outside the tiny minority of party faithful. In contrast, christian traditions remained strong, the churches remained and continued to influence the lives of ordinary Germans. Its not unlike the extent to which baathist ideology permeated a society deeply rooted in Islamic tradition - which was precious little.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #41 - Jan 23rd, 2019 at 12:05am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 7:35pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
The Russians were deeply religious before 1917 therefore the Bolsheviks were always on borrowed time and Russia is now back to being deeply religious. 


Well thats pretty much spot on Frank. Except its not just 'being deeply religious' (the extent of which I'm not entirely sure of in today's Russia - though its almost certainly greater than in most western countries), its the whole judeo-christian cultural aspect, which was dominant before 1917, and has returned to dominance once again since the fall of communism. And I'm pretty sure an examination of bolshevik rule would reveal traditional judeo-christian culture stubbornly hanging on pretty strongly amongst the Russian population.

Frank wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
And Chinese communism and the Great Leap Forward was deeply rooted in - what? Confucianism?


China is an interesting one. Someone I know who has spent a lot of time living in China lamented to me how communism has so successfully transformed the traditional confucianist culture of caring and sharing into one of cut-throat selfishness (ironic given its supposed to be socialism). Evidently the 'cultural revolution', as it were, in China was far more successful under Mao and co than it was in either Germany under the Nazis or the Russians under the Bolsheviks.

Frank wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
I don't think Islam offered religious and spiritual renewal. It has always been far too simplistic for that.


actually I think simplicity is the key to offering the most effective spiritual renewal.


Quite so. Interesting also that the religions of Christianity and Islam are apparently the fastest growing religions in a most secular country,: China.

No Buddhism or Confucianism there anymore. Perhaps they look to the religions of the Middle East as more exotic than their rationalist Western creed of Marxism, eh?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #42 - Jan 23rd, 2019 at 8:47am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 23rd, 2019 at 12:05am:
Quite so. Interesting also that the religions of Christianity and Islam are apparently the fastest growing religions in a most secular country,: China.

No Buddhism or Confucianism there anymore. Perhaps they look to the religions of the Middle East as more exotic than their rationalist Western creed of Marxism, eh?


Not sure about Islam, but I do know from personal ties that western christian missionaries are running rampant in the country, to which the authorities largely turn a blind eye (proselytizing is officially illegal).
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #43 - Jan 23rd, 2019 at 9:34am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23rd, 2019 at 8:47am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 23rd, 2019 at 12:05am:
Quite so. Interesting also that the religions of Christianity and Islam are apparently the fastest growing religions in a most secular country,: China.

No Buddhism or Confucianism there anymore. Perhaps they look to the religions of the Middle East as more exotic than their rationalist Western creed of Marxism, eh?


Not sure about Islam, but I do know from personal ties that western christian missionaries are running rampant in the country, to which the authorities largely turn a blind eye (proselytizing is officially illegal).


In Sydney, the Mormons are always prowling around Chinatown.

Yes, two strapping Americans in identical white short sleeved shirts and black ties speaking to the Chinese in Mandarin.

Globalisation, innit.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #44 - Jan 23rd, 2019 at 9:42am
 
Indeed. Asian communities are very much the new frontier for missionaries. The person I mentioned previously who is involved in this recently returned from China, and now does God's good work in Australia - but his congregation is entirely asian - mostly Korean, Taiwanese and Chinese.

Even in the west, they've basically given up on whites.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #45 - Jan 23rd, 2019 at 9:49am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23rd, 2019 at 9:42am:
Indeed. Asian communities are very much the new frontier for missionaries. The person I mentioned previously who is involved in this recently returned from China, and now does God's good work in Australia - but his congregation is entirely asian - mostly Korean, Taiwanese and Chinese.

Even in the west, they've basically given up on whites.


My local Anglican Church - a nice old sandstone cathedral - has two services on Sunday, one in Mandarin and one in Cantonese.

The Baptist church down the road consists of Tongans in grass skirts. The Seventh Day Adventists are a mixed batch. Then there's the Lebanese Coptic and the Ukrainian Orthodox, all within a stone's throw.

