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Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder (Read 6065 times)
capitosinora
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Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Dec 26th, 2018 at 8:43am
 
...


Muslims should be offended when people worship Jesus as a god, and wishing someone a “Merry Christmas” is a worse sin than murder, a Canadian Islamic cleric has said during a sermon.

Sheik Younus Kathrada was preaching to the Muslim Youth of Victoria in British Columbia ahead of Christmas when he said that congratulating non-Muslims on their holidays means approving them.

“If a person were to commit every major sin – committing adultery, dealing with interest, lying, murder… If a person were to do all of those major sins, they are nothing compared to the sin of congratulating and greeting the non-Muslims on their false festivals,” Kathrada said, according to the video posted on the organization’s YouTube page.

https://www.rt.com/news/447388-christmas-worse-sin-muslim-cleric-canada/

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SORRY FOR POLITICAL INCORRECTNESS
 
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #1 - Dec 26th, 2018 at 10:19am
 
..and a Merry Christmas to the Musselonians among us, too .....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #2 - Dec 26th, 2018 at 10:53am
 
America is ruled by Jews and now the Moslems amongst them are uprising.
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Artificial Intelligence brought to you by ASIO.
 
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xeej
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #3 - Dec 26th, 2018 at 6:05pm
 
Clerics Muftas Scholars etc etc. What do they actually know.


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cods
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #4 - Dec 26th, 2018 at 6:07pm
 
Its ok to chop heads off though.... no sin there..

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

glad we are on different sides. Undecided
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #5 - Dec 26th, 2018 at 6:24pm
 
At least there was no "Jihad bells Jihad bells Jihad all the way" in Australia this year.
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #6 - Dec 26th, 2018 at 9:09pm
 
Apparently this Muslim fruitloops facebook page is full of people wishing him a Merry  Christmas!!! Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #7 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 1:16pm
 
I find it insulting to think that there the possibility that anyone in Australia would consider Jesus as a god. We normally grow out of the Jesus was real phase not long after we grow out of the Santa is real phase. Australia is a non-religious majority country.
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red baron
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #8 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 5:57pm
 
Who gives a flying f....k what the Muslims think about the Christian faith?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #9 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:05pm
 
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
Who gives a flying f....k what the Muslims think about the Christian faith?



Baron,
it's the new age of political correctness -
you can't say Merry Xmas in Australia anymore -
use instead "happy holidays " -
or else you could offend a Muslim.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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red baron
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #10 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:11pm
 
Yes I know Bobby, I went to Coles to buy a Christmas cake and all I could buy was a 'Celebration Cake'...I mean what the f....?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #11 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:13pm
 
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:11pm:
Yes I know Bobby,
I went to Coles to buy a Christmas cake and
all I could buy was a 'Celebration Cake'...I mean what the f....?



Next we'll have sharia law.
They'll stone women to death for adultery.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #12 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:25pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:13pm:
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:11pm:
Yes I know Bobby,
I went to Coles to buy a Christmas cake and
all I could buy was a 'Celebration Cake'...I mean what the f....?



Next we'll have sharia law.
They'll stone women to death for adultery.



... or accusations of adultery...... why do you imagine I've steadfastly opposed ANY 'guilt by accusation' becoming the law of the land (as the feminists are screeching for, while actively promoting the violence that kills more women than men - was tweeted the usual BS line about 'men are the killers' - and responded by saying that demanding violent solutions will only escalate the violence)?

When we suddenly find that someone is guilty when accused (once the norm for Australian police, BTW - accuse and they're guilty - here's your chance, Red), any punishment that is accorded to that 'crime' is acceptable...

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance by a few good men and women... here's to a few good men and women who have held the line for fifty or so years...

Liberty is not the 'right' to 'do as thou wilt' - it is the right to co-exist peacefully and responsibly in a society and uphold what is right, regardless of cost..... 'feminism' has destroyed personal responsibility with its nonsense about 'patriarchy' and 'men as oppressors' ... no wonder the farken door is wide open to ratbags like the rabid Mussos and such. 

They see that 51% of THIS nation are apparently demanding imprisonment on accusation for men accused of 'domestic violence' (a 'definition' that covers an near-endless variety of normal issues in relationships) - and which is an absolute equation with and even alliance with nonsense Sharia law that permits guilt by accusation regardless of all other factors.

Why then should there not be death by stoning on accusation for women accused of adultery?

Be careful what you demand, feminists - there is a whirlwind behind your wind-bagging..

Stop The War On Western Men!
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Cu Chullain
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #13 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:35pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:25pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:13pm:
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:11pm:
Yes I know Bobby,
I went to Coles to buy a Christmas cake and
all I could buy was a 'Celebration Cake'...I mean what the f....?



Next we'll have sharia law.
They'll stone women to death for adultery.



... or accusations of adultery...... why do you imagine I've steadfastly opposed ANY 'guilt by accusation' becoming the law of the land (as the feminists are screeching for, while actively promoting the violence that kills more women than men - was tweeted the usual BS line about 'men are the killers' - and responded by saying that demanding violent solutions will only escalate the violence)?

When we suddenly find that someone is guilty when accused (once the norm for Australian police, BTW - accuse and they're guilty - here's your chance, Red), any punishment that is accorded to that 'crime' is acceptable...

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance by a few good men and women... here's to a few good men and women who have held the line for fifty or so years...

Liberty is not the 'right' to 'do as thou wilt' - it is the right to co-exist peacefully and responsibly in a society and uphold what is right, regardless of cost..... 'feminism' has destroyed personal responsibility with its nonsense about 'patriarchy' and 'men as oppressors' ... no wonder the farken door is wide open to ratbags like the rabid Mussos and such. 

They see that 51% of THIS nation are apparently demanding imprisonment on accusation for men accused of 'domestic violence' (a 'definition' that covers an near-endless variety of normal issues in relationships) - and which is an absolute equation with and even alliance with nonsense Sharia law that permits guilt by accusation regardless of all other factors.

Why then should there not be death by stoning on accusation for women accused of adultery?

Be careful what you demand, feminists - there is a whirlwind behind your wind-bagging..

Stop The War On Western Men!


But... But... The patriarchy! The white oppressors!  Roll Eyes
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Paul Onions
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #14 - Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:40pm
 
Islam is cool. Observing conservative Muslims is like time travelling back 1500 years to when we were tribal barbarians.

Observing traditional Abos is even cooler as it's like travelling back to the stone age.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #15 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:36am
 
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:35pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:25pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:13pm:
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:11pm:
Yes I know Bobby,
I went to Coles to buy a Christmas cake and
all I could buy was a 'Celebration Cake'...I mean what the f....?



Next we'll have sharia law.
They'll stone women to death for adultery.



... or accusations of adultery...... why do you imagine I've steadfastly opposed ANY 'guilt by accusation' becoming the law of the land (as the feminists are screeching for, while actively promoting the violence that kills more women than men - was tweeted the usual BS line about 'men are the killers' - and responded by saying that demanding violent solutions will only escalate the violence)?

When we suddenly find that someone is guilty when accused (once the norm for Australian police, BTW - accuse and they're guilty - here's your chance, Red), any punishment that is accorded to that 'crime' is acceptable...

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance by a few good men and women... here's to a few good men and women who have held the line for fifty or so years...

Liberty is not the 'right' to 'do as thou wilt' - it is the right to co-exist peacefully and responsibly in a society and uphold what is right, regardless of cost..... 'feminism' has destroyed personal responsibility with its nonsense about 'patriarchy' and 'men as oppressors' ... no wonder the farken door is wide open to ratbags like the rabid Mussos and such. 

They see that 51% of THIS nation are apparently demanding imprisonment on accusation for men accused of 'domestic violence' (a 'definition' that covers an near-endless variety of normal issues in relationships) - and which is an absolute equation with and even alliance with nonsense Sharia law that permits guilt by accusation regardless of all other factors.

Why then should there not be death by stoning on accusation for women accused of adultery?

Be careful what you demand, feminists - there is a whirlwind behind your wind-bagging..

Stop The War On Western Men!


But... But... The patriarchy! The white oppressors!  Roll Eyes


The bastards.... too much privilege is their problem....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Cu Chullain
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #16 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:44am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:36am:
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:35pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 11:25pm:
Bobby. wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:13pm:
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 6:11pm:
Yes I know Bobby,
I went to Coles to buy a Christmas cake and
all I could buy was a 'Celebration Cake'...I mean what the f....?



Next we'll have sharia law.
They'll stone women to death for adultery.



... or accusations of adultery...... why do you imagine I've steadfastly opposed ANY 'guilt by accusation' becoming the law of the land (as the feminists are screeching for, while actively promoting the violence that kills more women than men - was tweeted the usual BS line about 'men are the killers' - and responded by saying that demanding violent solutions will only escalate the violence)?

When we suddenly find that someone is guilty when accused (once the norm for Australian police, BTW - accuse and they're guilty - here's your chance, Red), any punishment that is accorded to that 'crime' is acceptable...

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance by a few good men and women... here's to a few good men and women who have held the line for fifty or so years...

Liberty is not the 'right' to 'do as thou wilt' - it is the right to co-exist peacefully and responsibly in a society and uphold what is right, regardless of cost..... 'feminism' has destroyed personal responsibility with its nonsense about 'patriarchy' and 'men as oppressors' ... no wonder the farken door is wide open to ratbags like the rabid Mussos and such. 

They see that 51% of THIS nation are apparently demanding imprisonment on accusation for men accused of 'domestic violence' (a 'definition' that covers an near-endless variety of normal issues in relationships) - and which is an absolute equation with and even alliance with nonsense Sharia law that permits guilt by accusation regardless of all other factors.

Why then should there not be death by stoning on accusation for women accused of adultery?

Be careful what you demand, feminists - there is a whirlwind behind your wind-bagging..

Stop The War On Western Men!


But... But... The patriarchy! The white oppressors!  Roll Eyes


The bastards.... too much privilege is their problem....


The Hutus knew how to get rid of their Tutsi and Pygmy white oppressors! You go gurls!
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #17 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:49am
 
http://vexmovies.org/hotel-rwanda

Tutsi were only half white.... or so...

I met a young 1RAR trooper with the same name as me... he had been a butcher in civilian life and went back to it after attending the Rwandan Games.... he suffered PTSD the moment he chopped or cut meat... and ended up in hospital....

S'in my book.... one of....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Cu Chullain
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #18 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:00am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:49am:


I can remember clear as day seeing hidden videos taken back then. Women on their knees on a road, begging, then chopped to death, etc. This is the reality that them and us mentalities brings.


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Cu Chullain
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #19 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:04am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:49am:
http://vexmovies.org/hotel-rwanda

Tutsi were only half white.... or so...

I met a young 1RAR trooper with the same name as me... he had been a butcher in civilian life and went back to it after attending the Rwandan Games.... he suffered PTSD the moment he chopped or cut meat... and ended up in hospital....

S'in my book.... one of....


They weren't any more white than the Hutu. Just as I'm no more privileged than anyone else. I don't have any more power than anyone else in this country.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #20 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:11am
 
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:00am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:49am:


I can remember clear as day seeing hidden videos taken back then. Women on their knees on a road, begging, then chopped to death, etc. This is the reality that them and us mentalities brings.




Too true..... they cut off the breasts so they couldn't feed the next generation..... this is the absolute outcome from 'us and them' and identity politics..... and why I oppose it with might and main...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #21 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:13am
 
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:04am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:49am:
http://vexmovies.org/hotel-rwanda

Tutsi were only half white.... or so...

I met a young 1RAR trooper with the same name as me... he had been a butcher in civilian life and went back to it after attending the Rwandan Games.... he suffered PTSD the moment he chopped or cut meat... and ended up in hospital....

S'in my book.... one of....


They weren't any more white than the Hutu. Just as I'm no more privileged than anyone else. I don't have any more power than anyone else in this country.


Most have no real power - all this 'power' garbage so (ab)used in politics of a certain kind these days is garbage, and is set to devastate the majority .... again....

No sane government could tolerate what they are currently doing.... that is.. those governments themselves....

BOTR!

I have seen to the heart of the beast... and he is not beautiful.....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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Cu Chullain
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #22 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:44am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:13am:
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:04am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:49am:
http://vexmovies.org/hotel-rwanda

Tutsi were only half white.... or so...

I met a young 1RAR trooper with the same name as me... he had been a butcher in civilian life and went back to it after attending the Rwandan Games.... he suffered PTSD the moment he chopped or cut meat... and ended up in hospital....

S'in my book.... one of....


They weren't any more white than the Hutu. Just as I'm no more privileged than anyone else. I don't have any more power than anyone else in this country.


Most have no real power - all this 'power' garbage so (ab)used in politics of a certain kind these days is garbage, and is set to devastate the majority .... again....

No sane government could tolerate what they are currently doing.... that is.. those governments themselves....

BOTR!

I have seen to the heart of the beast... and he is not beautiful.....


Was it a kaiju?
Is Mothra a kaiju?
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UnSubRocky
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #23 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:59am
 
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
Who gives a flying f....k what the Muslims think about the Christian faith?


A lot of people gave a bugger when Morrocan jihadis decided to cut the heads of two Scandinavian women.
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Cu Chullain
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #24 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 2:03am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:59am:
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
Who gives a flying f....k what the Muslims think about the Christian faith?


A lot of people gave a bugger when Morrocan jihadis decided to cut the heads of two Scandinavian women.


Being Scandinavian the odds are they were not "Christian" in the full meaning of the word, Scandinavian countries are not that religious. I don't think the post you are replying to was about that.

I don't think the arseholes would have even bothered asking before their Allah'u Akbaring either. The simple fact they were European would have been enough. Not racist though and nothing to do with Islam.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #25 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 6:46am
 
Islam,
And it's barbaric, sick, primitive practices.
Worshiping a twisted, mentally ill, self confessed pedophile nutcase sociopath,

Attract the very worst and mentally ill in every society.
They deliberately solicit followers from the worst levels of society and the most worthless of people.

This cult of death is the perfect vehicle for misogynist,  barbaric, brutal, sick individuals and gives them the ability to express their twisted needs with impunity.

This cult must be eradicated.
It is a deseased that , if left unchecked, will destroy the world We know.
It has started already, it destroys the countries it infects.

We must be rid of this cult.
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #26 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 7:12am
 
Muzlims are God's chosen people. They are infallible when it comes to moral and spiritual matters, and there book gives them the right to cut off your head.
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The West is not the intentional enemy of Islam, but it should be.
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #27 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:41pm
 
Clearly the cleric is a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas.

It kinda reminds Raven of people who get offended by people saying Happy Holidays. You are being a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Happy Holidays.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Abu
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #28 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:53pm
 
Raven wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:41pm:
Clearly the cleric is a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas.

It kinda reminds Raven of people who get offended by people saying Happy Holidays. You are being a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Happy Holidays.


Exactly. Thanks to Mr Trump, we're all allowed to say Merry Christmas again.
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Frank
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #29 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:24pm
 
Abu wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:53pm:
Raven wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:41pm:
Clearly the cleric is a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas.

It kinda reminds Raven of people who get offended by people saying Happy Holidays. You are being a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Happy Holidays.


Exactly. Thanks to Mr Trump, we're all allowed to say Merry Christmas again.

So a Muslim 'cleric' with a bed sheet over his head talking Islamic shite about Christmas being worse than murder is Trump's fault.

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Abu
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #30 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:24pm
 
xeej wrote on Dec 26th, 2018 at 6:05pm:
Clerics Muftas Scholars etc etc. What do they actually know.




They certainly know a sin when they see one, Matty. And this sounds like a really awful one - worse than rape, murder, genocide, or even leaving your womenfolk with their labia majora.

Despicable.

Merry Christmas, leftards.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #31 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:51pm
 
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:44am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:13am:
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:04am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 12:49am:
http://vexmovies.org/hotel-rwanda

Tutsi were only half white.... or so...

I met a young 1RAR trooper with the same name as me... he had been a butcher in civilian life and went back to it after attending the Rwandan Games.... he suffered PTSD the moment he chopped or cut meat... and ended up in hospital....

S'in my book.... one of....


They weren't any more white than the Hutu. Just as I'm no more privileged than anyone else. I don't have any more power than anyone else in this country.


Most have no real power - all this 'power' garbage so (ab)used in politics of a certain kind these days is garbage, and is set to devastate the majority .... again....

No sane government could tolerate what they are currently doing.... that is.. those governments themselves....

BOTR!

I have seen to the heart of the beast... and he is not beautiful.....


Was it a kaiju?
Is Mothra a kaiju?


I drawn no conclusions there... I respect her right to rubbish and abuse others and then cry victim....  mayhap it is the Kaiju Beer that does it...

Classical feminist ploy... attack and then cry victim.... been around with sheilas for centuries now... only now it is a 'right' sanctified by law..... and then they wonder why respect for the law is falling faster than a stockbroker in 1929 ....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #32 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 11:05pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Abu wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:53pm:
Raven wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:41pm:
Clearly the cleric is a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas.

It kinda reminds Raven of people who get offended by people saying Happy Holidays. You are being a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Happy Holidays.


Exactly. Thanks to Mr Trump, we're all allowed to say Merry Christmas again.

So a Muslim 'cleric' with a bed sheet over his head talking Islamic shite about Christmas being worse than murder is Trump's fault.



Is it? Whatever gave you that idea?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #33 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 11:27pm
 
Hate speech - ship 'im out.... that'll bring the nutters out where we can get at 'em properly ....

"Awright, me little Muslim cleric mate.. it's off back to Gypoland for you... and Jeez, mate... I hope you've got no enemies back there what forced you to come 'ere and talk yer rot!  Oh, well.... can't wait for yer missus to identify yer - No - that's not Mohamed.. he was at least a head taller!"
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #34 - Dec 30th, 2018 at 3:43am
 
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 2:03am:
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:59am:
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
Who gives a flying f....k what the Muslims think about the Christian faith?


A lot of people gave a bugger when Morrocan jihadis decided to cut the heads of two Scandinavian women.


Being Scandinavian the odds are they were not "Christian" in the full meaning of the word, Scandinavian countries are not that religious. I don't think the post you are replying to was about that.

I don't think the arseholes would have even bothered asking before their Allah'u Akbaring either. The simple fact they were European would have been enough. Not racist though and nothing to do with Islam.


Yes, the simple fact that the victims were European was the reason why they were murdered. They would not care, unless the victims proved that they were Muslim, the scenario that the victims being Muslim. Although, I kind of wonder if it would matter, being that the victims were women.

And I am aware the Scandanavian countries are secular. Muslims will simply assume a white person is a non-Muslim.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #35 - Dec 30th, 2018 at 6:00pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2018 at 3:43am:
Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 2:03am:
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 1:59am:
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
Who gives a flying f....k what the Muslims think about the Christian faith?


A lot of people gave a bugger when Morrocan jihadis decided to cut the heads of two Scandinavian women.


Being Scandinavian the odds are they were not "Christian" in the full meaning of the word, Scandinavian countries are not that religious. I don't think the post you are replying to was about that.

I don't think the arseholes would have even bothered asking before their Allah'u Akbaring either. The simple fact they were European would have been enough. Not racist though and nothing to do with Islam.


Yes, the simple fact that the victims were European was the reason why they were murdered. They would not care, unless the victims proved that they were Muslim, the scenario that the victims being Muslim. Although, I kind of wonder if it would matter, being that the victims were women.

