Were they a Mindless Collective?

The Nazis were always on borrowed time - ruling only at the behest of the christian establishment that still very much dominated the wehrmacht.

freediver wrote on Jan 18^th, 2019 at 7:29pm:


As usual you don't pay attention.

I clearly gave my 'version' of what would happen had the Nazis "won" (however you define that). The Nazis were always on borrowed time - ruling only at the behest of the christian establishment that still very much dominated the wehrmacht. I have no doubt that total war made it easier for the Nazis to hold on to power. Yet even so there was a clear and almost open schism between the nazi ideologues and the establishment - which was laid bear for all to see during the 1944 bomb plot, and the subsequent purging of the military.

But as I said before, Hitler's armies didn't overrun most of Europe on the back of some ideological fervor known as "Nazism", it was mostly (as far as the military who did the actual overrunning were concerned) just a continuation of traditional, grievances, particularly in relation to a sense of unfinished business after WWI. Not that you could really come up with a coherent or tangible definition of what Nazi ideology even was, let alone inspire people to think its worth fighting and dying for. This is of course in stark contrast to the early muslims - whose culture and society was very much ammenable to the spiritual renewal to their existing religion that Muhammad and Islam offered, which many welcomed as the next logical progression of their existing religion. And it was such a clear and simplified message (one God, one book) compared to what they were trying to get their head around before. Thus it can be said that the religion itself deeply moved the early muslims and inspired them in their conquests - but the same cannot be even remotely said of the Germans who conquered for the nazis. The vast majority of whom were still deeply attached to their judeo-christian traditions and beliefs.

This reality of German culture, with its deep judeo-Christian roots, would not have suddenly changed had the Nazis won. As I said before, any German victory would have been won on the back of tradition German (christian) culture and values - and it would be that culture that would earn the legacy of such a victory - not the pretender Nazis. Nazism may have lingered while Hitler remained alive - in deference to the cult status he enjoyed, but as soon as he died (which would have been soon, as he was quite the physical wreck by the end), the adults would have taken back control in fairly short order - either by force or by default as the Nazis inevitably implode upon themselves.

freediver wrote on Jan 18^th, 2019 at 12:17pm:


Yeah it is.

You are creating a ridiculous alternative history that says nazism was some Islam-equivalent religion that took over the German population, and then launched their campaign to "nazify" the world - ala Muhammad and the caliphate.

Its ridiculous, because it falls down at the first hurdle: namely, German society was not a "nazi" one - it was a christian one, and remained fundamentally so right to the end. Nazi efforts to indoctrinate the population into basically 'changing' their religion from christian to nazi was laughed out of court, and the nazis quickly gave up. Far from an actual religion that permeated ordinary people's personal and spiritual lives (like Islam), nazism was more like a liberal party gone really bad, elected to government, and then quickly dismantled all the institutions that protected democracy. If that happened here, we wouldn't suddenly call the Australian population "liberalists" or whatever - even if our government forced us on a reckless and ultimately self destructive campaign of military conquest.

Thats the clear difference with Islam. Even if you could make the case that there were "Hitler-like" leaders who dragged their nations into reckless warfare, you can't deny that there existed in society a deeply rooted religion that transcended politics - that deeply permeated into culture, personal behaviour and beliefs - in a way that nazism didn't even come close. Again, the obvious and indisputable proof is that German society under nazis was still staunchly christian, while Islamic societies were staunchly Islamic. Any attempts at comparison should just end right there and then.

To put it simply, Islamic nations were/are full of muslims - however "Nazi nations", were not full of nazis - they were full of christians. And it was christians who drove the engines of the nazi war - whether it was ordinary workers who worked the munition factories, or foot soldiers in the Wehrmacht. In only extremely rare cases would they have been motivated to help the nazis out of love and devotion to the nazi "religion" - in almost all cases it was a sense of duty and loyalty to their country - their very christian country.

So what would I expect to happen to actual nazis had they "won" (whatever that entails)? I believe the grown-ups would have entered the fray and told the Nazis "thank you very much, but we'll take it from here". It probably would have required Hitler to die first, and after that cult figure had gone, the rest of the nazis probably would probably lose interest/faith in whatever tenets count as their religion, and melted back into normal, conservative, christian German society. Who knows really. The point here though is that had Germany won, it would have been a *GERMAN" victory, won on the back of German Christians - and therefore the legacy would be handed to German christians, not nazis.

Frank wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:


Well thats pretty much spot on Frank. Except its not just 'being deeply religious' (the extent of which I'm not entirely sure of in today's Russia - though its almost certainly greater than in most western countries), its the whole judeo-christian cultural aspect, which was dominant before 1917, and has returned to dominance once again since the fall of communism. And I'm pretty sure an examination of bolshevik rule would reveal traditional judeo-christian culture stubbornly hanging on pretty strongly amongst the Russian population.

Frank wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:


China is an interesting one. Someone I know who has spent a lot of time living in China lamented to me how communism has so successfully transformed the traditional confucianist culture of caring and sharing into one of cut-throat selfishness (ironic given its supposed to be socialism). Evidently the 'cultural revolution', as it were, in China was far more successful under Mao and co than it was in either Germany under the Nazis or the Russians under the Bolsheviks.

Frank wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2019 at 5:21pm:


actually I think simplicity is the key to offering the most effective spiritual renewal.

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2019 at 12:05am:


Not sure about Islam, but I do know from personal ties that western christian missionaries are running rampant in the country, to which the authorities largely turn a blind eye (proselytizing is officially illegal).