It is a jolly world, no?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #46 - Jan 23rd, 2019 at 12:27pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 3:04pm:
behest = 'at the grace of...'

a conspiracy would necessarily mean that the establishment created him and pulled his strings - something which I didn't even come close to suggesting. But once he was there (taking everyone by surprise), they figured it wasn't worth the effort to get rid of him - particularly when his objectives was so closely aligned with theirs (the "imperishable Reich"). But rest assured, Hitler was in control, and no one was pulling his strings.

The only point you should be worried about here is, that unlike Islam, Hitler wasn't inculcating the German population with an entire cultural/religious transformation such that the German people could no longer be culturally recognised as "Christians". As I said, half hearted Nazi efforts to indoctrinate the population with their bizarre and incoherent "religion", was laughed out of court.


Who are "they"?

And where are you getting this from? Is this what passes for history in Muslim schools?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #47 - Jan 25th, 2019 at 12:17pm
 
Gandalf, if it is not a conspiracy theory, you won't have any trouble identifying who "they" are, right?

Also, how prevalent do you think this view is among Muslims? Or did you just make it up yourself?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #48 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:18am
 
"they" was spelled out pretty clearly FD. Its the conservative christian establishment. In Germany it was still dominated by the Prussian 'Junker' class.

Its not a sinister muslim conspiracy to understand that swastika clad street thugs weren't going to take over the entire government without at least some tacit approval from the establishment who had controlled the reigns of not only the reigns of power throughout the German states evolution, but also its society and culture. Study Hitler's pathway to power - he never gained an absolute majority in parliament and was refused the presidency until sections of the catholic centre party lobbied for it on his behalf. Crucially, when Hitler set about dismantling parliamentary democracy, he couldn't have done it without the cooperation of the representatives of the establishment (mainly the catholic centre) in the parliament that he was destroying.

Even after that the power structures representing the junker class - especially the wehrmacht - could really have pulled the plug at any time, either causing the collapse of the nazi regime, or at least making life very difficult for them - to the point of making it untenable. The sheer scale of the 1944 plot attests to how precarious was the hold on power Hitler had - not so much the threat of the plot itself, but the fact that so many people knew about it and either turned a blind eye or lay low and hedged their bets. The purge that followed didn't even come close to uncovering the extent of knowledge amongst the wehrmacht. And we're only talking about a plot in which most members of the (non-Nazi) military didn't even support, yet not once did anyone blow the whistle. Imagine a plot in which all the military were united behind.

Muslims can read history books too. Who knew?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #49 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:44am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23rd, 2019 at 9:42am:
Indeed. Asian communities are very much the new frontier for missionaries. The person I mentioned previously who is involved in this recently returned from China, and now does God's good work in Australia - but his congregation is entirely asian - mostly Korean, Taiwanese and Chinese.

Even in the west, they've basically given up on whites.


They are doing God's work? Lying to people is God's work? This explains a lot about your warped view of reality.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #50 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:49am
 
issuevoter wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:44am:
They are doing God's work? Lying to people is God's work?


Now you've lost me issue...
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #51 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 7:36pm
 
Quote:
"they" was spelled out pretty clearly FD. Its the conservative christian establishment. In Germany it was still dominated by the Prussian 'Junker' class.


That is a vague class reference Gandalf. Hardly spelling it out clearly.

Quote:
Its not a sinister muslim conspiracy to understand that swastika clad street thugs weren't going to take over the entire government without at least some tacit approval from the establishment


The Nazis were initially voted into power Gandalf. Why do you feel the need to invoke a "christian establishment" to explain that?

Quote:
who had controlled the reigns of not only the reigns of power throughout the German states evolution, but also its society and culture


Ah. Not a conspiracy theory at all eh? Just a faceless "establishment" pulling the strings from behind closed doors?

Quote:
Study Hitler's pathway to power - he never gained an absolute majority in parliament and was refused the presidency until sections of the catholic centre party lobbied for it on his behalf. Crucially, when Hitler set about dismantling parliamentary democracy, he couldn't have done it without the cooperation of the representatives of the establishment (mainly the catholic centre) in the parliament that he was destroying.


So far every vague reference you have made to who "they" are could be replaced by "members of the Nazi party".

Quote:
Even after that the power structures representing the junker class - especially the wehrmacht


So the German military was a "power structure representing the junker class", but this is not a conspiracy theory?