And I am aware the Scandanavian countries are secular. Muslims will simply assume a white person is a non-Muslim.


As has been proven many many times.

They don't care who they kill, as long as they get to kill someone.

In their own hell holes, where tgere ain't no whites to kill, they start on their own.
Stoning them, beheading them, dropping walls on them, chopping girls bits off, it's all the same to them
Kill, kill, kill.
This is the mantra of the CULT OF DEATH.

The Imran work on the principle that the more they kill, the less there are to oppose them.
They use thugs who love to kill and bully and go around killing, chopping and throwing as it at all and sundry.

Terrorism is even more prevalent in muzzo hell holes than in the West.
But apologists prefer to ignore this little fact.
Muzzos have no place in civilized society.
Apologists have no place in the human race.
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #36 - Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm
 
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament, but instead of the holy trinity of god (the spirit, the father and Jesus), they believe and respect Jesus as one of god's great prophets. 

The actual Christmas day is not the actual day of birth of Christ.  Historic records are conflicting, but puts days around 25 of March.  The day of 25/12 was derived from a Roman Pagan holiday -Feast of Saturn, to celebrate winter solstice - which is a very important day in agricultural societies. 

So... as Christians.... should we not celebrate Jesus birthday on his actual birthday rather than a Pagan holiday?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #37 - Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:16pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament, but instead of the holy trinity of god (the spirit, the father and Jesus), they believe and respect Jesus as one of god's great prophets. 

The actual Christmas day is not the actual day of birth of Christ.  Historic records are conflicting, but puts days around 25 of March.  The day of 25/12 was derived from a Roman Pagan holiday -Feast of Saturn, to celebrate winter solstice - which is a very important day in agricultural societies. 

So... as Christians.... should we not celebrate Jesus birthday on his actual birthday rather than a Pagan holiday? 

How can Jesus be one of Allah's prophets when  Christianity outdates Islam by 600 years? Allah's Jesus has nothing in common with Christianity's  Jesus. The muslims probably chucked in Jesus to suck in a few converts.
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« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:47pm by Mr Hammer »  
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #38 - Jan 2nd, 2019 at 4:06pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:16pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament, but instead of the holy trinity of god (the spirit, the father and Jesus), they believe and respect Jesus as one of god's great prophets. 

The actual Christmas day is not the actual day of birth of Christ.  Historic records are conflicting, but puts days around 25 of March.  The day of 25/12 was derived from a Roman Pagan holiday -Feast of Saturn, to celebrate winter solstice - which is a very important day in agricultural societies. 

So... as Christians.... should we not celebrate Jesus birthday on his actual birthday rather than a Pagan holiday? 

How can Jesus be one of Allah's prophets when  Christianity outdates Islam by 600 years? Allah's Jesus has nothing in common with Christianity's  Jesus. The muslims probably chucked in Jesus to suck in a few converts.


If you ask a muslim.  Allah is actually their language representation for God.   In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".

And in Islam, they believe in the old Abrahamic god - in the old testament, and of the Hebrew scripture.  In fact, our use of the word 'god' and 'Jesus' is actually an altered form from the original. 

Islam considers Jesus to be al-Masih, the Arabic term for Messiah, sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl in Arabic) with a new revelation: al-Injīl (Arabic for "the Gospel"). Christianity believes Jesus to be the Messiah of the Hebrew scripture, the Son of God, and God the Son, while Muslims consider the Trinity to be a division of God's Oneness and a grave sin (shirk). Muslims believe Jesus (Isa) to be a messenger of God, not the son of God.

Christianity and Islam have different scriptures, with Christianity using the Bible and Islam using the Quran, however Muslims believe that the Gospel was also sent by God. Both texts offer an account of the life and works of Jesus. The belief in Jesus is a fundamental part of Islamic theology, and Muslims view the Christian Injeel as altered, while Christians consider the Gospels to be authoritative and the Quran to be a later, fabricated or apocryphal work. Both religions believe in the virgin birth of Jesus through Mary, but the Biblical and Islamic accounts differ.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #39 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am
 
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #40 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #41 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #42 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:01am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 4:06pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:16pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament, but instead of the holy trinity of god (the spirit, the father and Jesus), they believe and respect Jesus as one of god's great prophets. 

The actual Christmas day is not the actual day of birth of Christ.  Historic records are conflicting, but puts days around 25 of March.  The day of 25/12 was derived from a Roman Pagan holiday -Feast of Saturn, to celebrate winter solstice - which is a very important day in agricultural societies. 

So... as Christians.... should we not celebrate Jesus birthday on his actual birthday rather than a Pagan holiday? 

How can Jesus be one of Allah's prophets when  Christianity outdates Islam by 600 years? Allah's Jesus has nothing in common with Christianity's  Jesus. The muslims probably chucked in Jesus to suck in a few converts.


If you ask a muslim.  Allah is actually their language representation for God.   In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".

And in Islam, they believe in the old Abrahamic god - in the old testament, and of the Hebrew scripture.  In fact, our use of the word 'god' and 'Jesus' is actually an altered form from the original. 

Islam considers Jesus to be al-Masih, the Arabic term for Messiah, sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl in Arabic) with a new revelation: al-Injīl (Arabic for "the Gospel"). Christianity believes Jesus to be the Messiah of the Hebrew scripture, the Son of God, and God the Son, while Muslims consider the Trinity to be a division of God's Oneness and a grave sin (shirk). Muslims believe Jesus (Isa) to be a messenger of God, not the son of God.

Christianity and Islam have different scriptures, with Christianity using the Bible and Islam using the Quran, however Muslims believe that the Gospel was also sent by God. Both texts offer an account of the life and works of Jesus. The belief in Jesus is a fundamental part of Islamic theology, and Muslims view the Christian Injeel as altered, while Christians consider the Gospels to be authoritative and the Quran to be a later, fabricated or apocryphal work. Both religions believe in the virgin birth of Jesus through Mary, but the Biblical and Islamic accounts differ.


I believe the word they used was "Yahweh" not Allah.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #43 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:04am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:01am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 4:06pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:16pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament, but instead of the holy trinity of god (the spirit, the father and Jesus), they believe and respect Jesus as one of god's great prophets. 

The actual Christmas day is not the actual day of birth of Christ.  Historic records are conflicting, but puts days around 25 of March.  The day of 25/12 was derived from a Roman Pagan holiday -Feast of Saturn, to celebrate winter solstice - which is a very important day in agricultural societies. 

So... as Christians.... should we not celebrate Jesus birthday on his actual birthday rather than a Pagan holiday? 

How can Jesus be one of Allah's prophets when  Christianity outdates Islam by 600 years? Allah's Jesus has nothing in common with Christianity's  Jesus. The muslims probably chucked in Jesus to suck in a few converts.


If you ask a muslim.  Allah is actually their language representation for God.   In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".

And in Islam, they believe in the old Abrahamic god - in the old testament, and of the Hebrew scripture.  In fact, our use of the word 'god' and 'Jesus' is actually an altered form from the original. 

Islam considers Jesus to be al-Masih, the Arabic term for Messiah, sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl in Arabic) with a new revelation: al-Injīl (Arabic for "the Gospel"). Christianity believes Jesus to be the Messiah of the Hebrew scripture, the Son of God, and God the Son, while Muslims consider the Trinity to be a division of God's Oneness and a grave sin (shirk). Muslims believe Jesus (Isa) to be a messenger of God, not the son of God.

Christianity and Islam have different scriptures, with Christianity using the Bible and Islam using the Quran, however Muslims believe that the Gospel was also sent by God. Both texts offer an account of the life and works of Jesus. The belief in Jesus is a fundamental part of Islamic theology, and Muslims view the Christian Injeel as altered, while Christians consider the Gospels to be authoritative and the Quran to be a later, fabricated or apocryphal work. Both religions believe in the virgin birth of Jesus through Mary, but the Biblical and Islamic accounts differ.


I believe the word they used was "Yahweh" not Allah.


Could be, the actually word Allah that we write is altered as well. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #44 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:07am
 
Raven wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:41pm:
Clearly the cleric is a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas.

It kinda reminds Raven of people who get offended by people saying Happy Holidays. You are being a dick head. Nothing wrong with saying Happy Holidays.


No nothing wrong with saying Happy Holiday ...

but when it's used specifically just to pander to people(dickheads) who claim offense there is.

Especially if there is instruction to use it & not the other.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #45 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #46 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:21am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am:
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus. 


He was thrown out of his tribe ... ran to hide with the Medians .... got their trust found a few supporters and then slaughtered 800 & told the others to convert to his way or cop the same.

He was the exact opposite to Jesus.

He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #47 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:38am
 
He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.



People really are that stupid, like sheep they will follow for fear of being separated from the herd.

I should have started my own religion years ago,,, and yes it would involve worshiping me of course.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #48 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:41am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:21am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am:
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus. 


He was thrown out of his tribe ... ran to hide with the Medians .... got their trust found a few supporters and then slaughtered 800 & told the others to convert to his way or cop the same.

He was the exact opposite to Jesus.

He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.


From what I know, in earlier years, Mohammad was a merchant that travels alot.  He was driven out from Mecca because at the time, it had a polytheist religion.   The take over of Mecca in later years, was largely bloodless. 

By definition, anyone around those times living in those area, with a large army supporting him is a warlord. Before his death, he was able to unify most of Arabia under his banner.  And that is no small achievement. 

And you cant compare Mohammad to Jesus.  Because, in Christian belief, Jesus is god.  And even in Islam, Mohammad is not god, but a prophet of god. 

As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #49 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 12:08pm
 
Quote:
As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.


Are you going to tell us about the context to having sex with children?

Would you say that Muhammad's takeover of Medina was bloodless?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #50 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 12:08pm:
Quote:
As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.


Are you going to tell us about the context to having sex with children?

Would you say that Muhammad's takeover of Medina was bloodless?


Well, it really depends on where your information is coming from.  Much of the Quran is about looking through the eyes of Mohammad to the world, and what he will do.  There is not much about his life.  And over the thousands of years, these are again mixed with legends.   In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.  Yes there were dark times.  Everyone does it, Christians, Muslims, polytheist, Jews.  Girls can be betrothed at 3 years of age, and married off.   In fact, as of 2018, there are still 18 states in USA that do not have minimal ages for marriage. 

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

What does a pedophile do?  Look at people like Peter Scully, and what he did.  Then you will know what a true pedophile is alike.

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #51 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:58pm
 
Quote:
Well, it really depends on where your information is coming from.  Much of the Quran is about looking through the eyes of Mohammad to the world, and what he will do.


You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?

Quote:
There is not much about his life.  And over the thousands of years, these are again mixed with legends.   In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad.
 

We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....

Quote:
Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children


Nice. So he just buggered anything that moved? Adult or child? What point are you trying to make here?

Quote:
Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.


Thanks to Islam, they still are in much of the world. They would still be viewed as sex slaves if not for a few centuries of western intervention, and even here Muslims still challenge us.

Quote:
Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.


So, other than offering one excuse after another for Muhammad, what are you trying to do?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #52 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm
 
Quote:
You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?


Just like God slaughtered Egyptians and had sex with a Judean child?

Quote:
We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse.  God was how old when he committed adultery with a virgin child named Mary?

God was a paedo.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #53 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:58pm:
Quote:
Well, it really depends on where your information is coming from.  Much of the Quran is about looking through the eyes of Mohammad to the world, and what he will do.


You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?

Quote:
There is not much about his life.  And over the thousands of years, these are again mixed with legends.   In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad.
 

We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....

Quote:
Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children


Nice. So he just buggered anything that moved? Adult or child? What point are you trying to make here?

Quote:
Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.


Thanks to Islam, they still are in much of the world. They would still be viewed as sex slaves if not for a few centuries of western intervention, and even here Muslims still challenge us.

Quote:
Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.


So, other than offering one excuse after another for Muhammad, what are you trying to do?


Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.  Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.   And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.   Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile, and child marriages are widely accepted and practiced by every religion and tribe.  So that is the context.  Sure, you can use 21 century standard to criticize him if that is what you wish.

I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well. 


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #54 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:21pm
 
Quote:
You have Aisha's own words, my arse.


Aussie your complete ignorance of what you are talking about is not evidence.

Quote:
Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.


And I am asking you why. All you have offered by way of explanation is excuses for Muhammad slaughtering Jews and having sex with children.

Quote:
Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.


You are misleading people with statistics. The low average was significantly affected by the high infant death rate. Do you know what the median age of death for adults was?

Quote:
And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.


Exactly. So how does this justify sex with 9 year old girls? Is there some kind of compulsion to have sex with children before they die from childhood diseases?

Quote:
Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile


Yes there was.

Quote:
I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well.


In the middle ages, slavery was coming to an end in Europe under the influence of Christianity, while Muslims were depopulating the coast of Italy by hunting little girls to have sex with.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #55 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:21pm:
Quote:
You have Aisha's own words, my arse.


Aussie your complete ignorance of what you are talking about is not evidence.

Quote:
Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.


And I am asking you why. All you have offered by way of explanation is excuses for Muhammad slaughtering Jews and having sex with children.

Quote:
Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.


You are misleading people with statistics. The low average was significantly affected by the high infant death rate. Do you know what the median age of death for adults was?

Quote:
And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.


Exactly. So how does this justify sex with 9 year old girls? Is there some kind of compulsion to have sex with children before they die from childhood diseases?

Quote:
Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile


Yes there was.

Quote:
I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well.


In the middle ages, slavery was coming to an end in Europe under the influence of Christianity, while Muslims were depopulating the coast of Italy by hunting little girls to have sex with.


Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.  Our ancestors at that time is no different.  And therefore, its a bit rich for you to stand high and mighty on your moral ground, criticizing in the 21st century.    But why stop there? Like Aussie said, even virgin Mary was a child when she was pregnant with Jesus.   Our christian priests are abusing children sexually. 

Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.  I am merely pointing out the historical context.  Mind you, Mohammad did not have sex with children.  Children means more than one.  Is there another one? 

And as to massacre the Jews.  Well, once again, it was largely a lawless world back then.  Its either you  kill the other, or the other kill you.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #56 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #57 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #58 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #59 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm
 
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #60 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:12pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?



Not so much as 'disbelieve' as 'believe without question.'  When did this likely mythical bloke Bukhari  write this obviously hearsay account of what some nine year old allegedly said?  Why would anyone at the time give a two-penny farq about what some nine year old irrelevant kid said way back then?

Nah....just like the Bible...this is all bullshit propaganda which is based loosely on what allegedly happened a zillion years ago.

Just rubbish.

Some people need to believe in sky fairies.  I missed the queue where that need was being dispensed.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #61 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61




You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #62 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:28pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:12pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?



Not so much as 'disbelieve' as 'believe without question.'  When did this likely mythical bloke Bukhari  write this obviously hearsay account of what some nine year old allegedly said?  Why would anyone at the time give a two-penny farq about what some nine year old irrelevant kid said way back then?

Nah....just like the Bible...this is all bullshit propaganda which is based loosely on what allegedly happened a zillion years ago.

Just rubbish.

Some people need to believe in sky fairies.  I missed the queue where that need was being dispensed.


Muhammad founded the largest empire that had ever existed Aussie, as well as a major world religion. It is not a fairy tale, despite your best efforts to use your ignorance of Islam as evidence it did not exist.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #63 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:44pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:12pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?



Not so much as 'disbelieve' as 'believe without question.'  When did this likely mythical bloke Bukhari  write this obviously hearsay account of what some nine year old allegedly said?  Why would anyone at the time give a two-penny farq about what some nine year old irrelevant kid said way back then?

Just rubbish.

Some people need to believe in sky fairies.  I missed the queue where that need was being dispensed.



The whole Islamic religion is based on hearsay arsie, the Quran was not created by Allah creator of the universe it was made into a book 23 years after Muhammad died by the Caliph Uthman because the hafiz (those who memorised the quran) were getting killed in battles. The Quran was passed down by word of mouth by the Hafiz for 23 years before it was made into a book.


If you have a problem with Bukhari i suggest you tell a muslim Bukhari is full of poo, what could go wrong   Grin

What gets me is why leftists like you, little pecca,brian, mothra and the maniac monkey defend this belief based on sky fairies
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #64 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 

And when you mention that our ancestor at the time is no different.  I would have to disagree.  Read up on the 1st crusade, and in particular, the people's crusade, and the prince's crusade.  And you can make up the judgement yourself.   Smiley
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #65 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 5:16pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 

And when you mention that our ancestor at the time is no different.  I would have to disagree.  Read up on the 1st crusade, and in particular, the people's crusade, and the prince's crusade.  And you can make up the judgement yourself.   Smiley


Muslims say Muhammad was a perfect example of man are you saying we cannot refute that bullshit?
https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=A7YtXPv4EsWD8gWmsZ2gCw&q=muhammad+...


The Crusades were a response to Islamic conquests please read some history
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #66 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 5:26pm
 
I read this far.

Quote:
The whole Islamic religion is based on hearsay arsie,


Correct.  So is Christianity.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #67 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 6:28pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #68 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 8:55pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 


Are you suggesting that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam?

What makes you so sure that ignoring the elephant in the room is a better way to make the elephant go away?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #69 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm
 
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #70 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:02am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....


Are you saying that Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #71 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:10am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....

So communists and communism are two different things? Catholics and Catholicism? 

What you are telling us that only muslims who are take Islam seriously are the dangerous ones. The backsliders and part-timers and yeah-but-no-butters are harmless.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #72 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:18am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61


You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam


I am not defending Mohammad or Islam.  I am just telling it as it is, we are talking about historic issues.  However, it does not mean there is no marriage that is free, and that there is no women in position of power.  There are exceptions.   Khadija was considered widely as the most important figure in Islam, and the mother of believers.  She was already very wealthy long before she married Mohammad. 

Secondly, the Bukhari I think is one of the six hadith of the Sunni sect of muslim, which I think.. the Shia sector does not really ... erh... conform to. Furthermore, the Bukhari scripture were completed around early to mid 8th century AD, and both Aisha and Mohammad lived in the 6th century. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #73 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:59am
 
...
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SORRY FOR POLITICAL INCORRECTNESS
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #74 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:09am
 
capitosinora wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:59am:


Oh no, it looks like she's about to fall! She's farqued.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #75 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:12am
 
Cu Chullain wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:09am:
capitosinora wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:59am:


Oh no, it looks like she's about to fall! She's farqued.



She's black!
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #76 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:52am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61


You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam


I am not defending Mohammad or Islam.  I am just telling it as it is, we are talking about historic issues.  However, it does not mean there is no marriage that is free, and that there is no women in position of power.  There are exceptions.   Khadija was considered widely as the most important figure in Islam, and the mother of believers.  She was already very wealthy long before she married Mohammad. 

Secondly, the Bukhari I think is one of the six hadith of the Sunni sect of muslim, which I think.. the Shia sector does not really ... erh... conform to. Furthermore, the Bukhari scripture were completed around early to mid 8th century AD, and both Aisha and Mohammad lived in the 6th century. 


You are defending Islam and Muhammad, with spineless and inaccurate moral equivocating. "Telling it like it is" is just another excuse for what you are doing, but does not change what you are doing.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #77 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 11:36am
 
re Freediver:

Defending what?  This is ridiculous.  Just because you keep repeating of what you think I am doing does not make it true. 