Quote:
And we're only talking about a plot in which most members of the (non-Nazi) military didn't even support, yet not once did anyone blow the whistle.


How do you know this?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #52 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:30pm
 
Gandalf are you saying you are getting this from history books? Can you give an example?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #53 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:30pm:
Gandalf are you saying you are getting this from history books? Can you give an example?


You know, if you make another 10 posts all loaded with silly questions, I'm sure Gandalf will get the memo and magically jump onto OzPol.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #54 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:35pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:34pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:30pm:
Gandalf are you saying you are getting this from history books? Can you give an example?


You know, if you make another 10 posts all loaded with silly questions, I'm sure Gandalf will get the memo and magically jump onto OzPol.


you could search fd's last 100 posts and if they're not all loaded up with silly question then I'll be gobsmacked.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #55 - Jan 30th, 2019 at 11:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 7:36pm:
Quote:
"they" was spelled out pretty clearly FD. Its the conservative christian establishment. In Germany it was still dominated by the Prussian 'Junker' class.


That is a vague class reference Gandalf. Hardly spelling it out clearly.

Quote:
Its not a sinister muslim conspiracy to understand that swastika clad street thugs weren't going to take over the entire government without at least some tacit approval from the establishment


The Nazis were initially voted into power Gandalf.


Freeeedom, innit.

The Nazis could have been the next South Korea too, no?

You know, like Saudi Arabia.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #56 - Jan 31st, 2019 at 2:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:30pm:
Gandalf are you saying you are getting this from history books? Can you give an example?


any of them. Take your pick.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #57 - Jan 31st, 2019 at 9:09pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31st, 2019 at 2:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:30pm:
Gandalf are you saying you are getting this from history books? Can you give an example?


any of them. Take your pick.


Look, maybe just stick to Wikipedia, okay? Just the bits FD agrees with.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #58 - Jan 31st, 2019 at 9:14pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31st, 2019 at 2:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2019 at 8:30pm:
Gandalf are you saying you are getting this from history books? Can you give an example?


any of them. Take your pick.


Do only the ones you pick from Muslim schools say this nonsense? Is that why you are so coy about where it actually comes from?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #59 - Feb 1st, 2019 at 3:03pm
 
Tell me FD, have you actually given any thought to what a more plausible explanation is, or do you just like disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing - and getting in a few "mindless muslim" jibes in for good measure?

Do you think that everyone overnight just became happy, believing and fanatical nazis who swallowed Nazi ideology hook line and sinker - and that fear and good old convenience had nothing to do with it? Do you really think that a centuries old ruling class who controlled most of the wealth just meekly fell into line and overnight became an irrelevance - because of what? Nazi ideology was just too irresistable to them?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #60 - Feb 2nd, 2019 at 9:16am
 
We haven't gotten to plausible yet. We are still at the vague conspiracy theory stage. I don't recall ever coming across vague references to the "christian establishment" or any other such conspiracy nonsense in legitimate textbooks.

Where are you getting these history books from Gandalf? A Muslim school?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #61 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 10:17am
 
Isn't it funny how every time we get to a particular interpretation of events that FD hasn't heard of, it turns into a "must be a sinister muslim conspiracy" line of attack.

Yes FD, talking about a conservative "Christian establishment" in reference to the elites of an early 20th century western European society is just unheard of, and plainly ridiculous isn't it  Roll Eyes
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #62 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 12:50pm
 
What textbooks are you getting this from Gandalf? Have you ever seen a textbook outside of a Muslim school blame the "Christian Establishment" for the Nazis?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #63 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 1:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 12:50pm:
What textbooks are you getting this from Gandalf? Have you ever seen a textbook outside of a Muslim school blame the "Christian Establishment" for the Nazis?


Nazism: The breaking of the Christian Cross (Swastika) and renounciation of Religion (like Jews) out of Europe.

The Moslems will do to the French (Christians), what the Germans did to the Jews.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #64 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 2:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 12:50pm:
outside of a Muslim school


You literally can't help yourself can you?

Here's a challenge - try just one day of replying to me without resorting to nasty personal attacks.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #65 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:27pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 2:57pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 12:50pm:
outside of a Muslim school


You literally can't help yourself can you?

Here's a challenge - try just one day of replying to me without resorting to nasty personal attacks.