I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.  Nothing in my post, I seek to defend the atrocities of the Islamic extremist.   In fact i criticized that through out history, women and children were subjugated, and treated like commodities by nearly all cultures.  I also pointed out, that perhaps, there are not enough historic (and debated) evidence, and as well in terms of historic context to suggest that Mohammad was infact a true pedophile. 

It is not like I am saying what a great person or his religion was. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #78 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:13pm
 
Quote:
I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.


... in defense of Islam and Muhammad.

You also said we should not blame Islam for the problems that Muslims are inflicting on the world today. Are you now saying this is not defending Islam and Muhammad?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #79 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:28pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61


You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam


I am not defending Mohammad or Islam.  I am just telling it as it is, we are talking about historic issues.  However, it does not mean there is no marriage that is free, and that there is no women in position of power.  There are exceptions.   Khadija was considered widely as the most important figure in Islam, and the mother of believers.  She was already very wealthy long before she married Mohammad. 

Secondly, the Bukhari I think is one of the six hadith of the Sunni sect of muslim, which I think.. the Shia sector does not really ... erh... conform to. Furthermore, the Bukhari scripture were completed around early to mid 8th century AD, and both Aisha and Mohammad lived in the 6th century. 


Aisha was considered the mother of believers don't let your ignorance get in the way of reality, perhaps you should do some research before making absurd claims.- https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=PcMuXPmWNoun8AWL5bfIAg&q=aisha+mot...


Bukhari is considered the most reliable of the sunni hadith while Al Kafi is the main shia hadith.


Was the author of the Shia hadith Al Kafi born 56 years after Muhammad Bukhari, was he 6 years old when Bukhari died?


If you want to dismiss Bukhari then surely you must dismiss the Shia hadith as well since it was written long after Sahih Al Bukhari


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #80 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
Quote:
I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.


... in defense of Islam and Muhammad.

You also said we should not blame Islam for the problems that Muslims are inflicting on the world today. Are you now saying this is not defending Islam and Muhammad?


Well, freediver, if you treat anyone who seek to disagree with your assessment of something as supporting that something, then... well... how can I argue with that right?  Smiley

As to 'blame' Islam,  this an entire different question and topic all together.  And its far far more complicated than just Islam. 

To fully understand, the situation in the world right now, you have to at least go back to world war one.  You need to read up on the break up of the Ottoman Empire. On how the different states in the Middle East were formed and why.  Then you need to read up on world war 2, and the cold war that followed.  And see why some states are more allied to Russian / China  axis, and some towards Western influence. 

The bottom line is that Middle East throughout history had always been contested by various global powers.  You need to look past the veil of false pretension, and see the real motives behind various wars and attacks.  There... you will find that its more about the imperfection of man kind, rather than any religion.  I can guarantee you that had.. Mohammad failed in securing allies, and lost to the city of Medina, then, there will be another religion, another ideology in its place and the cycle of violence will still continue.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #81 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:16pm
 
Re Baron,

I think it really depends... 

https://www.google.com.au/search?ei=AM0uXNbIH4Ha8wXU34nYAg&q=khadijah+mother+of+the+believers&oq=khadija+mother+of+the+believers&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0i7i30j0i8i30j0i30.6824.8222..9222...0.0..0.366.2136.2-3j4......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i8i7i30._nlDCjyDzbw

And that is because... I think... the differences between Sunni and Shia.  But by all accounts, both Khadija and Aisha is worthy of such title.  Khadija was a prominent person, wealthy.  And in Mohammad's early years, he sought her opinion and judgements.  Aisha in later years, became an important leader and contributor in Islam. 

I am not discounting the Burkhari. But the fact is that there is big difference between different muslim sects when it comes to hadith.  For example, the Shia believe that no hadith is 100% authentic, and must be checked against the Quran and established principals.   

Now, if you look at it from a third person perspective.  You have a written account of someone who said something - the actual book is 100 to 200 years after the death of the person described within.   And you have people within the same faith not entirely sure of the authenticity of those words.  Can you then, still take those written words as absolute authentic? 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #82 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 2:31pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
Quote:
I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.


... in defense of Islam and Muhammad.

You also said we should not blame Islam for the problems that Muslims are inflicting on the world today. Are you now saying this is not defending Islam and Muhammad?


Well, freediver, if you treat anyone who seek to disagree with your assessment of something as supporting that something, then... well... how can I argue with that right?  Smiley

As to 'blame' Islam,  this an entire different question and topic all together.  And its far far more complicated than just Islam. 

To fully understand, the situation in the world right now, you have to at least go back to world war one.  You need to read up on the break up of the Ottoman Empire. On how the different states in the Middle East were formed and why.  Then you need to read up on world war 2, and the cold war that followed.  And see why some states are more allied to Russian / China  axis, and some towards Western influence. 

The bottom line is that Middle East throughout history had always been contested by various global powers.  You need to look past the veil of false pretension, and see the real motives behind various wars and attacks.  There... you will find that its more about the imperfection of man kind, rather than any religion.  I can guarantee you that had.. Mohammad failed in securing allies, and lost to the city of Medina, then, there will be another religion, another ideology in its place and the cycle of violence will still continue. 


No rose, I treat anyone who defends Islam by saying idiotic things like "we must not blame Islam" as defending Islam.

But would that other religion be anywhere near as bad as Islam? It is difficult to find one that is. Nazism, perhaps.

Also, other than vague allusions to WWI, how do you explain your position that ISIS and all the other Islamist extremist movements trying to destroy modern civilisation have nothing to do with Islam?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #83 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 3:18pm
 
Ah, I am glad that you ask actually.  I once read a passage off a translated Asian book, and it goes something like this:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

For simplicity sake, lets have the case study as ISIL for now.

ISIL if you remember was originally came to prominence after the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 to overthrow its dictator.  It existed in group prior to that in the 1990s, however, it was not a prominent, certainly lacked the power to take over parts of Iraq and Syria.   But after Iraq plunged into chaos in the following decade, and the start of Arab Spring and Syrian civil war.  ISIL took over large tracts of lands and named itself ISIL, and declared itself a world wide caliphate. 

They came to power, not through theological means, but through barbaric and violent treatment of people on the lands that it occupies. 

As those regions of middle east had been at war for many decades - through the struggles of US / Russia / China, and through local struggles between Sunni and Shia.  In those times of chaos, in order to control a region, the most effective method is for show of force and ruthlessness.   And hence they adopted a particular extemist view of Islam.   Something that, every other Islamic country in the region - including, Iraq, Iran, and even Saudi Arabia (well officially) disagrees. 

Under ISIL, people lived in hardship and fear.  And so people have no real loyalty towards them.  As such, both Russian aided Syrian force, and US aided Iraqi forces including kurdish were able to retake most of the areas.   

So, what ISIL is, is just another group with its leadership wanting a piece of pie in the Middle east, to control its people land wealth and power.   Sure, it uses a brand of Islam Extremistism as cover and excuse for conducting atrocities at the same time.  But, at its core, as a group, they reflect the fundamental flaws of humanity rather than a religion itself.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #84 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 4:46pm
 
Quote:
They came to power, not through theological means, but through barbaric and violent treatment of people on the lands that it occupies. 


Just like Muhammad did.

Can you explain how ISIL managed to recruit so many foreign jihadis, if not through "theological means"? Did they scare them all into flying halfway round the world to fight for the new Caliphate?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #85 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:29pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:10am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....

So communists and communism are two different things? Catholics and Catholicism? 

What you are telling us that only muslims who are take Islam seriously are the dangerous ones. The backsliders and part-timers and yeah-but-no-butters are harmless.



Depends how you draw the lines - most 'communists' live under a communist government - by definition a minority.  Most Catholics live quiet and non-extreme lives under a religious and secualr set of rules.  There are extreme communists and extreme Catholics who advocate killing others to further their beliefs... but these are few and far between and not 'mainstream' - unlike Islamism which has masses of adherents.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #86 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:14am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:41am:
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:21am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am:
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus. 


He was thrown out of his tribe ... ran to hide with the Medians .... got their trust found a few supporters and then slaughtered 800 & told the others to convert to his way or cop the same.

He was the exact opposite to Jesus.

He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.


From what I know, in earlier years, Mohammad was a merchant that travels alot.  He was driven out from Mecca because at the time, it had a polytheist religion.   The take over of Mecca in later years, was largely bloodless. 

By definition, anyone around those times living in those area, with a large army supporting him is a warlord. Before his death, he was able to unify most of Arabia under his banner.  And that is no small achievement. 

And you cant compare Mohammad to Jesus.  Because, in Christian belief, Jesus is god.  And even in Islam, Mohammad is not god, but a prophet of god. 

As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.


You're wrong there ... in Christianity Jesus is the son of God ... not God. Born of Mary by immaculate conception from God.

So in effect he was Gods prophet on earth .... just like Mohammad self claimed to be.

Quote:
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…


btw I'm not religious.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #87 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:22am
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?


Just like God slaughtered Egyptians and had sex with a Judean child?

Quote:
We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse.  God was how old when he committed adultery with a virgin child named Mary?

God was a paedo.



Since when was Mary, a married woman(Joseph) a child?

And if you had any preconceptions of God at anytime throughout your life ... why would he need to have physical sex with Mary?

Did you have to go taxi driving because you got the arse out of legal  advocacy because all you did was become a baseless argumentative pain?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #88 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:32am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:56pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:21pm:
Quote:
You have Aisha's own words, my arse.


Aussie your complete ignorance of what you are talking about is not evidence.

Quote:
Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.


And I am asking you why. All you have offered by way of explanation is excuses for Muhammad slaughtering Jews and having sex with children.

Quote:
Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.


You are misleading people with statistics. The low average was significantly affected by the high infant death rate. Do you know what the median age of death for adults was?

Quote:
And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.


Exactly. So how does this justify sex with 9 year old girls? Is there some kind of compulsion to have sex with children before they die from childhood diseases?

Quote:
Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile


Yes there was.

Quote:
I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well.


In the middle ages, slavery was coming to an end in Europe under the influence of Christianity, while Muslims were depopulating the coast of Italy by hunting little girls to have sex with.


Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.  Our ancestors at that time is no different.  And therefore, its a bit rich for you to stand high and mighty on your moral ground, criticizing in the 21st century.    But why stop there? Like Aussie said, even virgin Mary was a child when she was pregnant with Jesus.   Our christian priests are abusing children sexually. 

Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.  I am merely pointing out the historical context.  Mind you, Mohammad did not have sex with children.  Children means more than one.  Is there another one? 

And as to massacre the Jews.  Well, once again, it was largely a lawless world back then.  Its either you  kill the other, or the other kill you.


Yes he did ... and do you honestly think Aisha was the only one?  Grin

You seem to not to be able to translate the actions of this Mohammad person to the actions of his followers today ... some 1400 years on.

And Mohammad wasn't killing to save being killed ... he was killing to take out those who opposed him or would not convert  ....

All your responses have been generalised excuse making for a person who was a total maniac & paedophile ............. who now has 1.8 billion followers who put him up as the perfect individual & religious diety ... a messenger of God.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #89 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:40am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 



And when you mention that our ancestor at the time is no different.  I would have to disagree.  Read up on the 1st crusade, and in particular, the people's crusade, and the prince's crusade.  And you can make up the judgement yourself.   Smiley


That's exactly what you don't do.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #90 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:48am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 4:46pm:
Quote:
They came to power, not through theological means, but through barbaric and violent treatment of people on the lands that it occupies. 


Just like Muhammad did.

Can you explain how ISIL managed to recruit so many foreign jihadis, if not through "theological means"? Did they scare them all into flying halfway round the world to fight for the new Caliphate?


Boom Boom  Grin
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #91 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:33am
 
Re Gnads

Really? As far as I know, the origin of was Mohammad a pedophile comes from a criticism of him from a Dutch far right party person.   I am sure, if there are others, he would have quoted it as evidence. 

Gnads,  you need to read up on whats happening around the world and the region during those times.  There was no UN, there was no recognized country borders.  The strong lives, and weak dies.  That was our history.  And thats the same history every where you go. 

However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.   They revered him, because, prior to that, the people were scattered, in small groups, fighting amoungst each other, and at the same time being invaded by others.  By the end of his reign, the whole of Arabia is virtually under Islam. 

I can draw a parallel of him with the first Emperor of China.  You can say, that he too was a tyrant, he killed countless, and he was a child killer - using the children to make medicine that can allow him to live forever.  However, people in China still revered him, many criticized him, he was known as a tyrant.  But he was remembered for uniting the waring states, buidling the great wall (or start of), and standardize the language and mathematics.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #92 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:53am
 
Quote:
Really? As far as I know, the origin of was Mohammad a pedophile comes from a criticism of him from a Dutch far right party person.   I am sure, if there are others, he would have quoted it as evidence.
 

It comes from Muhammad having sex with little children.

Quote:
Gnads,  you need to read up on whats happening around the world and the region during those times.  There was no UN, there was no recognized country borders.


You have no clue.

Quote:
I can draw a parallel of him with the first Emperor of China.  You can say, that he too was a tyrant, he killed countless, and he was a child killer - using the children to make medicine that can allow him to live forever.  However, people in China still revered him, many criticized him, he was known as a tyrant.  But he was remembered for uniting the waring states, buidling the great wall (or start of), and standardize the language and mathematics.


No-one worships him today. People still have sex with children and slaughter innocent people because of Muhammad.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #93 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:03am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 4:46pm:
Quote:
They came to power, not through theological means, but through barbaric and violent treatment of people on the lands that it occupies. 


Just like Muhammad did.

Can you explain how ISIL managed to recruit so many foreign jihadis, if not through "theological means"? Did they scare them all into flying halfway round the world to fight for the new Caliphate?


But free diver, I dont think the foreign fighters joining the Islamic state out of fear. 

First of all, no matter how big Islamic state had been, it would never ever pose a threat to the existence of even Australia much less USA.  Yes, there can be smaller scale suicide attacks, all the way upto a 911.  However, the basis of western countries, its wealth, its tax base, its industry remain completely unharmed.   And the Islamic state know that once the west interferes against them, they will not stand a chance.   Hell, they couldnt even properly gain control of their own areas.   Had the USA not destroyed Iraq, or weakened Syria, then they were never able to exist as they were. 

So, what they want is asymmetrical warfare.  They promote their ideology as there is going to be a grand / end of days holy war between muslim and non muslim, and that they are on the right side through many forms of media.   They support their cause, by stating evidence of how people were killed via Western powers.  And they confound the evidence by not stating their own atrocity, stating that Western main stream media are not to be trusted (similar to what Trump is doing incidentally). 

This message then became very attractive to younger people.  You would find that most foreign fighters joining ISIL are often young men.  Now, if they are from poorer countries like Indonesia, its probably because they promise a '5 star' jihadi - as they provide pay, food, accomodation, a wife, and school for the kids.   In richer countries like Australia, well you find that often, those people have background issues with personality, criminality and mental health issue.   They are often socially inadequate.  And they wanted a sense of purpose in life in a society (right or wrong) that have rejected them. 

I think, we've seen this before just very recently, the rise of Nazism in Germany post world war 1.  It was a time where the economy is doing very poorly, and the entire country were suffering, being looked down upon as losers by other allied countries.  So people needed a quick answer, and Nazism filled the void.  And even though Hitler did unspeakable things, people followed him not because of the Nazism ideology (e.g. the master race quasi religion / mystic belief), but rather seeing him as a answer to their everyday woes, and the rest is history.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #94 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:14am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:53am:
Quote:
Really? As far as I know, the origin of was Mohammad a pedophile comes from a criticism of him from a Dutch far right party person.   I am sure, if there are others, he would have quoted it as evidence.
 

It comes from Muhammad having sex with little children.

Quote:
Gnads,  you need to read up on whats happening around the world and the region during those times.  There was no UN, there was no recognized country borders.


You have no clue.

Quote:
I can draw a parallel of him with the first Emperor of China.  You can say, that he too was a tyrant, he killed countless, and he was a child killer - using the children to make medicine that can allow him to live forever.  However, people in China still revered him, many criticized him, he was known as a tyrant.  But he was remembered for uniting the waring states, buidling the great wall (or start of), and standardize the language and mathematics.


No-one worships him today. People still have sex with children and slaughter innocent people because of Muhammad.


Any way.... as a summary, I have already given the historic view that the historic facts were in itself not completely reliable.  Please read the posts about hadith, the differences between sunni and shia when it comes to hadith, and take into account the time when the supposed 'eye witness' accounts were written.   Also, look at the historic context of whats happening regarding child brides through history of the world.   Its hard to argue with someone, who just after a few posts completely forget everything, and goes to square one. 

My basic principal is this...  People do horrible things, rape killing - with many different reasons.  But at the end of the day, it is not because of religion, law, or culture that driven them to do it.  Rather, its men's own inner imperfection.   I can guarantee even without Islam, or Christianity, there will still be sexual embarrassments against women and there will still be mass murder.    You are stating that I am making excuses.  But in doing so, in fact, you are making excuses for people who are doing the wrong things today.  We need see through the veils of their lies, expose them for what they are - imperfect humans who does things for their own personal gain.   And doing so, this would give us a better knowledge of why they are so attractive to their followers, so that we can start countering their tactics in the very basic levels of society. 

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #95 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:23am
 
Quote:
Please read the posts about hadith, the differences between sunni and shia when it comes to hadith


Do any of them disagree that Muhammad slaughtered Jews and had sex with children?

Quote:
and take into account the time when the supposed 'eye witness' accounts were written


If Muslims believe it, what is there to "take into account"?

Quote:
Also, look at the historic context of whats happening regarding child brides through history of the world.   Its hard to argue with someone, who just after a few posts completely forget everything, and goes to square one.
 

You haven't gotten to square one yet. Do you agree that while Christian Europe was abolishing slavery, Muslims were building an empire on rape, pillage and sex slavery? Or do you need to pick and choose the context?

Quote:
My basic principal is this...  People do horrible things, rape killing - in many different reasons.


Why do Muslims travel half way round the world to rape the infidel and die in the quest to impose the new Caliphate and destroy Iraqi democracy? Islam? Or do you have context for us to snivel over?

Quote:
But at the end of the day, it is not because of religion, law, or culture that driven them to do it.  Rather, its men's own inner imperfection.


There are plenty of imperfect people. But there's a big difference between imperfect and institutionalised rape and murder.

Quote:
I can guarantee even without Islam, or Christianity, there will still be sexual embarrassments against women and there will still be mass murder.    You are stating that I am making excuses.


You are making excuses in defense of Islam, for no apparent reason. Why do you describe the systematic capture and rape of Yazidi and other minorities as "sexual embarassment"? And what makes you think this would still be happening without Islam?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #96 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:36am
 
re Gnads

Quote:

You're wrong there ... in Christianity Jesus is the son of God ... not God. Born of Mary by immaculate conception from God.

So in effect he was Gods prophet on earth .... just like Mohammad self claimed to be.


As you see from my posts, I am probably a very bad religious person.  But, still go to church since its something that I do since I was very young. 

Is Jesus the son of God - yes, except for Jewish, both Islam and Christians believe so.  But whats differ is the principal of holy trinity.