You suggested I look in a textbook as a way of evading a question. Not sure about you, but I generally associate textbooks with schools Gandalf.

Have you ever seen a mainstream textbook blame the "Christian establishment" for the Nazis?

Where did you actually get this from?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #66 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 9:41am
 
Get back to me when you're done acting like a toddler FD.

Where do I "get" that a christian conservative elite held sway over an early 20th century western European society?

Gee wizz you got me there FD, I mean its such a ludicrous concept, it must be a sinister muslim conspiracy right?  Roll Eyes

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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #67 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:05pm
 
Germany was a democracy when Hitler first came to power.

The term you used was "Christian Establishment". Have you ever seen a legitimate textbook blame the christian establishment for the Nazis?

So far the closest you have come to identifying this "establishment" is a vague reference to a historical elite controlling the military.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #68 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:35pm
 
I love the way FD dresses up his willful ignorance of all things history - as me being evasive and vague because I won't spoonfeed him the most basic facts of history.

He's playing exactly the same game in the "what do you mean stuff happens in Africa??" thread.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #69 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:48pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:35pm:
I love the way FD dresses up his willful ignorance of all things history - as me being evasive and vague because I won't spoonfeed him the most basic facts of history.

He's playing exactly the same game in the "what do you mean stuff happens in Africa??" thread.


Yes, G, but maybe FD's curious. Have you considered that?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #70 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 8:06pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:35pm:
I love the way FD dresses up his willful ignorance of all things history - as me being evasive and vague because I won't spoonfeed him the most basic facts of history.

He's playing exactly the same game in the "what do you mean stuff happens in Africa??" thread.


Can you give an example of an actual textbook that blames the Nazis on the "Christian Establishment"?

Did I guess right that you read it in a Muslim school?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #71 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 12:20pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 8:06pm:
Can you give an example of an actual textbook that blames the Nazis on the "Christian Establishment"?


FD demands some proof that Germany was a christian society, essentially run by christian-conservative elites, without whose accommodation and tacit approval, the nazis would never have gained a foothold.

Its is in the same vein as "can you give an example of a news outlet that covers bad stuff in Africa?"

Next week he'll be demanding evidence supporting the devious muslim conspiracy that Athens is the capital of Greece, or some such.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #72 - Feb 14th, 2019 at 12:23pm
 
It's a simple question Gandalf. You told me to look pick a textbook.

Can you give an example of an actual textbook that blames the Nazis on the "Christian Establishment"?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #73 - Feb 14th, 2019 at 1:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 14th, 2019 at 12:23pm:
It's a simple question Gandalf. You told me to look pick a textbook.


Its an even simpler instruction.

Evidently beyond you though.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #74 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 12:54pm
 
Gandalf if this is your own crackpot conspiracy theory then you should own it and stop pretending that any textbook we pick up (outside of a Muslim school?) will blame some nebulous "Christian establishment" for the Nazis.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #75 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 1:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 12:54pm:
stop pretending that any textbook we pick up


Have you tried yet?

How can you know FD, if you never bother to actually read any?

I'm actually starting to wonder if you've studied *any* nazi Germany history.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #76 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:25pm
 
Yes I studied Nazi Germany.

Are you actually suggesting that most textbooks on the matter blame the Nazis on the Christian Establishment?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #77 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:33pm
 
blame isn't the word I used FD.

Again, the pitfalls if refusing to refer to what I actually said.

Since you studied nazi Germany, you'll have no problem understanding the type of class and constituency Hindenburg and other key figures who didn't stand in the way of Hitler, like von Papen represented.

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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #78 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:37pm
 
Would you care to be slightly less evasive and suggest what words the textbooks would actually use? Would a legitimate textbook from a non-Muslim school use a term like the "Christian establishment" in any way at all?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #79 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:37pm:
Would you care to be slightly less evasive


I'll do even better, I'll refer you to what I actually said. Try actually read it for once, and preferably comprehend it, and it will all make sense, I promise.

Quote:
from a non-Muslim school


OK, you're actually starting to really piss me off with this.

Treat me with some damn respect and desist from these nasty, petty personal attacks, and you'll find you'll get a better response  Smiley
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #80 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:44pm
 
I've just spent six pages trying to get you to answer a simple question - where did you get this "Christian establishment" crap from. And now you ask me to show you respect? Stop evading. If you are claiming it is from a textbook, say so.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #81 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
And now you ask me to show you respect?