One God and One Only
Exists in three Persons
Equal and Eternal
Worthy of equal praise and worship
Distinct yet acting in unity
Constituting the one true God of the Bible

Now, this is where it gets interesting.  Main stream churches, catholics, and most Protestants believe holy trinity, except for a few:
1. Mormons - the mormons believe that the trinity are three different being.
2. Jehova's witness - believes one god, Jesus is son of god, but not the god.  And the holy spirit is an active force. 

And of course, Islam does not believe in holy trinity.  They believe Jesus is a great messenger of god, and his teachings are fundamental to the muslim faith.   However, they believe that the principal view of holy trinity itself undermines the oneness of god.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #97 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 11:00am
 
Freediver, may be try to talk to a muslim, and you will find that they disagree with you that he was a pedophile.  With various texts, views and historic contexts we just being through.   

But however, I like to clarify, that you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.  I am just providing the forum with some historic context and opposing views.  So no hard feelings please. 

In terms of slavery, its not unique to either the Christians or the Muslims.  In fact, in places like China, where there is little to no influence of Islam, slavery was not abolished until the 1900.  And of course, the mid 1800s in USA just a bit after bans in Europe from early 1800s.   But the actual history of slavery predates even Christianity.  I mean the whole biblical story of Moses, is about slavery in Egypt, and Islam have absolutely nothing to do with that.   So I think its a bit rich to link slavery to a religion really.

In terms of institutionalized rape and murder.  Well, thats what happens when you have a group of imperfect people with power in their hands.  And its not unique to just Islam. 

In terms of systematic capture and rape of Yazidis women are perfect examples of the system of fear and intimidation employed by the Islamic State.  Ultimately, they want to subdue the population, basically snuff out any resistance.   It is the exact tatics employed by other invading forces throughout history of mankind.  A good case study would be the Japanese and the Germans in WW2.  Both of which are not religion related, but nevertheless, still happened. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #98 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:03pm
 
Rose can you explain how ISIL managed to recruit so many foreign jihadis, if not through "theological means"? Did they scare them all into flying halfway round the world to fight for the new Caliphate and destroy Iraq's new democracy? Why do you keep dodging this question? Would you like to retract your claim that it has nothing to do with Islam? Or keep sprouting it and running away when challenged?

Why do you say we must not blame Islam for what Muslims do in the name of Islam?

Also, why do you think there is a meaningful comparison between Muhammad and some long-dead Chinese warlord? Do any Chinese worship this warlord and rape and pillage in his name?

Quote:
Freediver, may be try to talk to a muslim, and you will find that they disagree with you that he was a pedophile.


They attempt to redefine pedophile, but they do that with slavery, rape, murder, genocide and all the other nasty things Muhammad did, without disputing any of the facts. It is mainstream Islamic belief that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl when he was over 50 years old. Trying to put a positive spin on sex with children does not mean Muhammad did not have sex with children.

Quote:
But however, I like to clarify, that you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.  I am just providing the forum with some historic context and opposing views.  So no hard feelings please.
 

You duck and weave at every turn.

Quote:
In terms of slavery, its not unique to either the Christians or the Muslims.


This is not context. This is destroying the context in defense of Islam. Do you agree that while Christian Europe was abolishing slavery, Muslims were building an empire on rape, pillage and sex slavery?

Quote:
But the actual history of slavery predates even Christianity.  I mean the whole biblical story of Moses, is about slavery in Egypt, and Islam have absolutely nothing to do with that.   So I think its a bit rich to link slavery to a religion really.


Only a complete idiot would interpret what I said that way.

Quote:
In terms of institutionalized rape and murder.  Well, thats what happens when you have a group of imperfect people with power in their hands.  And its not unique to just Islam.
 

It's what happens when a religion is built on rape and murder.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #99 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:21pm
 
Quote:
They attempt to redefine pedophile, but they do that with slavery, rape, murder, genocide and all the other nasty things Muhammad did, without disputing any of the facts. It is mainstream Islamic belief that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl when he was over 50 years old. Trying to put a positive spin on sex with children does not mean Muhammad did not have sex with children.


That is one of the horses you love riding to death Effendi, and you keep ignoring the fact that God, it is said by Christians, in an act of adultery, impregnated the virgin child Bride of Joseph and at that time who knows how old God was.  Can you explain why Christians follow the word of such an adulterous paedophile?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #100 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:18pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:33am:
Re Gnads

Really? As far as I know, the origin of was Mohammad a pedophile comes from a criticism of him from a Dutch far right party person.   I am sure, if there are others, he would have quoted it as evidence. 

Gnads,  you need to read up on whats happening around the world and the region during those times.  There was no UN, there was no recognized country borders.  The strong lives, and weak dies.  That was our history.  And thats the same history every where you go. 

However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.   They revered him, because, prior to that, the people were scattered, in small groups, fighting amoungst each other, and at the same time being invaded by others.  By the end of his reign, the whole of Arabia is virtually under Islam. 

I can draw a parallel of him with the first Emperor of China.  You can say, that he too was a tyrant, he killed countless, and he was a child killer - using the children to make medicine that can allow him to live forever.  However, people in China still revered him, many criticized him, he was known as a tyrant.  But he was remembered for uniting the waring states, buidling the great wall (or start of), and standardize the language and mathematics. 


Rubbish it was well known long before Geert Wilders was known or a Political aspirant.

Honestly do you think there has only been criticism of radical Islamists since the invention of "far left" or far right" politics.

If you want to go on about history ... then realise that the fight against the spread of Islamic oppression has been going on ever since its inception in 700 ad.

And 1400 yrs later they are still following an all encompassing patriarchal,fascist ideology with same primitive attitudes.

Whilst the rest of the world & religion has evolved to more civilized standards of societal acceptance.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #101 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:22pm
 
Every history of Mo states that he married an under-age girl and consummated the marriage pre-puberty.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #102 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:31pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
Quote:
They attempt to redefine pedophile, but they do that with slavery, rape, murder, genocide and all the other nasty things Muhammad did, without disputing any of the facts. It is mainstream Islamic belief that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl when he was over 50 years old. Trying to put a positive spin on sex with children does not mean Muhammad did not have sex with children.


That is one of the horses you love riding to death Effendi, and you keep ignoring the fact that God, it is said by Christians, in an act of adultery, impregnated the virgin child Bride of Joseph and at that time who knows how old God was.  Can you explain why Christians follow the word of such an adulterous paedophile?


Repetitious bs Aussie ... as an omnipotent God
that no one can see .... and in the light of so called biblical miracles & curses that have supposedly occurred why do you persist with the notion that God had a physical relationship to impregnate Mary immaculately?

If you had suggested physical relationships by Jesus or Muhammad you may have a point.

But as a comparison i.e God to Muhammads actions

you don't have a point ... score zero.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #103 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:37pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:31pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
Quote:
They attempt to redefine pedophile, but they do that with slavery, rape, murder, genocide and all the other nasty things Muhammad did, without disputing any of the facts. It is mainstream Islamic belief that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl when he was over 50 years old. Trying to put a positive spin on sex with children does not mean Muhammad did not have sex with children.


That is one of the horses you love riding to death Effendi, and you keep ignoring the fact that God, it is said by Christians, in an act of adultery, impregnated the virgin child Bride of Joseph and at that time who knows how old God was.  Can you explain why Christians follow the word of such an adulterous paedophile?


Repetitious bs Aussie ... as an omnipotent God
that no one can see .... and in the light of so called biblical miracles & curses that have supposedly occurred why do you persist with the notion that God had a physical relationship to impregnate Mary immaculately?

If you had suggested physical relationships by Jesus or Muhammad you may have a point.

But as a comparison i.e God to Muhammads actions

you don't have a point ... score zero.


Repetitious?  Gawd, do you not read Effendi.  He never stops regaling us with the tale of an alleged paedo Mo, yet he ignores that Christian history is rife with it.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #104 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:44pm
 
To this day Muslims campaign against minimum age of consent laws because their religion prevents them from even suggesting Muhammad might have done something wrong by having sex with children.

But Aussie would rather see those children continue to get raped than acknowledge the role Islam plays- hence his moronic BS about god having sex.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #105 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:54pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
To this day Muslims campaign against minimum age of consent laws because their religion prevents them from even suggesting Muhammad might have done something wrong by having sex with children.

But Aussie would rather see those children continue to get raped than acknowledge the role Islam plays- hence his moronic BS about god having sex.


Ah...so you are calling the Old Testament moronic bullshit.  Fine by me, Effendi.  I agree 100%.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #106 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:56pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:37pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:31pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
Quote:
They attempt to redefine pedophile, but they do that with slavery, rape, murder, genocide and all the other nasty things Muhammad did, without disputing any of the facts. It is mainstream Islamic belief that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl when he was over 50 years old. Trying to put a positive spin on sex with children does not mean Muhammad did not have sex with children.


That is one of the horses you love riding to death Effendi, and you keep ignoring the fact that God, it is said by Christians, in an act of adultery, impregnated the virgin child Bride of Joseph and at that time who knows how old God was.  Can you explain why Christians follow the word of such an adulterous paedophile?


Repetitious bs Aussie ... as an omnipotent God
that no one can see .... and in the light of so called biblical miracles & curses that have supposedly occurred why do you persist with the notion that God had a physical relationship to impregnate Mary immaculately?

If you had suggested physical relationships by Jesus or Muhammad you may have a point.

But as a comparison i.e God to Muhammads actions

you don't have a point ... score zero.


Repetitious?  Gawd, do you not read Effendi.  He never stops regaling us with the tale of an alleged paedo Mo, yet he ignores that Christian history is rife with it.


So you think regaling us with BS that God had an adulterous sexual relationship with Mary is a winning counter point?  Roll Eyes

There's nothing alleged about Mo being a paedo ... he was. So were any 50 yr old men in that era who were having sex with 9 yr olds.

And btw it wasn't just with young girls ...boys as well.

https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/brinkley/article/Afghanistan-s-dirty-little-secre...

Quote:
For centuries, Afghan men have taken boys, roughly 9 to 15 years old, as lovers.


Quote:
"Having a boy has become a custom for us," Enayatullah, a 42-year-old in Baghlan province, told a Reuters reporter. "Whoever wants to show off should have a boy."


Quote:
And how did Afghanistan become the pedophilia capital of Asia?

Sociologists and anthropologists say the problem results from perverse interpretation of Islamic law. Women are simply unapproachable. Afghan men cannot talk to an unrelated woman until after proposing marriage. Before then, they can't even look at a woman, except perhaps her feet. Otherwise she is covered, head to ankle.

"How can you fall in love if you can't see her face," 29-year-old Mohammed Daud told reporters. "We can see the boys, so we can tell which are beautiful."


Even after marriage, many men keep their boys, suggesting a loveless life at home. A favored Afghan expression goes: "Women are for children, boys are for pleasure." Fundamentalist imams, exaggerating a biblical passage on menstruation, teach that women are "unclean" and therefore distasteful. One married man even asked Cardinalli's team "how his wife could become pregnant," her report said. When that was explained, he "reacted with disgust" and asked, "How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean?"

That helps explain why women are hidden away - and stoned to death if they are perceived to have misbehaved. Islamic law also forbids homosexuality. But the pedophiles explain that away. It's not homosexuality, they aver, because they aren't in love with their boys.


They aren't they only Muslims who do this. Today.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #107 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:07pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:54pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
To this day Muslims campaign against minimum age of consent laws because their religion prevents them from even suggesting Muhammad might have done something wrong by having sex with children.

But Aussie would rather see those children continue to get raped than acknowledge the role Islam plays- hence his moronic BS about god having sex.


Ah...so you are calling the Old Testament moronic bullshit.  Fine by me, Effendi.  I agree 100%.


OK Aussie you told us all you have no clue about Islam, but seriously? Jesus is the new testament.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #108 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:16pm
 
tickleandrose wrote:

reply 36
Quote:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament,


muslims believe in an injeel / N.T. that their version of Yeheshua bought with him (the truth being that the N.T. started about 100 years after the death of Christ), they also believe that their version of Yeheshua / Jesus will return to earth and break the cross and kill all Christians who refuse to convert to islam.

Reply #38
Quote:
In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".


1/. Use of word allah: Of course they do under pain of death if they dared to say allah wasn't God.

2/. Abrahamic faith: Why does islam retain many of the pagan moon god rituals e.g.:

allah the moon god (reinvented into a monotheistic god),

The Kaba,

The black stone,

Kissing the black stone

Walking around the black stone

Praying towards towards Mecca 5 times a day,

muslim holy month starts at new moon

Crescent moon symbol

Pagan moon god allahs' three daughters part of qur'an (originally the satanic verses)

"The Run"  between As-Safa and Al-Marwah.

Throwing stones at evil spirits.

Reply #91
Quote:
However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.


1.8 billion muslims follow muhammads reinvented version of the pagan moon god allah, muhammad turned the old moon god allah into a god of hatred, a god who declared that muhammad was the perfect example for mankind, a god who said rape torture and mass murder were O.K..

if you're going to try the old *but the old testament said the same things* excuse I'll answer that now: the O.T. is written in the past tense it's stories are all related to long gone past events of the Hebrew people.

The qur'an is written in the present and future tense, that's why muslims today 2019 are committing the most heinous of human rights atrocities against their fellow man, they are following the best example muhammad all of them certain they will get the hour'is with big tits and the little boys scattered like pearls in paradise.

Today right now 2019 there is no other religion that has its' members listed as the top 26 (last time I looked) terrorist organizations, no other religion has its' members as the worlds' refugee problem, no other religion which starves and murders children in the tens of thousands like the followers of islam do, no other religion rapes little girls with their forced child marriage like muslim do.

When are you going to stop making excuses for this evil reinvented pagan moon god cult?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #109 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:07pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:54pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
To this day Muslims campaign against minimum age of consent laws because their religion prevents them from even suggesting Muhammad might have done something wrong by having sex with children.

But Aussie would rather see those children continue to get raped than acknowledge the role Islam plays- hence his moronic BS about god having sex.


Ah...so you are calling the Old Testament moronic bullshit.  Fine by me, Effendi.  I agree 100%.


OK Aussie you told us all you have no clue about Islam, but seriously? Jesus is the new testament.


My bad.  I should have said New Testament.  So you finally agree it too is moronic bullshit.  I agree 100%.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #110 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 5:04pm
 
tickleandrose  wrote: Reply #94

Quote:
People do horrible things, rape killing - with many different reasons.  But at the end of the day, it is not because of religion, law, or culture that driven them to do it.


The treatment of baby girls, little girls born into the wrong situation, and lower class women in general, in India, is absolutely apalling, I believe this is because of culture and religion.


I agree with you that there are some sick individuals who torture and murder innocent women  / girls also.

Now to get to religious doctrine having an effect on behaviour, Christianity comes out the best when it comes to respective doctrine e.g.:

N.t.: Quote:
John 8:3  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
John 8:4  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
John 8:5  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
John 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her


Christ represents forgiveness and compassion.

qur'an Quote:
qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death claims them.

qur'an 4.34: Men are the maintainers of women because allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely allah is high, great.

qur’an 24:33 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Same old same old, islam is all about rape, bashing women and locking them in a house until they die.

------and we still have the sicko leftards arguing for and excusing islam.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #111 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:19am
 
moses wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:16pm:
tickleandrose wrote:

reply 36
Quote:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament,


muslims believe in an injeel / N.T. that their version of Yeheshua bought with him (the truth being that the N.T. started about 100 years after the death of Christ), they also believe that their version of Yeheshua / Jesus will return to earth and break the cross and kill all Christians who refuse to convert to islam.

Reply #38
Quote:
In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".


1/. Use of word allah: Of course they do under pain of death if they dared to say allah wasn't God.

2/. Abrahamic faith: Why does islam retain many of the pagan moon god rituals e.g.:

allah the moon god (reinvented into a monotheistic god),

The Kaba,

The black stone,

Kissing the black stone

Walking around the black stone

Praying towards towards Mecca 5 times a day,

muslim holy month starts at new moon

Crescent moon symbol

Pagan moon god allahs' three daughters part of qur'an (originally the satanic verses)

"The Run"  between As-Safa and Al-Marwah.

Throwing stones at evil spirits.

Reply #91
Quote:
However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.


1.8 billion muslims follow muhammads reinvented version of the pagan moon god allah, muhammad turned the old moon god allah into a god of hatred, a god who declared that muhammad was the perfect example for mankind, a god who said rape torture and mass murder were O.K..

if you're going to try the old *but the old testament said the same things* excuse I'll answer that now: the O.T. is written in the past tense it's stories are all related to long gone past events of the Hebrew people.

The qur'an is written in the present and future tense, that's why muslims today 2019 are committing the most heinous of human rights atrocities against their fellow man, they are following the best example muhammad all of them certain they will get the hour'is with big tits and the little boys scattered like pearls in paradise.

Today right now 2019 there is no other religion that has its' members listed as the top 26 (last time I looked) terrorist organizations, no other religion has its' members as the worlds' refugee problem, no other religion which starves and murders children in the tens of thousands like the followers of islam do, no other religion rapes little girls with their forced child marriage like muslim do.

When are you going to stop making excuses for this evil reinvented pagan moon god cult?


Again this is where the religion differs.  Christianity and Islam have alot of similarities, however, the core belief are different.   Christianity also have many pagan roots.  This is how religion developed over time.  For example:

Halloween: observed by western Christians, and widely celebrated in USA and Australia.  Was in fact linked to Gaelic and Welsh influence.

Christmas: perhaps the most important day after Easter, was a pagan holiday making the winter solstice.

The actual symbol of Santa Clause is infact designed by Coca Cola, even.  So you can say its strictly pagan symbol as well if go by a more hardline doctrine. 

However, what use is that to debate about something that is theological and cannot be proven?  So what if its moon god, so what if the Christmas was a pagan holiday.  At the end of day, it is how we treat each other right now, at this life time that matters.



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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #112 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:24am
 
moses wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 5:04pm:
tickleandrose  wrote: Reply #94

Quote:
People do horrible things, rape killing - with many different reasons.  But at the end of the day, it is not because of religion, law, or culture that driven them to do it.


The treatment of baby girls, little girls born into the wrong situation, and lower class women in general, in India, is absolutely apalling, I believe this is because of culture and religion.


I agree with you that there are some sick individuals who torture and murder innocent women  / girls also.

Now to get to religious doctrine having an effect on behaviour, Christianity comes out the best when it comes to respective doctrine e.g.:

N.t.: Quote:
John 8:3  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
John 8:4  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
John 8:5  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
John 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her


Christ represents forgiveness and compassion.

qur'an Quote:
qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death claims them.

qur'an 4.34: Men are the maintainers of women because allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely allah is high, great.

qur’an 24:33 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Same old same old, islam is all about rape, bashing women and locking them in a house until they die.

------and we still have the sicko leftards arguing for and excusing islam.


They are doing horrible things because there is an environment for them to which this occurs.  In India, not only there is caste system, there is also unequal treatment of woman.  As such the judiciary system was heavily biased.   This allowed crimes not to be punished in the first place, and so the so called 'culture' arised after that.

The same is in Afghanistan.  They do things that they like, raping kids, and no one hold them accountable.  So they make excuses, they could have easily have said, so? I did it, what are you doing to do about it.  But, had they tried to do this as a common man in say even Saudi Arabia, they are likely to face the death penalty by the religious police.  Again, its about people's position, and what they can get away with. 

And the same was in Australia.  We just had a royal commission into institutionalized child sex abuse.  And we have uncovered, wide spread cover up of sexual abuse, including rape, perpetrated by clergies, and also people in power.  The victims are often left to fend for themselves with no justice.    This even occurred in our parts of world where laws were designed to protect children and yet was useless.   Someone in say Japan or China would read this on their news, and reckon all Christians are child rapists but is that a fair assessment of all Christians? 

No it goes beyond just Christians and Muslims. Rape, and murder have existed long before these two religions, and existed where those religions werent.  The existence of Christian and Islam are short comparing to the evolutionary history of mankind.    I can guarantee that rape and murder will continue long after Christianity and Islam cease to exist.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #113 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:20am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:33am:
Re Gnads

Really? As far as I know, the origin of was Mohammad a pedophile comes from a criticism of him from a Dutch far right party person.   I am sure, if there are others, he would have quoted it as evidence. 

Gnads,  you need to read up on whats happening around the world and the region during those times.  There was no UN, there was no recognized country borders.  The strong lives, and weak dies.  That was our history.  And thats the same history every where you go. 

However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.   They revered him, because, prior to that, the people were scattered, in small groups, fighting amoungst each other, and at the same time being invaded by others.  By the end of his reign, the whole of Arabia is virtually under Islam. 

I can draw a parallel of him with the first Emperor of China.  You can say, that he too was a tyrant, he killed countless, and he was a child killer - using the children to make medicine that can allow him to live forever.  However, people in China still revered him, many criticized him, he was known as a tyrant.  But he was remembered for uniting the waring states, buidling the great wall (or start of), and standardize the language and mathematics. 


Rubbish it was well known long before Geert Wilders was known or a Political aspirant.

Honestly do you think there has only been criticism of radical Islamists since the invention of "far left" or far right" politics.

If you want to go on about history ... then realise that the fight against the spread of Islamic oppression has been going on ever since its inception in 700 ad.

And 1400 yrs later they are still following an all encompassing patriarchal,fascist ideology with same primitive attitudes.

Whilst the rest of the world & religion has evolved to more civilized standards of societal acceptance.   


Hey I am glad you raised this issue.  I always had a big interest in medieval history as a child.  And the crusades are some of my favorites.   Oh the fighting between Islam, and Christian states had been going on for a long time.  But then, Christian states had been at war with.... just about everyone else any way.  In fact, it is the protracted, bloody, and costly war between the Byzantine and the Persians, that gave Mohammad in Arabia the breathing space to create Islam.   So, there is a bit of trivia there for you. 

The most famous fights and wars that Christians have lead against the Muslims were the crusades.  And I always consider the first Crusade as the watershed moment.  BUT, under neath the veil of religions war, are the crusades REALLY to help liberate and enlighten the promised lands?   

Pre Crusade Europe was largely many Christian smaller states at war with each other.  The pope that started the crusades is the one named Pope Urban II, based in France.  However, he was struggling with his authority, as there was another pope!  Clement III in Rome!   So when the call for help arrived from the Eastern Alexios, against the Seljuk Turks, he used that as opportunity to consolidate his position in the church.   

Yes... the first crusade, started with this man, a human being with imperfection.   What happened afterwards, how many died on each sides of the conflict, all in the name of Jesus and god to the masses.  But in its core, a man's struggle against his own inner demon. 

You mentioned that 1400 later, the rest of the world have progressed?  This is because, we humans tend to have a very short memory.  The scourge of world war 2 was not that distant yet.  Perhaps, a look what the Germans did would refresh your memory.  The reason why we have not had any of those atrocities on our shores, is because since World war 2, we had taken our war to other people's home and land. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #114 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:34am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:19am:
moses wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:16pm:
tickleandrose wrote:

reply 36
Quote:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament,


muslims believe in an injeel / N.T. that their version of Yeheshua bought with him (the truth being that the N.T. started about 100 years after the death of Christ), they also believe that their version of Yeheshua / Jesus will return to earth and break the cross and kill all Christians who refuse to convert to islam.

Reply #38
Quote:
In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".


1/. Use of word allah: Of course they do under pain of death if they dared to say allah wasn't God.

2/. Abrahamic faith: Why does islam retain many of the pagan moon god rituals e.g.:

allah the moon god (reinvented into a monotheistic god),

The Kaba,

The black stone,

Kissing the black stone

Walking around the black stone

Praying towards towards Mecca 5 times a day,

muslim holy month starts at new moon

Crescent moon symbol

Pagan moon god allahs' three daughters part of qur'an (originally the satanic verses)

"The Run"  between As-Safa and Al-Marwah.

Throwing stones at evil spirits.

Reply #91
Quote:
However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.


1.8 billion muslims follow muhammads reinvented version of the pagan moon god allah, muhammad turned the old moon god allah into a god of hatred, a god who declared that muhammad was the perfect example for mankind, a god who said rape torture and mass murder were O.K..

if you're going to try the old *but the old testament said the same things* excuse I'll answer that now: the O.T. is written in the past tense it's stories are all related to long gone past events of the Hebrew people.

The qur'an is written in the present and future tense, that's why muslims today 2019 are committing the most heinous of human rights atrocities against their fellow man, they are following the best example muhammad all of them certain they will get the hour'is with big tits and the little boys scattered like pearls in paradise.

Today right now 2019 there is no other religion that has its' members listed as the top 26 (last time I looked) terrorist organizations, no other religion has its' members as the worlds' refugee problem, no other religion which starves and murders children in the tens of thousands like the followers of islam do, no other religion rapes little girls with their forced child marriage like muslim do.

When are you going to stop making excuses for this evil reinvented pagan moon god cult?


Again this is where the religion differs.  Christianity and Islam have alot of similarities, however, the core belief are different.   Christianity also have many pagan roots.  This is how religion developed over time.  For example:

Halloween: observed by western Christians, and widely celebrated in USA and Australia.  Was in fact linked to Gaelic and Welsh influence.

Christmas: perhaps the most important day after Easter, was a pagan holiday making the winter solstice.

The actual symbol of Santa Clause is infact designed by Coca Cola, even.  So you can say its strictly pagan symbol as well if go by a more hardline doctrine. 

However, what use is that to debate about something that is theological and cannot be proven?  So what if its moon god, so what if the Christmas was a pagan holiday.  At the end of day, it is how we treat each other right now, at this life time that matters.




This pretty hollow stuff. As you concede, your examples are of no use when discussinv theology. But then you seem to say that theology itself is not shedding light on why people treat each other differently.  Muslims today stone others to death exactly for theological reasons alone. Jews, who used to do the same do not do it at all without being any less religious.


People create their societies in the image of their gods. That illuminates a lot about deeply Islamic societies. Both Allah and Mohammed are pretty nasty characters and following them closely and devoutly leads to pretty mean and nasty societies. Improvement to those societies comes only when they leave off being devotees to their gid and and prophet and stop creating their society in devotion to them.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #115 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:37am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:03pm:
Rose can you explain how ISIL managed to recruit so many foreign jihadis, if not through "theological means"? Did they scare them all into flying halfway round the world to fight for the new Caliphate and destroy Iraq's new democracy? Why do you keep dodging this question? Would you like to retract your claim that it has nothing to do with Islam? Or keep sprouting it and running away when challenged?

Why do you say we must not blame Islam for what Muslims do in the name of Islam?

Also, why do you think there is a meaningful comparison between Muhammad and some long-dead Chinese warlord? Do any Chinese worship this warlord and rape and pillage in his name?

Quote:
Freediver, may be try to talk to a muslim, and you will find that they disagree with you that he was a pedophile.


They attempt to redefine pedophile, but they do that with slavery, rape, murder, genocide and all the other nasty things Muhammad did, without disputing any of the facts. It is mainstream Islamic belief that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl when he was over 50 years old. Trying to put a positive spin on sex with children does not mean Muhammad did not have sex with children.

Quote:
But however, I like to clarify, that you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.  I am just providing the forum with some historic context and opposing views.  So no hard feelings please.
 

You duck and weave at every turn.

Quote:
In terms of slavery, its not unique to either the Christians or the Muslims.


This is not context. This is destroying the context in defense of Islam. Do you agree that while Christian Europe was abolishing slavery, Muslims were building an empire on rape, pillage and sex slavery?

Quote:
But the actual history of slavery predates even Christianity.  I mean the whole biblical story of Moses, is about slavery in Egypt, and Islam have absolutely nothing to do with that.   So I think its a bit rich to link slavery to a religion really.


Only a complete idiot would interpret what I said that way.

Quote:
In terms of institutionalized rape and murder.  Well, thats what happens when you have a group of imperfect people with power in their hands.  And its not unique to just Islam.
 

It's what happens when a religion is built on rape and murder.


Okay, you are trying to tie up alot of different things together.   If terms of the original issue, Mohammad and the pedophile - I have stated some historic context.  For example the original evidence, was if you look from a modern legal perspective, its really on shaky grounds. 

Also, Islam extremitism, what drove those recruits / foreign, I have addressed that in a post above, you've asked that just one day prior.   Smiley
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #116 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:58am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:34am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:19am:
moses wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:16pm:
tickleandrose wrote:

reply 36
Quote:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament,


muslims believe in an injeel / N.T. that their version of Yeheshua bought with him (the truth being that the N.T. started about 100 years after the death of Christ), they also believe that their version of Yeheshua / Jesus will return to earth and break the cross and kill all Christians who refuse to convert to islam.

Reply #38
Quote:
In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".


1/. Use of word allah: Of course they do under pain of death if they dared to say allah wasn't God.

2/. Abrahamic faith: Why does islam retain many of the pagan moon god rituals e.g.:

allah the moon god (reinvented into a monotheistic god),

The Kaba,

The black stone,

Kissing the black stone

Walking around the black stone

Praying towards towards Mecca 5 times a day,

muslim holy month starts at new moon

Crescent moon symbol

Pagan moon god allahs' three daughters part of qur'an (originally the satanic verses)

"The Run"  between As-Safa and Al-Marwah.

Throwing stones at evil spirits.

Reply #91
Quote:
However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.


1.8 billion muslims follow muhammads reinvented version of the pagan moon god allah, muhammad turned the old moon god allah into a god of hatred, a god who declared that muhammad was the perfect example for mankind, a god who said rape torture and mass murder were O.K..

if you're going to try the old *but the old testament said the same things* excuse I'll answer that now: the O.T. is written in the past tense it's stories are all related to long gone past events of the Hebrew people.

The qur'an is written in the present and future tense, that's why muslims today 2019 are committing the most heinous of human rights atrocities against their fellow man, they are following the best example muhammad all of them certain they will get the hour'is with big tits and the little boys scattered like pearls in paradise.

Today right now 2019 there is no other religion that has its' members listed as the top 26 (last time I looked) terrorist organizations, no other religion has its' members as the worlds' refugee problem, no other religion which starves and murders children in the tens of thousands like the followers of islam do, no other religion rapes little girls with their forced child marriage like muslim do.

When are you going to stop making excuses for this evil reinvented pagan moon god cult?


Again this is where the religion differs.  Christianity and Islam have alot of similarities, however, the core belief are different.   Christianity also have many pagan roots.  This is how religion developed over time.  For example:

Halloween: observed by western Christians, and widely celebrated in USA and Australia.  Was in fact linked to Gaelic and Welsh influence.

Christmas: perhaps the most important day after Easter, was a pagan holiday making the winter solstice.

The actual symbol of Santa Clause is infact designed by Coca Cola, even.  So you can say its strictly pagan symbol as well if go by a more hardline doctrine. 

However, what use is that to debate about something that is theological and cannot be proven?  So what if its moon god, so what if the Christmas was a pagan holiday.  At the end of day, it is how we treat each other right now, at this life time that matters.




This pretty hollow stuff. As you concede, your examples are of no use when discussinv theology. But then you seem to say that theology itself is not shedding light on why people treat each other differently.  Muslims today stone others to death exactly for theological reasons alone. Jews, who used to do the same do not do it at all without being any less religious.


People create their societies in the image of their gods. That illuminates a lot about deeply Islamic societies. Both Allah and Mohammed are pretty nasty characters and following them closely and devoutly leads to pretty mean and nasty societies. Improvement to those societies comes only when they leave off being devotees to their gid and and prophet and stop creating their society in devotion to them.



I disagree. I believe, religion are at its core man made concepts.  For better or for worse, and those concepts being used to subjugate and control the population, often to further their own agendas.  And the result, is that its the civilians, the woman and children that suffers the most.  To say that man creating their society in the image of their gods, I say that images of gods were created by imperfect men. 

The separation of religion and state can only go so far.  But a strong middle class, and a peaceful regional geopolitical situation with effective law enforcement - are also required for a free and fair society.   Sadly, many counties in the middle East and Africa do not have those.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #117 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:35am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:58am:
Frank wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:34am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:19am:
moses wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:16pm:
tickleandrose wrote:

reply 36
Quote:
Islam actually also believe in the New Testament,


muslims believe in an injeel / N.T. that their version of Yeheshua bought with him (the truth being that the N.T. started about 100 years after the death of Christ), they also believe that their version of Yeheshua / Jesus will return to earth and break the cross and kill all Christians who refuse to convert to islam.

Reply #38
Quote:
In fact, Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".


1/. Use of word allah: Of course they do under pain of death if they dared to say allah wasn't God.

2/. Abrahamic faith: Why does islam retain many of the pagan moon god rituals e.g.:

allah the moon god (reinvented into a monotheistic god),

The Kaba,

The black stone,

Kissing the black stone

Walking around the black stone

Praying towards towards Mecca 5 times a day,

muslim holy month starts at new moon

Crescent moon symbol

Pagan moon god allahs' three daughters part of qur'an (originally the satanic verses)

"The Run"  between As-Safa and Al-Marwah.

Throwing stones at evil spirits.

Reply #91
Quote:
However, you must realize that 1.8 billion followers today ultimately follows the old god, the same god that was Christian and Jewish.  To them, Mohammad was the last messenger.


1.8 billion muslims follow muhammads reinvented version of the pagan moon god allah, muhammad turned the old moon god allah into a god of hatred, a god who declared that muhammad was the perfect example for mankind, a god who said rape torture and mass murder were O.K..

if you're going to try the old *but the old testament said the same things* excuse I'll answer that now: the O.T. is written in the past tense it's stories are all related to long gone past events of the Hebrew people.

The qur'an is written in the present and future tense, that's why muslims today 2019 are committing the most heinous of human rights atrocities against their fellow man, they are following the best example muhammad all of them certain they will get the hour'is with big tits and the little boys scattered like pearls in paradise.

Today right now 2019 there is no other religion that has its' members listed as the top 26 (last time I looked) terrorist organizations, no other religion has its' members as the worlds' refugee problem, no other religion which starves and murders children in the tens of thousands like the followers of islam do, no other religion rapes little girls with their forced child marriage like muslim do.

When are you going to stop making excuses for this evil reinvented pagan moon god cult?


Again this is where the religion differs.  Christianity and Islam have alot of similarities, however, the core belief are different.   Christianity also have many pagan roots.  This is how religion developed over time.  For example:

Halloween: observed by western Christians, and widely celebrated in USA and Australia.  Was in fact linked to Gaelic and Welsh influence.

Christmas: perhaps the most important day after Easter, was a pagan holiday making the winter solstice.

The actual symbol of Santa Clause is infact designed by Coca Cola, even.  So you can say its strictly pagan symbol as well if go by a more hardline doctrine. 

However, what use is that to debate about something that is theological and cannot be proven?  So what if its moon god, so what if the Christmas was a pagan holiday.  At the end of day, it is how we treat each other right now, at this life time that matters.




This pretty hollow stuff. As you concede, your examples are of no use when discussinv theology. But then you seem to say that theology itself is not shedding light on why people treat each other differently.  Muslims today stone others to death exactly for theological reasons alone. Jews, who used to do the same do not do it at all without being any less religious.


People create their societies in the image of their gods. That illuminates a lot about deeply Islamic societies. Both Allah and Mohammed are pretty nasty characters and following them closely and devoutly leads to pretty mean and nasty societies. Improvement to those societies comes only when they leave off being devotees to their gid and and prophet and stop creating their society in devotion to them.



I disagree. I believe, religion are at its core man made concepts.  For better or for worse, and those concepts being used to subjugate and control the population, often to further their own agendas.  And the result, is that its the civilians, the woman and children that suffers the most.  To say that man creating their society in the image of their gods, I say that images of gods were created by imperfect men. 

The separation of religion and state can only go so far.  But a strong middle class, and a peaceful regional geopolitical situation with effective law enforcement - are also required for a free and fair society.   Sadly, many counties in the middle East and Africa do not have those. 


Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #118 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:36am
 
'Only so far' - how far is that?

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #119 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am
 
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #120 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 12:35pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 


Good grief what don't you get about a religion & it's Holy men who teach that women are unclean & they have to be covered up head to toe is going to cause the men to go looking elsewhere?

Besides the little boys ... the goats, donkeys, camels etc. cop a lot of man love.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #121 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:01pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 12:35pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 


Good grief what don't you get about a religion & it's Holy men who teach that women are unclean & they have to be covered up head to toe is going to cause the men to go looking elsewhere?

Besides the little boys ... the goats, donkeys, camels etc. cop a lot of man love.


Gnad, let me make this very very clear to you.  All of this.. religion stuff, they are man made.  They made it in a time, where science and technology are not advanced, however, human mind need some sort of 'explanation' for the things we cant explain.  Sharia law was man made.  But the main purpose of which, is to control the population by the ruling class. 

And besides, the concept that woman are not clean, predates Islam.  The concept of sinfulness of mankind and that of woman had its roots in Christianity, in the form of Original sin.

Now, why basically every region in the world seek to control women?  When you look through the veils of tradition, it boils down to survival.  In the past, if a tribe, or country wants to survive, it need to have a strong military and economy.  There can be no military not economy without a healthy fighting and working population.  Controlling the women is about controlling the fertility.   And religion is one of ways that our ruling class have devised to rule us and to divide us. 

For example, back in the medieval times, marrying outside religions (Christians and pagans, Christians and Muslims), or even within religion (protestants and catholics) were seen as highly forbidden, even as bad as marrying outside your class / caste.   They are tools to control to subjugate us for their gains. 

You need to transcend your thought process.  We are lucky that we live in Australia, under secular governance.  It is an opportunity that not everyone in the world has.  See through the illusions that other have created around you, go and make a friend with a muslim. See him not as a Muslim, an Arabic, or an Asian, see him as a human being.  And then all of sudden two person would be happy instead of none.  Smiley 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #122 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:30pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 

You are completely naive, arent you?

'Rational and objective' are themselves concepts, as is the idea of having different perspectives, a metaphore made from applying the sensory experience of seeing to comprehending the world conceptually which is not a visual experience.

Raping young children because Mohammed did it SO it's 'not rape but ok by Allah'  and is done openly is not the same as a priest, who KNOWS it's  not OK, and then furtively does rape children and tries to hide it. In the former's  world the brute is an upright son of Mohammed, the latter a criminal even in his own eyes and he knows he is doing wrong.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #123 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:50pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:30pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 

You are completely naive, arent you?

'Rational and objective' are themselves concepts, as is the idea of having different perspectives, a metaphore made from applying the sensory experience of seeing to comprehending the world conceptually which is not a visual experience.