Its not hard to desist from personal attacks FD, thats all I ask.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #82 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:52pm
 
It is not a personal attack Gandalf. It seems plausible to me that Muslim schools are feeding children agitational propaganda that vaguely links the Nazis with some kind of subversive "Christian establishment". This is entirely consistent with your parroting of the claim followed by an inability to back it up, explain what it means, or even say where it came from. I am not going to withdraw the question because you do the hypersensitive offended Muslim routine. You brought textbooks into the debate, not me.

When you said textbooks, where you referring to textbooks in Muslim schools?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #83 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
I've just spent six pages trying to get you to answer a simple question - where did you get this "Christian establishment" crap from.


Gosh, I've only spent the same number of pages trying to explain.

Germany was united largely through the military and economic dominance of the Prussian aristocracy - a 'conservative Christian' ruling class if you will. Sometimes referred to as the "junker" class. These were the people who dominated the offices of power through both the emperorship and the transition to democracy, and continued through the Weimar republic. A brief challenge by the communists and other leftists after WWI was overcome due to a violent crackdown by establishment militias like the Freikorps. In fact if you really want to get deeply into it, the roots of the nazi-establishment cooperation largely stemmed from a common fear of the left - which the nazis swiftly went about destroying as soon as they came to power. Thats not to say the Nazis themselves didn't make enemies of the establishment - they did, as did any establishment figures who threw their lot in with them, most notably Luddendorf. But as they changed their modus operandi from violent putches to legitimate political processes, the establishment became less and less hostile, until eventually they saw them as useful allies - as von Papen did when he lobbied Hindenberg to appoint him chancelor (thinking he could control him). Establishment figures like the former chancelor von Schleicher who refused to fall in line were swiftly removed.

That in a nutshell is the Nazi rise part of the story, the other part is how they retained power. As I mentioned before, the aftermath of the 1944 bomb plot which revealed just how shockingly widespread was the knowledge of the plot within the Wehrmacht, demonstrated just how distinct and independent the old establishment (represented through the Wehrmacht) remained from the Nazi machine. Its almost as if the Wehrmacht preserved itself as a 'state within a state' - or you could even say the other way around, the Nazis were a state within the old Prussian state. Such a powerful force that kept its independence from the Nazis could no doubt have easily dispensed with the Nazi regime if they wished. But of course in a time of total war, there was no apetite to do so. One for all and all for one and all that. Prussian notions of honour and loyalty made turning against your government at a time when the country was under siege from all sides - an unspeakable act of treachery. Notwithstanding von Staffenberg and cohort.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #84 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:17pm
 
Quote:
Gosh, I've only spent the same number of pages trying to explain.


You said you got it from a textbook, then got offended when I asked if it was a textbook from a Muslim school.

Was it?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #85 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:52pm:
It is not a personal attack Gandalf.


It is. And your excuse that you think its "plausible" that sinister muslims teach their children deliberately sinister versions of history is just depraved.

No, you do this all the time. Anything I say that you can't understand or take issue with, you always link it back to my identity as a muslim - no matter how irrelevant it is to Islam. It is textbook 'target the person, not the argument' ad hominem.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #86 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:19pm
 
Quote:
It is. And your excuse that you think its "plausible" that sinister muslims teach their children deliberately sinister versions of history is just depraved.


And yet every single Muslim who has posted here has sprouted sinister versions of history. You are doing the same. But you enver tell us where you learn this crap.

Where did you get the "Christian establishment" stuff from Gandalf?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #87 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:21pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:09pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
I've just spent six pages trying to get you to answer a simple question - where did you get this "Christian establishment" crap from.


Gosh, I've only spent the same number of pages trying to explain.