Raping young children because Mohammed did it SO it's 'not rape but ok by Allah'  and is done openly is not the same as a priest, who KNOWS it's  not OK, and then furtively does rape children and tries to hide it. In the former's  world the brute is an upright son of Mohammed, the latter a criminal even in his own eyes and he knows he is doing wrong.


Well you are a human being, no matter where you live, which ever person you talk to, raping young children is not okay.  Everyone knows it.  Those perpetrators in Afghanistan provided an excuse, but the reason that they actually provide an excuse is because they precisely know that they are wrong.  They are not sorry about it, not because some fancy figure alleged to have married a child bride more than a thousand years ago, but because they were driven by their own lust and human imperfection.   THEY need to be held responsible for what they are doing, no Islam, no Mohammad, but themselves.   And to do anything else, is to deny justice to the victims.

N.b. Both objective and rational implies that we need to make decision free from our own personal emotions, and put more weight on actual facts and evidences.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #124 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 4:14pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:50pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:30pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 

You are completely naive, arent you?

'Rational and objective' are themselves concepts, as is the idea of having different perspectives, a metaphore made from applying the sensory experience of seeing to comprehending the world conceptually which is not a visual experience.

Raping young children because Mohammed did it SO it's 'not rape but ok by Allah'  and is done openly is not the same as a priest, who KNOWS it's  not OK, and then furtively does rape children and tries to hide it. In the former's  world the brute is an upright son of Mohammed, the latter a criminal even in his own eyes and he knows he is doing wrong.


Well you are a human being, no matter where you live, which ever person you talk to, raping young children is not okay.  Everyone knows it.  Those perpetrators in Afghanistan provided an excuse, but the reason that they actually provide an excuse is because they precisely know that they are wrong.  They are not sorry about it, not because some fancy figure alleged to have married a child bride more than a thousand years ago, but because they were driven by their own lust and human imperfection.   THEY need to be held responsible for what they are doing, no Islam, no Mohammad, but themselves.   And to do anything else, is to deny justice to the victims.



It's  their 'culture'. In their reckoning and law thee is nothing to hold them responsible for be cause they probably paid the parents sufficiently. They punish severly people they hold responsible for crimes in their reckoning and law.

Your 'objective and rational' are meaningless to them.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #125 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 5:58pm
 
tickleandrose  wrote: Reply #111 - Today at 9:19am
Quote:
Again this is where the religion differs.  Christianity and Islam have alot of similarities, however, the core belief are different.   Christianity also have many pagan roots.  This is how religion developed over time.  For example:

Halloween: observed by western Christians, and widely celebrated in USA and Australia.  Was in fact linked to Gaelic and Welsh influence.

Christmas: perhaps the most important day after Easter, was a pagan holiday making the winter solstice.

The actual symbol of Santa Clause is infact designed by Coca Cola, even.  So you can say its strictly pagan symbol as well if go by a more hardline doctrine. 

However, what use is that to debate about something that is theological and cannot be proven?  So what if its moon god, so what if the Christmas was a pagan holiday.  At the end of day, it is how we treat each other right now, at this life time that matters.


You're all over the shop t&r, one minute they are all Abrahamic, the next well yes they do have pagan roots.

You have a couple of points that are totally flawed:

First off Christianity doesn't have pagan roots, the roots of Christianity (and the foretelling of Christ) are in Judaism, a solely monotheistic belief.

Easter is a Christian religious festival based on the Passover of Judaism (the sacrificial lamb of Judaism is now Jesus in Christianity)

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ, many people link it to pagan roots.

Both of these religious festivals have been commercialized so it's only the believers who see them as spiritual festivals, the rest of the people simply see them as public holidays.

Now it's entirely different with the islamic pagan rituals, the islamic rituals mentioned are an exact same copy of the pagan moon god rituals, nothing has changed except the ancient pagan rituals were to honour a moon god called allah, todays' islamic rituals honour a reinvented moon god allah (muhammad changed moon god allah into a monotheistic god, he also changed allah into a god of pure hatred of all non believers)

I think you're trying to excuse the role islam plays in the behaviour of muslims today 2019, well you can apologize as much as you like for islam because the facts are:

All men proclaim their gods in the image of their own inner self.

muhammad was a pedophile thief liar rapist torturer and mass murderer by todays 2019 standards (so is the god proclaimed by him).

muhammad is cited as the best example to follow for all muslims.

muslims who commit islamic human rights atrocities are all 100% convinced they are doing the right thing doctrinally, they are simply raping torturing and slaughtering the enemies of allah, exactly the same as muhammad did, they offer their evil deeds up to allah as a sacrifice every time the commit them.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #126 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 6:06pm
 
tickleandrose  wrote; Reply #112 - Today at 9:24am
Quote:
They are doing horrible things because there is an environment for them to which this occurs.  In India, not only there is caste system, there is also unequal treatment of woman.  As such the judiciary system was heavily biased.   This allowed crimes not to be punished in the first place, and so the so called 'culture' arised after that.

The same is in Afghanistan.  They do things that they like, raping kids, and no one hold them accountable.  So they make excuses, they could have easily have said, so? I did it, what are you doing to do about it.  But, had they tried to do this as a common man in say even Saudi Arabia, they are likely to face the death penalty by the religious police.  Again, its about people's position, and what they can get away with. 

And the same was in Australia.  We just had a royal commission into institutionalized child sex abuse.  And we have uncovered, wide spread cover up of sexual abuse, including rape, perpetrated by clergies, and also people in power.  The victims are often left to fend for themselves with no justice.    This even occurred in our parts of world where laws were designed to protect children and yet was useless.   Someone in say Japan or China would read this on their news, and reckon all Christians are child
rapists but is that a fair assessment of all Christians? 

No it goes beyond just Christians and Muslims. Rape, and murder have existed long before these two religions, and existed where those religions werent.  The existence of Christian and Islam are short comparing to the evolutionary history of mankind.    I can guarantee that rape and murder will continue long after Christianity and Islam cease to exist.


O.K so you acknowledge that India has a culture which sponsors the abhorrent treatment of the females.

You then go on to the rape of little kids by catholics etc and muslims.

You once again have given flawed logic.

There is absolutely nothing in the teachings of Christ which promote rape torture and murder. The men who do this under the guise of Christianity are cowards who sneak around always lying and evading the law to the best of their ability. (we are starting to bring quiet a few of them to justice now, so that's a credit to our civilization)

Now get to the people you defend all the time, in islam forced child marriage results in horrific conditions for little girls it's a world wide problem in islam Why?

The reason muslims see no harm in their evil practices, is simpy muhammad did it, he is the best example so they can do it too.

Yes there are repulsive people in all walks of life and all cultures, however in islamic culture their qur'an actually promotes the rape torture and killing. (no other belief does this)

I blame the religion of islam for their terror status, their refugee status, their inbreeding status, their low I.Q. status, their poverty status.

If you're genuine and want to stop the islamic bloodshed death and destruction, you will be honest about the evil in the qur'an and would want a thorough investigation into the depravity in the qur'an which is the rudimentary  cause of all the muslims' problem.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #127 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 7:31pm
 
moses wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 5:58pm:
First off Christianity doesn't have pagan roots, the roots of Christianity (and the foretelling of Christ) are in Judaism, a solely monotheistic belief.


Sure of that, Moses?  Really?

Quote:
The origins of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age amidst polytheistic ancient Semitic religions, specifically Canaanite religion, co-existing with a syncretization with elements of Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible.

[Source]

Quote:
The milieu from which Israelite religion emerged was accordingly Canaanite.[30] El, "the kind, the compassionate," "the creator of creatures," was the chief of the Canaanite gods,[31] and he, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[32] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort.[31][33] This pair made up the top tier of the Canaanite pantheon;[31] the second tier was made up of their children, the "seventy sons of Athirat" (a variant of the name Asherah).[34] Prominent in this group was Baal, who had his home on Mount Zaphon; over time Baal became the dominant Canaanite deity, so that El became the executive power and Baal the military power in the cosmos.[35] Baal's sphere was the thunderstorm with its life-giving rains, so that he was also a fertility god, although not quite the fertility god.[36] Below the seventy second-tier gods was a third tier made up of comparatively minor craftsman and trader deities, with a fourth and final tier of divine messengers and the like.[34] El and his sons made up the Assembly of the Gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of Deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes El dividing the nations of the world among his sons, with Yahweh receiving Israel.

[Source]

Appears to me it was based on paganism originally, Moses.   Isn't that what you charge Islam with?  Tsk, tsk, just think, both religions with similar roots...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #128 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 7:33pm
 
moses wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 6:06pm:
tickleandrose  wrote; Reply #112 - Today at 9:24am
Quote:
They are doing horrible things because there is an environment for them to which this occurs.  In India, not only there is caste system, there is also unequal treatment of woman.  As such the judiciary system was heavily biased.   This allowed crimes not to be punished in the first place, and so the so called 'culture' arised after that.

The same is in Afghanistan.  They do things that they like, raping kids, and no one hold them accountable.  So they make excuses, they could have easily have said, so? I did it, what are you doing to do about it.  But, had they tried to do this as a common man in say even Saudi Arabia, they are likely to face the death penalty by the religious police.  Again, its about people's position, and what they can get away with. 

And the same was in Australia.  We just had a royal commission into institutionalized child sex abuse.  And we have uncovered, wide spread cover up of sexual abuse, including rape, perpetrated by clergies, and also people in power.  The victims are often left to fend for themselves with no justice.    This even occurred in our parts of world where laws were designed to protect children and yet was useless.   Someone in say Japan or China would read this on their news, and reckon all Christians are child
rapists but is that a fair assessment of all Christians? 

No it goes beyond just Christians and Muslims. Rape, and murder have existed long before these two religions, and existed where those religions werent.  The existence of Christian and Islam are short comparing to the evolutionary history of mankind.    I can guarantee that rape and murder will continue long after Christianity and Islam cease to exist.


O.K so you acknowledge that India has a culture which sponsors the abhorrent treatment of the females.

You then go on to the rape of little kids by catholics...


Funny, Moses, I don't see a single mention of the word "Catholic" in Rose's commentary.  Surely you mean "Christians", don't you or are you fibbing again to cover up what the Royal Commission actually discovered?   Mmmmm?   Typical.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #129 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:28pm
 
.. and  Merry Christmas to you, too, Ach-Med!  Wait until Easter - we've got something extra special for you!  Have you jumping up and down like a Dervish on hot coals....
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #130 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:12pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:26pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 3:07pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:54pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
To this day Muslims campaign against minimum age of consent laws because their religion prevents them from even suggesting Muhammad might have done something wrong by having sex with children.

But Aussie would rather see those children continue to get raped than acknowledge the role Islam plays- hence his moronic BS about god having sex.


Ah...so you are calling the Old Testament moronic bullshit.  Fine by me, Effendi.  I agree 100%.


OK Aussie you told us all you have no clue about Islam, but seriously? Jesus is the new testament.


My bad.  I should have said New Testament.  So you finally agree it too is moronic bullshit.  I agree 100%.


I am not sure what your point is. Muhammad buggered kiddies, so Muslims today oppose legal restrictions on kiddie smacking in Muhammad's name. Aussie pretends this is not happening and tries to read pedophilia into the birth of Jesus.

Do you actually want children to continue being raped in the name of Islam, or is there something else that motivates you, and the child victims of Muslim pedophiles are just some kind of collateral damage?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #131 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:06am
 
moses wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 5:58pm:
tickleandrose  wrote: Reply #111 - Today at 9:19am
Quote:
Again this is where the religion differs.  Christianity and Islam have alot of similarities, however, the core belief are different.   Christianity also have many pagan roots.  This is how religion developed over time.  For example:

Halloween: observed by western Christians, and widely celebrated in USA and Australia.  Was in fact linked to Gaelic and Welsh influence.

Christmas: perhaps the most important day after Easter, was a pagan holiday making the winter solstice.

The actual symbol of Santa Clause is infact designed by Coca Cola, even.  So you can say its strictly pagan symbol as well if go by a more hardline doctrine. 

However, what use is that to debate about something that is theological and cannot be proven?  So what if its moon god, so what if the Christmas was a pagan holiday.  At the end of day, it is how we treat each other right now, at this life time that matters.


You're all over the shop t&r, one minute they are all Abrahamic, the next well yes they do have pagan roots.

You have a couple of points that are totally flawed:

First off Christianity doesn't have pagan roots, the roots of Christianity (and the foretelling of Christ) are in Judaism, a solely monotheistic belief.

Easter is a Christian religious festival based on the Passover of Judaism (the sacrificial lamb of Judaism is now Jesus in Christianity)

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ, many people link it to pagan roots.

Both of these religious festivals have been commercialized so it's only the believers who see them as spiritual festivals, the rest of the people simply see them as public holidays.

Now it's entirely different with the islamic pagan rituals, the islamic rituals mentioned are an exact same copy of the pagan moon god rituals, nothing has changed except the ancient pagan rituals were to honour a moon god called allah, todays' islamic rituals honour a reinvented moon god allah (muhammad changed moon god allah into a monotheistic god, he also changed allah into a god of pure hatred of all non believers)

I think you're trying to excuse the role islam plays in the behaviour of muslims today 2019, well you can apologize as much as you like for islam because the facts are:

All men proclaim their gods in the image of their own inner self.

muhammad was a pedophile thief liar rapist torturer and mass murderer by todays 2019 standards (so is the god proclaimed by him).

muhammad is cited as the best example to follow for all muslims.

muslims who commit islamic human rights atrocities are all 100% convinced they are doing the right thing doctrinally, they are simply raping torturing and slaughtering the enemies of allah, exactly the same as muhammad did, they offer their evil deeds up to allah as a sacrifice every time the commit them.


Moses, when you list the things you think that are pagan in Islam to dispute that its a Abrahamic, I easily listed two of the traditions that are Christian, and yet, pagan.   If you go into history a bit more, you would find that most religions in the world are have certain things that other have.  It is because, the people interact with each other, learn off each other. 

But at the end of the day, my original point still stands, what use is to dispute it was a 'moon god' or not.  It was all tools written by men to divide and rule the population from a historic point of view.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #132 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:12am
 
moses wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 6:06pm:
tickleandrose  wrote; Reply #112 - Today at 9:24am
Quote:
They are doing horrible things because there is an environment for them to which this occurs.  In India, not only there is caste system, there is also unequal treatment of woman.  As such the judiciary system was heavily biased.   This allowed crimes not to be punished in the first place, and so the so called 'culture' arised after that.

The same is in Afghanistan.  They do things that they like, raping kids, and no one hold them accountable.  So they make excuses, they could have easily have said, so? I did it, what are you doing to do about it.  But, had they tried to do this as a common man in say even Saudi Arabia, they are likely to face the death penalty by the religious police.  Again, its about people's position, and what they can get away with. 

And the same was in Australia.  We just had a royal commission into institutionalized child sex abuse.  And we have uncovered, wide spread cover up of sexual abuse, including rape, perpetrated by clergies, and also people in power.  The victims are often left to fend for themselves with no justice.    This even occurred in our parts of world where laws were designed to protect children and yet was useless.   Someone in say Japan or China would read this on their news, and reckon all Christians are child
rapists but is that a fair assessment of all Christians? 

No it goes beyond just Christians and Muslims. Rape, and murder have existed long before these two religions, and existed where those religions werent.  The existence of Christian and Islam are short comparing to the evolutionary history of mankind.    I can guarantee that rape and murder will continue long after Christianity and Islam cease to exist.


O.K so you acknowledge that India has a culture which sponsors the abhorrent treatment of the females.

You then go on to the rape of little kids by catholics etc and muslims.

You once again have given flawed logic.

There is absolutely nothing in the teachings of Christ which promote rape torture and murder. The men who do this under the guise of Christianity are cowards who sneak around always lying and evading the law to the best of their ability. (we are starting to bring quiet a few of them to justice now, so that's a credit to our civilization)

Now get to the people you defend all the time, in islam forced child marriage results in horrific conditions for little girls it's a world wide problem in islam Why?

The reason muslims see no harm in their evil practices, is simpy muhammad did it, he is the best example so they can do it too.

Yes there are repulsive people in all walks of life and all cultures, however in islamic culture their qur'an actually promotes the rape torture and killing. (no other belief does this)

I blame the religion of islam for their terror status, their refugee status, their inbreeding status, their low I.Q. status, their poverty status.

If you're genuine and want to stop the islamic bloodshed death and destruction, you will be honest about the evil in the qur'an and would want a thorough investigation into the depravity in the qur'an which is the rudimentary  cause of all the muslims' problem.


Mose that is a very simplistic view of the world.  Our fundamental difference is that, you believe people do evil things because of some text telling them to, and the action of someone who lived more than thousand years ago.   I think differently.  Because, people had been doing terrible things to each other long before our written history.    The reason why people do it, its precisely because they know they can get away with it. 

Even if today, Mose, that you have godly powers, and all of sudden you remove the entire Islam religion from the face of the Earth.  If those areas are to remain lawless, then you can be sure that terrible things will continue to happen again and again and again.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #133 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:13am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:01pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 12:35pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 


Good grief what don't you get about a religion & it's Holy men who teach that women are unclean & they have to be covered up head to toe is going to cause the men to go looking elsewhere?

Besides the little boys ... the goats, donkeys, camels etc. cop a lot of man love.


Gnad, let me make this very very clear to you.  All of this.. religion stuff, they are man made.  They made it in a time, where science and technology are not advanced, however, human mind need some sort of 'explanation' for the things we cant explain.  Sharia law was man made.  But the main purpose of which, is to control the population by the ruling class. 

And besides, the concept that woman are not clean, predates Islam.  The concept of sinfulness of mankind and that of woman had its roots in Christianity, in the form of Original sin.

Now, why basically every region in the world seek to control women?  When you look through the veils of tradition, it boils down to survival.  In the past, if a tribe, or country wants to survive, it need to have a strong military and economy.  There can be no military not economy without a healthy fighting and working population.  Controlling the women is about controlling the fertility.   And religion is one of ways that our ruling class have devised to rule us and to divide us. 

For example, back in the medieval times, marrying outside religions (Christians and pagans, Christians and Muslims), or even within religion (protestants and catholics) were seen as highly forbidden, even as bad as marrying outside your class / caste.   They are tools to control to subjugate us for their gains. 

You need to transcend your thought process.  We are lucky that we live in Australia, under secular governance.  It is an opportunity that not everyone in the world has.  See through the illusions that other have created around you, go and make a friend with a muslim. See him not as a Muslim, an Arabic, or an Asian, see him as a human being.  And then all of sudden two person would be happy instead of none.  Smiley 


Oh durrrrh ..... and despite global advancement in education, science & technology these people still cling to dark ages religious dogma.

They fight wars with modern weapons, they kill their own & other with same .... except when punishing their women ... they revert back to stones for them.

Everything is "man made" ......

stop making excuses for barbarism & devotion to a 1400 yr old doctrine that promotes murder & paedophilia and is carried out by supposedly 21st century human beings.


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #134 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:22am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 4:14pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:50pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:30pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 

You are completely naive, arent you?

'Rational and objective' are themselves concepts, as is the idea of having different perspectives, a metaphore made from applying the sensory experience of seeing to comprehending the world conceptually which is not a visual experience.

Raping young children because Mohammed did it SO it's 'not rape but ok by Allah'  and is done openly is not the same as a priest, who KNOWS it's  not OK, and then furtively does rape children and tries to hide it. In the former's  world the brute is an upright son of Mohammed, the latter a criminal even in his own eyes and he knows he is doing wrong.


Well you are a human being, no matter where you live, which ever person you talk to, raping young children is not okay.  Everyone knows it.  Those perpetrators in Afghanistan provided an excuse, but the reason that they actually provide an excuse is because they precisely know that they are wrong.  They are not sorry about it, not because some fancy figure alleged to have married a child bride more than a thousand years ago, but because they were driven by their own lust and human imperfection.   THEY need to be held responsible for what they are doing, no Islam, no Mohammad, but themselves.   And to do anything else, is to deny justice to the victims.



It's  their 'culture'. In their reckoning and law thee is nothing to hold them responsible for be cause they probably paid the parents sufficiently. They punish severly people they hold responsible for crimes in their reckoning and law.

Your 'objective and rational' are meaningless to them.


Frank!  You are nearly there!  Now, see through the last veil of their excuses.  Its not about culture, its not about religion.  They do it, because they give into their own inner sins, they do it because they know they can get away with it.   See if they try to do something like this in North Korea, or even say China, they would probably face the firing squad even.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #135 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:13am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:01pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 12:35pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 11:48am:
Re Frank

Quote:
Give me one concept that is not man made.

Of course its all man made, or man conceived. But that doesnt make it 'all the same'.


Good question!  When you realized that, then you are able to look at the world with more rational and objective perspective.  Atrocities do happen, and due to many man made reasons.  However, now, instead of easier way out: e.g. looking for differences in skin color, and religion on the surface, we can go into depth, and get to the root of the problem. 

With this rational perspective, we can go after the real perpetrators who committed a crime, instead of accusing other innocent people who had nothing to do with those atrocities. 

For example, those men in Afghanistan who rapes young children.  If you have godly power, and absolutely destroy the ideology of Islam, the same men will still carry on as usual raping young children. They could have easily said well I can do that, what are you going to do about it.    But if you put in effective law, and enforcement, with increase education for the masses, then such thing will not happen. 


Good grief what don't you get about a religion & it's Holy men who teach that women are unclean & they have to be covered up head to toe is going to cause the men to go looking elsewhere?

Besides the little boys ... the goats, donkeys, camels etc. cop a lot of man love.


Gnad, let me make this very very clear to you.  All of this.. religion stuff, they are man made.  They made it in a time, where science and technology are not advanced, however, human mind need some sort of 'explanation' for the things we cant explain.  Sharia law was man made.  But the main purpose of which, is to control the population by the ruling class. 

And besides, the concept that woman are not clean, predates Islam.  The concept of sinfulness of mankind and that of woman had its roots in Christianity, in the form of Original sin.

Now, why basically every region in the world seek to control women?  When you look through the veils of tradition, it boils down to survival.  In the past, if a tribe, or country wants to survive, it need to have a strong military and economy.  There can be no military not economy without a healthy fighting and working population.  Controlling the women is about controlling the fertility.   And religion is one of ways that our ruling class have devised to rule us and to divide us. 

For example, back in the medieval times, marrying outside religions (Christians and pagans, Christians and Muslims), or even within religion (protestants and catholics) were seen as highly forbidden, even as bad as marrying outside your class / caste.   They are tools to control to subjugate us for their gains. 

You need to transcend your thought process.  We are lucky that we live in Australia, under secular governance.  It is an opportunity that not everyone in the world has.  See through the illusions that other have created around you, go and make a friend with a muslim. See him not as a Muslim, an Arabic, or an Asian, see him as a human being.  And then all of sudden two person would be happy instead of none.  Smiley 


Oh durrrrh ..... and despite global advancement in education, science & technology these people still cling to dark ages religious dogma.

They fight wars with modern weapons, they kill their own & other with same .... except when punishing their women ... they revert back to stones for them.

Everything is "man made" ......

stop making excuses for barbarism & devotion to a 1400 yr old doctrine that promotes murder & paedophilia and is carried out by supposedly 21st century human beings.




Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #136 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #137 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #138 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 4:27pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink


If it's not against their laws, is it a crime?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #139 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:06pm
 
Cu Chullain wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 4:27pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink


If it's not against their laws, is it a crime?


They live here - they live by our rules.. if not, we introduce them to Allah for a personal chat...
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #140 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 6:05pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink

They don't  bow to your man made  laws. Allah's  law or nuffin'.

They are totalitarians in a quinessentially NON-Western way. Their totalitarianism pre-dates all Western concepts of totalitarianism by a millennium. That's  Mohammed's only contribution to world history. He was Hitler 1400 years before Hitler. And his adherent worship his every word.

The Koran is Mohammed's  Mein Kampf (Koran is German for Recitation of My Struggles).


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #141 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 6:54pm
 
tickleandrose  wrote: Reply #131 - Today at 9:06am

Quote:
Moses, when you list the things you think that are pagan in Islam to dispute that its a Abrahamic, I easily listed two of the traditions that are Christian, and yet, pagan.   If you go into history a bit more, you would find that most religions in the world are have certain things that other have.  It is because, the people interact with each other, learn off each other. 

But at the end of the day, my original point still stands, what use is to dispute it was a 'moon god' or not.  It was all tools written by men to divide and rule the population from a historic point of view.


I fail to see how Christians celebrating easter which is the aniversary of the crucifixion of Christ is based on a pagan festival.

They base Easter on the traditions of the Judaic Passover hardly pagan.

Christmas I think coincides with some pagan festival, however they are not celebrating anything pagan, they celebrate the birth of Christ on this day.

I dispute anyone trying to lump islam and Judaism together as Abrahamic.

That simply is not true and easily disproved by historical archeological and religious evidence. (islam is merely a fake reinvented moon god cult trying to plagiarize the Judaeo/Christian religious beliefs.

==================================================================

tickleandrose  wrote Reply #132 - Today at 9:12am

Quote:
Mose that is a very simplistic view of the world.  Our fundamental difference is that, you believe people do evil things because of some text telling them to, and the action of someone who lived more than thousand years ago.   I think differently.  Because, people had been doing terrible things to each other long before our written history.    The reason why people do it, its precisely because they know they can get away with it. 

Even if today, Mose, that you have godly powers, and all of sudden you remove the entire Islam religion from the face of the Earth.  If those areas are to remain lawless, then you can be sure that terrible things will continue to happen again and again and again.


You're slowly getting to the truth of it t&r you say evil men do things, very true.

So why can't evil men preach their depravities as religious doctrine?

Men preach their iner selves as the attributes of the god they're proclaiming.

This is exactly what happened with islam, muhammad changed the attributes of his god allah into a god which approved all the degeneracies he practiced.

The islamic problem today is one simple thing, they have no foundation on which to build a modern 21st century civilization. muslims are stuck with their 7th century mentality.

Why do you think they are still amputating peoples' limbs for trivial crime, stoning people to death for homosexuality adultery blasphemy & apostasy?

They do it because islam tells them to do it, not because they are so depraved they simply want to kill people for the sake of it.

muslims are the worlds religious terrorists, they commit islamic terrorism because islam causes and motivates it.

Stop making excuses for islam t&r, let's call a spade a spade and stop all the world wide muslim terrorism, world wide millions of muslim refugees, tens of thousands of little children being deliberately starved to death by muslim wars, thousands of little children dying in the refugee flight caused by muslims, all because they have a culture / religion which is toxic and evil held down by the 7th century depravity of muhammad which he turned into prescribed consecrated deeds .
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #142 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:49am
 
Re Frank and Cu Chullain

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 6:05pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink

They don't  bow to your man made  laws. Allah's  law or nuffin'.

They are totalitarians in a quinessentially NON-Western way. Their totalitarianism pre-dates all Western concepts of totalitarianism by a millennium. That's  Mohammed's only contribution to world history. He was Hitler 1400 years before Hitler. And his adherent worship his every word.

The Koran is Mohammed's  Mein Kampf (Koran is German for Recitation of My Struggles).


Do you not see.  Not Allah's laws.  But human MADE laws.  Laws for which they pick and choose to their liking.  Cu Cullian is right, they dont care, because no one is there to hold them accountable for now.  And the sad thing is that, perhaps, no one can held them responsible this lifetime. 

This is what happens when war, conflict, and conservatism holds back the tides of change.  Here, in the Western world, those changes did not come without sacrifice and at alot of times sheer luck. 

You can barking on about oh.... erh... the Koran is equivalent of my struggle, and utter your distaste.  But, what is going to happen is that, by generalizing, you are only going to make the positions of hardliners more entrenched, and the moderates more prosecuted.  And thereby increasing suffering ten folds, a hundred folds for the people who actually live there, while you remaining safe behind your ivory tower.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #143 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 10:06am
 
Re Moses:

Easter is a good example of how traditions mixed with a relative new but dominant religion at the same time.  Prior to the Christianity, those Easter days began as a pagan festival celebrating spring in the Northern Hemisphere.  The spring equinox is a day where the amount of daylight and the amount dark is similar.  People celebrate them in those times, because, back then, humans are roughly divided into two types of society: the normads, and the agriculture society. 

The Easter period became associated with resurrection of Christ following the coming of Christianity.   But there are still disputes as to the exact day and time when Jesus was Cruxified and resurrected.  It made sense then, because spring are associated with change, and renewal, which symbolizes the passing of darkness by Jesus sacrifice and the renewal of human faith in god.

In German, the pre Christian - celebration period is called Ostern, after the goddess Ostara.  And the act of decorating eggs follows a German tradition linked to the fertility goddess Eostre.   And of course later, there is addition of commercial things, like greeting cards, confectioneries and toys.  Whether or not that reflect the true meaning of Christianity its of course up for debate as well. 

So, in its Essence, even with the act of celebrating Easter, one of the most important days in Christianity, have many of its roots in Pagan traditions.  Everything is mixed, people mix. 

But at the end of the day, what does it matter?  Pagan or Christians, Muslims or Christians.  We are all humans.  We live in each other's space, and we exchange informations, and communicate.  Do we really have to point at each other's belief, and state oh this is pagan, mine is more genuine?  What does it serve?  Division.  All of sudden, two people who can be friends, suddenly cannot.  Is this what god intended for us?  To divide, and squable between us in his name? 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #144 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 10:25am
 
re Moses

Quote:
You're slowly getting to the truth of it t&r you say evil men do things, very true.

So why can't evil men preach their depravities as religious doctrine?

Men preach their iner selves as the attributes of the god they're proclaiming.

This is exactly what happened with islam, muhammad changed the attributes of his god allah into a god which approved all the degeneracies he practiced.

The islamic problem today is one simple thing, they have no foundation on which to build a modern 21st century civilization. muslims are stuck with their 7th century mentality.

Why do you think they are still amputating peoples' limbs for trivial crime, stoning people to death for homosexuality adultery blasphemy & apostasy?

They do it because islam tells them to do it, not because they are so depraved they simply want to kill people for the sake of it.

muslims are the worlds religious terrorists, they commit islamic terrorism because islam causes and motivates it.

Stop making excuses for islam t&r, let's call a spade a spade and stop all the world wide muslim terrorism, world wide millions of muslim refugees, tens of thousands of little children being deliberately starved to death by muslim wars, thousands of little children dying in the refugee flight caused by muslims, all because they have a culture / religion which is toxic and evil held down by the 7th century depravity of muhammad which he turned into prescribed consecrated deeds .


Moses, it is admirable that you want to stop the suffering, to reduce the suffering of the world. From your words, I can feel your frustration, and sadness for those who are suffering. 

However, our differences is that, you firmly believe that it is a scripture that drives those suffering,  Where as I believe, it is the inner imperfection of mankind that drives those suffering.  What ever happened in the 6th century, that was well over 1000 years ago.  Whats happening now in the world, its a lot more complicated than just can be explained with religion. 

Moses, I encourage you to start looking at the world through a more secular view.  At the very minimum, perhaps, starting reading from WW1, especially at the end of WW1, with the breaking up of the Prussian empire in Europe, and the Ottoman Empire in the middle East.  And how, and why the formation of different middle East states.  And then go through WW2, and the cold war that followed.    Only then, you will start to understand a bit, about the formation of Al Qeada and ISIL in the modern times.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #145 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:50am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:49am:
Re Frank and Cu Chullain

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 6:05pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink

They don't  bow to your man made  laws. Allah's  law or nuffin'.

They are totalitarians in a quinessentially NON-Western way. Their totalitarianism pre-dates all Western concepts of totalitarianism by a millennium. That's  Mohammed's only contribution to world history. He was Hitler 1400 years before Hitler. And his adherent worship his every word.

The Koran is Mohammed's  Mein Kampf (Koran is German for Recitation of My Struggles).


Do you not see.  Not Allah's laws.  But human MADE laws.  Laws for which they pick and choose to their liking.  Cu Cullian is right, they dont care, because no one is there to hold them accountable for now.  And the sad thing is that, perhaps, no one can held them responsible this lifetime. 

This is what happens when war, conflict, and conservatism holds back the tides of change.  Here, in the Western world, those changes did not come without sacrifice and at alot of times sheer luck. 

You can barking on about oh.... erh... the Koran is equivalent of my struggle, and utter your distaste.  But, what is going to happen is that, by generalizing, you are only going to make the positions of hardliners more entrenched, and the moderates more prosecuted.  And thereby increasing suffering ten folds, a hundred folds for the people who actually live there, while you remaining safe behind your ivory tower. 

So by despising Islam I AM MAKING THEM MORE DESPICABLE. And this your 'more secular' learning. Pretty daft.

Murderous thugs would nice if only we didn't notice and say thet they are murderous thugs.


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #146 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 4:42pm
 
tickleandrose wrrote Reply #143 - Today at 10:06am.
Quote:
Easter is a good example of how traditions mixed with a relative new but dominant religion at the same time.  Prior to the Christianity, those Easter days began as a pagan festival celebrating spring in the Northern Hemisphere.


You've completely sidestepped the very things which define the Christian Easter t&r.

To start with Christ was crucified during the  Hebrew passover.

Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

Luke 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Christ was crucified during the Hebrew passover.

Nothing to do with paganism the Jewish passover celebrates the time God spared the Hebrews from his wrath, they painted blood of a sacrificial lamb over their doors and God did passover them.

Quote:
But at the end of the day, what does it matter?  Pagan or Christians, Muslims or Christians.  We are all humans.  We live in each other's space, and we exchange informations, and communicate.  Do we really have to point at each other's belief, and state oh this is pagan, mine is more genuine?  What does it serve?  Division.  All of sudden, two people who can be friends, suddenly cannot.  Is this what god intended for us?  To divide, and squable between us in his name? 


Once again you've sidestepped the fact that islam teaches muslim domination of the world, islam teaches that allah and muslims hate the non-believers, islam teaches that a thief liar pedophile rapist torturer and mass murderer is the best example for mankind to follow.

Why are you avoiding the fact that the islamic terrorists, islamic rapists with their forced child marriage, islamic men who practice bacha bazi with the little boys, the muslims who behead people, the muslim crowds who work themselves into a euphoric state of pure evil when calling for the death of homosexuals apostates blasphemers adulterers etc.,  all totally believe they are obeying their qur'an?

The qur'an is the root cause of all problems muslims face today 2019.

Reply #144 - Today at 10:25am
Quote:
What ever happened in the 6th century, that was well over 1000 years ago.  Whats happening now in the world, its a lot more complicated than just can be explained with religion. 


Except the muslims certainly don't believe you t&r.

They eat live and breathe islam, they do not think for themselves, the qur'an and what happened a millennium and a half ago is what drives them today 2019.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #147 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:30pm
 
We don't really care - it's the deliberate attack on the culture that supports and accepts Easter and Christmas as they are, that is the problem here.

How would the Muslim cleric like it if the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope got up and said that Ramadan was worse than murder?

Once more - Merry Christmas to the Muslim cleric..... and keep on enjoying your free ride.... being a cleric means you don't have to work and your faithful pay you and feed you well.... so you don't even need a holiday...
(dick-head)
......

Must be suffering from relevance deprivation syndrome in the West - time to go home, Jackie-Jackie, and enjoy life there...
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #148 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 9:05am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:30pm:
We don't really care - it's the deliberate attack on the culture that supports and accepts Easter and Christmas as they are, that is the problem here.

How would the Muslim cleric like it if the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope got up and said that Ramadan was worse than murder?

Once more - Merry Christmas to the Muslim cleric..... and keep on enjoying your free ride.... being a cleric means you don't have to work and your faithful pay you and feed you well.... so you don't even need a holiday...
(dick-head)
......

Must be suffering from relevance deprivation syndrome in the West - time to go home, Jackie-Jackie, and enjoy life there...


Smiley
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #149 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 9:13am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:50am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:49am:
Re Frank and Cu Chullain

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 6:05pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink

They don't  bow to your man made  laws. Allah's  law or nuffin'.

They are totalitarians in a quinessentially NON-Western way. Their totalitarianism pre-dates all Western concepts of totalitarianism by a millennium. That's  Mohammed's only contribution to world history. He was Hitler 1400 years before Hitler. And his adherent worship his every word.

The Koran is Mohammed's  Mein Kampf (Koran is German for Recitation of My Struggles).


Do you not see.  Not Allah's laws.  But human MADE laws.  Laws for which they pick and choose to their liking.  Cu Cullian is right, they dont care, because no one is there to hold them accountable for now.  And the sad thing is that, perhaps, no one can held them responsible this lifetime. 

This is what happens when war, conflict, and conservatism holds back the tides of change.  Here, in the Western world, those changes did not come without sacrifice and at alot of times sheer luck. 

You can barking on about oh.... erh... the Koran is equivalent of my struggle, and utter your distaste.  But, what is going to happen is that, by generalizing, you are only going to make the positions of hardliners more entrenched, and the moderates more prosecuted.  And thereby increasing suffering ten folds, a hundred folds for the people who actually live there, while you remaining safe behind your ivory tower. 

So by despising Islam I AM MAKING THEM MORE DESPICABLE. And this your 'more secular' learning. Pretty daft.

Murderous thugs would nice if only we didn't notice and say thet they are murderous thugs.



Because Frank, when you so called dispise Islam, not only you do that to the perpetrators, who I agree absolutely deserve it, but also alienate the victims that you sought to save them from.   When under threat, people will retreat back, and hardliners takes over.  Its like this forever in human history.  And when there is enough hardliners on both sides in control, war and conflict breaks out again, causing even more suffering.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #150 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 9:18am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:30pm:
We don't really care - it's the deliberate attack on the culture that supports and accepts Easter and Christmas as they are, that is the problem here.

How would the Muslim cleric like it if the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope got up and said that Ramadan was worse than murder?

Once more - Merry Christmas to the Muslim cleric..... and keep on enjoying your free ride.... being a cleric means you don't have to work and your faithful pay you and feed you well.... so you don't even need a holiday...
(dick-head)
......

Must be suffering from relevance deprivation syndrome in the West - time to go home, Jackie-Jackie, and enjoy life there...