Germany was united largely through the military and economic dominance of the Prussian aristocracy - a 'conservative Christian' ruling class if you will. Sometimes referred to as the "junker" class. These were the people who dominated the offices of power through both the emperorship and the transition to democracy, and continued through the Weimar republic. A brief challenge by the communists and other leftists after WWI was overcome due to a violent crackdown by establishment militias like the Freikorps. In fact if you really want to get deeply into it, the roots of the nazi-establishment cooperation largely stemmed from a common fear of the left - which the nazis swiftly went about destroying as soon as they came to power. Thats not to say the Nazis themselves didn't make enemies of the establishment - they did, as did any establishment figures who threw their lot in with them, most notably Luddendorf. But as they changed their modus operandi from violent putches to legitimate political processes, the establishment became less and less hostile, until eventually they saw them as useful allies - as von Papen did when he lobbied Hindenberg to appoint him chancelor (thinking he could control him). Establishment figures like the former chancelor von Schleicher who refused to fall in line were swiftly removed.

That in a nutshell is the Nazi rise part of the story, the other part is how they retained power. As I mentioned before, the aftermath of the 1944 bomb plot which revealed just how shockingly widespread was the knowledge of the plot within the Wehrmacht, demonstrated just how distinct and independent the old establishment (represented through the Wehrmacht) remained from the Nazi machine. Its almost as if the Wehrmacht preserved itself as a 'state within a state' - or you could even say the other way around, the Nazis were a state within the old Prussian state. Such a powerful force that kept its independence from the Nazis could no doubt have easily dispensed with the Nazi regime if they wished. But of course in a time of total war, there was no apetite to do so. One for all and all for one and all that. Prussian notions of honour and loyalty made turning against your government at a time when the country was under siege from all sides - an unspeakable act of treachery. Notwithstanding von Staffenberg and cohort.




Soooooo.... where's the Christian angle to the rise of the Nazis, then?

I am not seeing any in your post.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #88 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:21pm
 
In case you have forgotten Gandalf, here it is again:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 21st, 2019 at 9:50am:
I clearly gave my 'version' of what would happen had the Nazis "won" (however you define that). The Nazis were always on borrowed time - ruling only at the behest of the christian establishment that still very much dominated the wehrmacht.


Where did you get this from?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #89 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:17pm:
Quote:
Gosh, I've only spent the same number of pages trying to explain.


You said you got it from a textbook, then got offended when I asked if it was a textbook from a Muslim school.


Gosh I wonder why.  Roll Eyes

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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #90 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:25pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:21pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:09pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
I've just spent six pages trying to get you to answer a simple question - where did you get this "Christian establishment" crap from.


Gosh, I've only spent the same number of pages trying to explain.

Germany was united largely through the military and economic dominance of the Prussian aristocracy - a 'conservative Christian' ruling class if you will. Sometimes referred to as the "junker" class. These were the people who dominated the offices of power through both the emperorship and the transition to democracy, and continued through the Weimar republic. A brief challenge by the communists and other leftists after WWI was overcome due to a violent crackdown by establishment militias like the Freikorps. In fact if you really want to get deeply into it, the roots of the nazi-establishment cooperation largely stemmed from a common fear of the left - which the nazis swiftly went about destroying as soon as they came to power. Thats not to say the Nazis themselves didn't make enemies of the establishment - they did, as did any establishment figures who threw their lot in with them, most notably Luddendorf. But as they changed their modus operandi from violent putches to legitimate political processes, the establishment became less and less hostile, until eventually they saw them as useful allies - as von Papen did when he lobbied Hindenberg to appoint him chancelor (thinking he could control him). Establishment figures like the former chancelor von Schleicher who refused to fall in line were swiftly removed.

That in a nutshell is the Nazi rise part of the story, the other part is how they retained power. As I mentioned before, the aftermath of the 1944 bomb plot which revealed just how shockingly widespread was the knowledge of the plot within the Wehrmacht, demonstrated just how distinct and independent the old establishment (represented through the Wehrmacht) remained from the Nazi machine. Its almost as if the Wehrmacht preserved itself as a 'state within a state' - or you could even say the other way around, the Nazis were a state within the old Prussian state. Such a powerful force that kept its independence from the Nazis could no doubt have easily dispensed with the Nazi regime if they wished. But of course in a time of total war, there was no apetite to do so. One for all and all for one and all that. Prussian notions of honour and loyalty made turning against your government at a time when the country was under siege from all sides - an unspeakable act of treachery. Notwithstanding von Staffenberg and cohort.




Soooooo.... where's the Christian angle to the rise of the Nazis, then?

I am not seeing any in your post.


Actually we veered off track from the original point I was making - as all discussions with FD invariably do.

My original point was that Nazism never permeated German society in the way that Islam permeated arab society. It remained essentially christian.
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #91 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:21pm:
In case you have forgotten Gandalf, here it is again:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 21st, 2019 at 9:50am:
I clearly gave my 'version' of what would happen had the Nazis "won" (however you define that). The Nazis were always on borrowed time - ruling only at the behest of the christian establishment that still very much dominated the wehrmacht.


Where did you get this from?


Gandalf, what do you think is more offensive, me asking you if you meant a textbook from a Muslim school, or your suggestion that the Nazis were only ruling at the behest of the "Christian Establishment"?
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #92 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:01pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:21pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:09pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
I've just spent six pages trying to get you to answer a simple question -
where did you get this "Christian establishment" crap from.


Gosh, I've only spent the same number of pages trying to explain.

Germany was united largely through the military and economic dominance of the Prussian aristocracy - a 'conservative Christian' ruling class if you will. Sometimes referred to as the "junker" class. These were the people who dominated the offices of power through both the emperorship and the transition to democracy, and continued through the Weimar republic. A brief challenge by the communists and other leftists after WWI was overcome due to a violent crackdown by establishment militias like the Freikorps. In fact if you really want to get deeply into it, the roots of the nazi-establishment cooperation largely stemmed from a common fear of the left - which the nazis swiftly went about destroying as soon as they came to power. Thats not to say the Nazis themselves didn't make enemies of the establishment - they did, as did any establishment figures who threw their lot in with them, most notably Luddendorf. But as they changed their modus operandi from violent putches to legitimate political processes, the establishment became less and less hostile, until eventually they saw them as useful allies - as von Papen did when he lobbied Hindenberg to appoint him chancelor (thinking he could control him). Establishment figures like the former chancelor von Schleicher who refused to fall in line were swiftly removed.

That in a nutshell is the Nazi rise part of the story, the other part is how they retained power. As I mentioned before, the aftermath of the 1944 bomb plot which revealed just how shockingly widespread was the knowledge of the plot within the Wehrmacht, demonstrated just how distinct and independent the old establishment (represented through the Wehrmacht) remained from the Nazi machine. Its almost as if the Wehrmacht preserved itself as a 'state within a state' - or you could even say the other way around, the Nazis were a state within the old Prussian state. Such a powerful force that kept its independence from the Nazis could no doubt have easily dispensed with the Nazi regime if they wished. But of course in a time of total war, there was no apetite to do so. One for all and all for one and all that. Prussian notions of honour and loyalty made turning against your government at a time when the country was under siege from all sides - an unspeakable act of treachery. Notwithstanding von Staffenberg and cohort.




Soooooo.... where's the Christian angle to the rise of the Nazis, then?

I am not seeing any in your post.


Actually we veered off track from the original point I was making - as all discussions with FD invariably do.

My original point was that Nazism never permeated German society in the way that Islam permeated arab society. It remained essentially christian.

That was ABSOLUTELY NOT your point. That's NOT what you were directly responding to - can you see it? - my dear little evasive, shifty carpet salesman of a son of Mohammed.





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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #93 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:58pm
 
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #94 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 11:23pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:58pm:
Carpet salesmen are not a race.

Inverts like you ARE a race apart.
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« Last Edit: Feb 16th, 2019 at 8:30am by Frank »  

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #95 - Feb 16th, 2019 at 9:33am
 
Frank wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 11:23pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:58pm:
Carpet salesmen are not a race.

Inverts like you ARE a race apart.


Now now, that's racist.

Get this one to confess, FD.
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Frank
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #96 - Feb 16th, 2019 at 8:56pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:58pm:
Carpet salesmen are not a race.

Oh, 11 o'clock at night - you have done haunting the toilet blocks of Auburn and Merrylands?  Coughing up any furballs, Paki?



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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: blaming Nazis good, blaming Muslims bad
Reply #97 - Feb 16th, 2019 at 11:04pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 16th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:58pm:
Carpet salesmen are not a race.

Oh, 11 o'clock at night - you have done haunting the toilet blocks of Auburn and Merrylands?  Coughing up any furballs, Paki?



Strange. What happened to not tonight, I have a headache?

Not getting jealous are you, dear?
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