But Grappler, that cleric is not the equivalent of the pope or the archbishop of Canterbury!  So, he can say all he likes, it is not like the Christmas or the Easter is all of sudden is going to be cancelled.  He is on the news is probably because the newspaper have nothing else better to run.  And its not the first time anyone take offense on the Christian Easter or Christmas.  People had been doing so for a LONG time.   But, majority of the muslims simple DONT care.   Just like majority of Buddhist, Jewish and Pagans dont care.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #151 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 9:59am
 
Re Moses

1. I am not disputing the days of the Easter.  However, I pointed out that prior to Christianity, those same days began was pagan festival throughout different regions of Europe.  It is because that the spring time equinox, is a very significant day in Agriculture societies. 

Christianity came much later on.  And I suspect the ressurection of Jesus happened around the Jewish Passover is not a coincidence.  Rather it was intended when the scriptures were first written. 

But the tradition of celebrating spring time is not a specific Jewish concept, but rather it had been celebrated in many different cultures and countries long before that.  So again, this is an evidence that behind the veils of religion, there are elements of control.  We celebrate spring time, then after that, everyone goes back to work, and then wait for harvast in the new year. 

Even if Jesus was not crucified ever, then Easter will still be celebrated, probably under a different name.

2. Like I mentioned before, relgion in this case is a tool.  A tool that is man made, and had been used to subjugate its population by the ruling class.   Wether, its through an ideology or through mystitism, the root purprose is for all to see.  The things that we are seeing today, the terrorist, - they have a purpose.  The simple minded may be the ones that could be influenced to carry out the attack, however, the masterminds, they may preach themselves as true Islam, but their motive and purpose is far from that.   Forced Child Marriages, raping of little boys, and girls, those who behead people, these are the tools used to intimate, and to control others.  The Christian bibles list those as 7 sins: Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride. 

3. My views are quiet secular, and straight to the source.  Even those people who you think live and breath Islam, and commit crimes, ultimately, its their own inner selfish needs that caused them to do terrible things.  Perhaps, for one minute, imagine that you are looking down at planet Earth, and its billions years of evolution.  And see, the nature's cruety in motion.  You will find that there are so much similarities that had been repeated again and again.  And that, Christianity and Islam had only come to the overall picture in the very tail end of it.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #152 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 11:59am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 9:13am:
Frank wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:50am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:49am:
Re Frank and Cu Chullain

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 6:05pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink

They don't  bow to your man made  laws. Allah's  law or nuffin'.

They are totalitarians in a quinessentially NON-Western way. Their totalitarianism pre-dates all Western concepts of totalitarianism by a millennium. That's  Mohammed's only contribution to world history. He was Hitler 1400 years before Hitler. And his adherent worship his every word.

The Koran is Mohammed's  Mein Kampf (Koran is German for Recitation of My Struggles).


Do you not see.  Not Allah's laws.  But human MADE laws.  Laws for which they pick and choose to their liking.  Cu Cullian is right, they dont care, because no one is there to hold them accountable for now.  And the sad thing is that, perhaps, no one can held them responsible this lifetime. 

This is what happens when war, conflict, and conservatism holds back the tides of change.  Here, in the Western world, those changes did not come without sacrifice and at alot of times sheer luck. 

You can barking on about oh.... erh... the Koran is equivalent of my struggle, and utter your distaste.  But, what is going to happen is that, by generalizing, you are only going to make the positions of hardliners more entrenched, and the moderates more prosecuted.  And thereby increasing suffering ten folds, a hundred folds for the people who actually live there, while you remaining safe behind your ivory tower. 

So by despising Islam I AM MAKING THEM MORE DESPICABLE. And this your 'more secular' learning. Pretty daft.

Murderous thugs would nice if only we didn't notice and say thet they are murderous thugs.



Because Frank, when you so called dispise Islam, not only you do that to the perpetrators, who I agree absolutely deserve it, but also alienate the victims that you sought to save them from.   When under threat, people will retreat back, and hardliners takes over.  Its like this forever in human history.  And when there is enough hardliners on both sides in control, war and conflict breaks out again, causing even more suffering. 

I am not  seking to save Muslims fro their Islam. They have to do it themselves, not me.

I am not threatening anyone and they don't  need to retreat to the hardliners. They just need to take long hard honest look at Islam and retreat FROM IT.


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #153 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 12:48pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 11:59am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 9:13am:
Frank wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:50am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:49am:
Re Frank and Cu Chullain

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 6:05pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Then my argument to those perpetrators would be: its not good enough that you try to excuse your action on a 1400 year old doctrine.  You are doing it, with your free will right now.  And its not good enough for the 21 st century.   You need to change, and dont try to hide behind tradition, because you are responsible for it. 



Oh, this will upset gandalf, karnal and bwian.
Muslims responsible? How very dare you, colonialist islamophobe?!!


No Frank, the perpetrators who did the crime.  You know the ones who are directly responsible.  Wink

They don't  bow to your man made  laws. Allah's  law or nuffin'.

They are totalitarians in a quinessentially NON-Western way. Their totalitarianism pre-dates all Western concepts of totalitarianism by a millennium. That's  Mohammed's only contribution to world history. He was Hitler 1400 years before Hitler. And his adherent worship his every word.

The Koran is Mohammed's  Mein Kampf (Koran is German for Recitation of My Struggles).


Do you not see.  Not Allah's laws.  But human MADE laws.  Laws for which they pick and choose to their liking.  Cu Cullian is right, they dont care, because no one is there to hold them accountable for now.  And the sad thing is that, perhaps, no one can held them responsible this lifetime. 

This is what happens when war, conflict, and conservatism holds back the tides of change.  Here, in the Western world, those changes did not come without sacrifice and at alot of times sheer luck. 

You can barking on about oh.... erh... the Koran is equivalent of my struggle, and utter your distaste.  But, what is going to happen is that, by generalizing, you are only going to make the positions of hardliners more entrenched, and the moderates more prosecuted.  And thereby increasing suffering ten folds, a hundred folds for the people who actually live there, while you remaining safe behind your ivory tower. 

So by despising Islam I AM MAKING THEM MORE DESPICABLE. And this your 'more secular' learning. Pretty daft.

Murderous thugs would nice if only we didn't notice and say thet they are murderous thugs.



Because Frank, when you so called dispise Islam, not only you do that to the perpetrators, who I agree absolutely deserve it, but also alienate the victims that you sought to save them from.   When under threat, people will retreat back, and hardliners takes over.  Its like this forever in human history.  And when there is enough hardliners on both sides in control, war and conflict breaks out again, causing even more suffering. 

I am not  seking to save Muslims fro their Islam. They have to do it themselves, not me.

I am not threatening anyone and they don't  need to retreat to the hardliners. They just need to take long hard honest look at Islam and retreat FROM IT.



Unfortunately Frank, due to the location of the middle East, its importance as a oil producing region, and the geopolitics, things in the Middle East will not improve.  And we will continue to have a hand in it.   For the past five years leading up to 2018, almost half of the entire US arms exports goes to the middle East.   There are also billions from other exporter countries like England, Germany, China and Russia.   Each of the global powers are playing with their little chess pieces, and the end result, its the smaller people that suffers the most.   

Even if Islam became extinct overnight, the situation will remain the same regardless.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #154 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm
 
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2019/01/07/17/46/shots-clyde-sydney-west-three...
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #155 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #156 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:37pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Same Sex Marriage, I guess.

Large majority of Australians (76%) in favour of allowing gay marriage
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #157 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:21pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:37pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Same Sex Marriage, I guess.

Large majority of Australians (76%) in favour of allowing gay marriage


So called progressives...not so much. 

Labor rejected same sex marriage and of those electorates that rejected same sex marriage, the majority likewise, also labor.

One thing you can't take away from the so called progressives, despite evidence, the capacity they possess to fool themselves.  Rejecting same sex marriage, smacking over asylum seekers, they are the actual facists they accuse others of being.

Hypocrites.  Cool
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #158 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:43pm
 
@ tickleandrose Reply #151 - Today at 9:59am

You've told us about pagan festivals t&r but you haven't told us how the Jews came to be celebrating what they call the Passover, which is the most relevant point in a discussion like this (the roots of Christianity).

The Jews celebrate the anniversary of when they were told to paint the side and upper door posts (some people believe side and upper posts would be a cross) of their house with the blood of a sacrificial lamb.

God would Passover these houses (with the cross in blood) when he was exacting retribution from the Egyptians.

That is what the Jews have been celebrating for about the last 3,500 years. They most certainly do not believe they are celebrating a pagan festival.

Now the crucifixion of Christ coincides exactly with the Passover, Christ was crucified on the Passover His blood replaces that of the sacrificial lamb and mankind is saved by faith in the Messiah. (Christs' blood on the cross is the last sacrifice required to save mankind).

Now can you tell me how any of this means that Christianity has its' roots in paganism?

I believe you're a bit confused you seem to be saying that certain events coincide, therefore they must be inextricably linked.

Re the muslim isn't motivated by their religion.

When the religion preaches that every one of these depravities is a legitimate practice for muslims, when they commit them and say they are following the qur'an, when they offer their atrocities up as a sacrifice to allah, I most certainly believe that islam causes islamic atrocities.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #159 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:37pm
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #160 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:17am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:37pm:

By Kitty Fields
When Kitty was a little girl she dreamed of being a museum curator or archaeologist. Now she studies and writes all about history.

Kitty Fields (AKA Kitty the Dreamer) grew up in an old haunted house where she encountered numerous spirits, namely ghosts and fairies. These experiences fueled her passion to seek the mysterious and to write about her discoveries. A true Sagittarius at heart, Kitty is a star-gazer and a philosopher. She is always looking for new horizons - new places to travel, new lessons to learn, new people to meet. When you don't find her writing, you will find her frolicking with the fairies and flying with the witches.
Kitty's favorite topics are almost always inspired by folklore, history, and the paranormal.




Yet to Bwian she's  an authoritative voice.

Grin Grin Grin


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #161 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:23am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Gnads: what's the answer?

If it's not SSM, what is it that 76% of Aussies agree with him on?

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #162 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 12:23pm
 
moses wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:43pm:
@ tickleandrose Reply #151 - Today at 9:59am

You've told us about pagan festivals t&r but you haven't told us how the Jews came to be celebrating what they call the Passover, which is the most relevant point in a discussion like this (the roots of Christianity).

The Jews celebrate the anniversary of when they were told to paint the side and upper door posts (some people believe side and upper posts would be a cross) of their house with the blood of a sacrificial lamb.

God would Passover these houses (with the cross in blood) when he was exacting retribution from the Egyptians.

That is what the Jews have been celebrating for about the last 3,500 years. They most certainly do not believe they are celebrating a pagan festival.

Now the crucifixion of Christ coincides exactly with the Passover, Christ was crucified on the Passover His blood replaces that of the sacrificial lamb and mankind is saved by faith in the Messiah. (Christs' blood on the cross is the last sacrifice required to save mankind).

Now can you tell me how any of this means that Christianity has its' roots in paganism?

I believe you're a bit confused you seem to be saying that certain events coincide, therefore they must be inextricably linked.

Re the muslim isn't motivated by their religion.

When the religion preaches that every one of these depravities is a legitimate practice for muslims, when they commit them and say they are following the qur'an, when they offer their atrocities up as a sacrifice to allah, I most certainly believe that islam causes islamic atrocities.


As I mentioned before Moses... you cannot go into the bible and find the reality.  You have to look at history from a secular point of view.   The truth is that, in ancient times, when, there are agriculture societies, the spring equinox was widely celebrated as a festival even before Christianity.  Yes, the Jewish passover happens to fall on that day, and yes the bible states Jesus resurrected around the time of Jewish Passover, but this does not take away the fact that those holidays had already been widely celebrated anyway, and often have pagan roots. 

And because back then, Christianity forbids pagans, and therefore, naturally, people had to change the name of the holidays to Easter.   Clearly, a way to control a population. 

Even now, the things that people do on Easter, are not necessary all Christian.  For example, the egg, the bunny, and even the hot cross bun. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #163 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 12:53pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:17am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:37pm:

By Kitty Fields
When Kitty was a little girl she dreamed of being a museum curator or archaeologist. Now she studies and writes all about history.

Kitty Fields (AKA Kitty the Dreamer) grew up in an old haunted house where she encountered numerous spirits, namely ghosts and fairies. These experiences fueled her passion to seek the mysterious and to write about her discoveries. A true Sagittarius at heart, Kitty is a star-gazer and a philosopher. She is always looking for new horizons - new places to travel, new lessons to learn, new people to meet. When you don't find her writing, you will find her frolicking with the fairies and flying with the witches.
Kitty's favorite topics are almost always inspired by folklore, history, and the paranormal.

Yet to Bwian she's  an authoritative voice.

Grin Grin Grin


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Attacking the source rather than the substance of what she writes, Soren?  Poor, poor, you.  You really are being rather foolish.  Show us what she has written is wrong.  Until you do, you're just a child who is bleating in the wilderness, lost since you escaped the little kiddies' playground where you belong.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #164 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 12:54pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 12:23pm:
As I mentioned before Moses... you cannot go into the bible and find the reality.  You have to look at history from a secular point of view.   The truth is that, in ancient times, when, there are agriculture societies, the spring equinox was widely celebrated as a festival even before Christianity.  Yes, the Jewish passover happens to fall on that day, and yes the bible states Jesus resurrected around the time of Jewish Passover, but this does not take away the fact that those holidays had already been widely celebrated anyway, and often have pagan roots. 

And because back then, Christianity forbids pagans, and therefore, naturally, people had to change the name of the holidays to Easter.   Clearly, a way to control a population. 

Even now, the things that people do on Easter, are not necessary all Christian.  For example, the egg, the bunny, and even the hot cross bun. 



The true origin of all the myths has been discovered much too often. There are too many keys to mythology, as there are too many cryptograms in Shakespeare. Everything is phallic; everything is totemistic; everything is seed-time and harvest; everything is ghosts and grave-offerings; everything is the golden bough of sacrifice; everything is the sun and moon; everything is everything. Every folk-lore student who knew a little more than his own monomania, every man of wider reading and critical culture has practically confessed that the bewilderment of these things left his brain spinning. Yet the whole trouble comes from a man trying to look at these stories from the outside, as if they were scientific objects. He has only to look at them from the inside, and ask himself how he would begin a story. A story may start with anything and go anywhere.

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100311h.html#ch15
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #165 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 1:14pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 12:53pm:
Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Attacking the source rather than the substance of what she writes, Soren?  Poor, poor, you.  You really are being rather foolish.  Show us what she has written is wrong. 


That did actually make me laugh, and from Brian of all people.  Amazingly self-unaware chutzpah!  The first thing luvvie cretins do is attack the source, and you Brian are a main offender.

Clowns like you only accept a self censored approved set of sources and if anything falls out of that, you don't address the substance, you and others of your ilk will instead post a meme of a laughing donkey or something.

It's amazing the hypocrisies you idiots indulge in.  It's nearly as funny as laughing at a source, then later in another debate using it as an authoritative reference, which I have seen happen here.

You clowns genuinely make me shake my head.   Grin Grin Grin

Though I do look forward to luvvies following Brian's exhortation to debate the substance and not the source, but I know that will never happen, after all, it requires more thought than just posting a meme as a rebuttal. Cool
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #166 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 1:15pm
 
Re Frank

Quote:
Yet the whole trouble comes from a man trying to look at these stories from the outside, as if they were scientific objects. He has only to look at them from the inside, and ask himself how he would begin a story. A story may start with anything and go anywhere. It may start with a bird without the bird being a totem; it may start with the sun without being a solar myth. It is said there are only ten plots in the world; and there will certainly be common and recurrent elements. Set ten thousand children talking at once, and telling tarradiddles about what they did in the wood, and it will not be hard to find parallels suggesting sun-worship or animal worship. Some of the stories may be pretty and some silly and some perhaps dirty; but they can only be judged as stories. In the modern dialect, they can only be judged aesthetically. It is strange that aesthetics, or mere feeling, which is now allowed to usurp where it has no rights at all, to wreck reason with pragmatism and morals with anarchy, is apparently not allowed to give a purely aesthetic judgement on what is obviously a purely aesthetic question. We may be fanciful about everything except fairy-tales.


Something for Moses to read no doubt   Smiley

I think the problem is not with the man who looks at those stories from scientific point of view.  Because, to study a religion or fancy tales, there are many aspects of it, that can be done.  For example, sun worship, at what particular time of the year, and why, do they have any bearings with equinox?  If so, then that means that particular culture have a system of recording, written language.  And so, more areas of study opens up.   I think if anything, its the man that looks at those stories from his own religious point of view that would make him more 'blind" and not able to begin a story at all. 

Interesting author.  Thank you.  Its interesting to see the mind work of an artist 100 years ago.   Smiley
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #167 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:01pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:23am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Gnads: what's the answer?

If it's not SSM, what is it that 76% of Aussies agree with him on?


 
It wasn't about SSM.

It's about migrant crime. Sudanese & Muslims specifically.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #168 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:03pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:01pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:23am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Gnads: what's the answer?

If it's not SSM, what is it that 76% of Aussies agree with him on?


 
It wasn't about SSM.

It's about migrant crime. Sudanese & Muslims specifically.


Okay.

Was it a survey?

Do you have a link?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #169 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:04pm
 
Secret Wars wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 1:14pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 12:53pm:
Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Attacking the source rather than the substance of what she writes, Soren?  Poor, poor, you.  You really are being rather foolish.  Show us what she has written is wrong. 


That did actually make me laugh, and from Brian of all people.  Amazingly self-unaware chutzpah!  The first thing luvvie cretins do is attack the source, and you Brian are a main offender.

Clowns like you only accept a self censored approved set of sources and if anything falls out of that, you don't address the substance, you and others of your ilk will instead post a meme of a laughing donkey or something.

It's amazing the hypocrisies you idiots indulge in.  It's nearly as funny as laughing at a source, then later in another debate using it as an authoritative reference, which I have seen happen here.

You clowns genuinely make me shake my head.   Grin Grin Grin

Though I do look forward to luvvies following Brian's exhortation to debate the substance and not the source, but I know that will never happen, after all, it requires more thought than just posting a meme as a rebuttal. Cool


Grin  Smiley
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #170 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:06pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:03pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:01pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:23am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Gnads: what's the answer?

If it's not SSM, what is it that 76% of Aussies agree with him on?


 
It wasn't about SSM.

It's about migrant crime. Sudanese & Muslims specifically.


Okay.

Was it a survey?

Do you have a link?


He's been interviewed all over the TV news media

find your own link.

If you were going to find some meme to put shyte on him or anyone else for that matter

you'd have it in an instant.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #171 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:07pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:06pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:03pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:01pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:23am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Gnads: what's the answer?

If it's not SSM, what is it that 76% of Aussies agree with him on?


 
It wasn't about SSM.

It's about migrant crime. Sudanese & Muslims specifically.


Okay.

Was it a survey?

Do you have a link?


He's been interviewed all over the TV news media

find your own link.

If you were going to find some meme to put shyte on him or anyone else for that matter

you'd have it in an instant.


All you had to do was say you lied.

We could have saved all this time.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #172 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #173 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 3:33pm
 
tickleandrose wrote: Reply #162 - Today at 12:23pm

Quote:
As I mentioned before Moses... you cannot go into the bible and find the reality.  You have to look at history from a secular point of view.   The truth is that, in ancient times, when, there are agriculture societies, the spring equinox was widely celebrated as a festival even before Christianity.  Yes, the Jewish passover happens to fall on that day, and yes the bible states Jesus resurrected around the time of Jewish Passover, but this does not take away the fact that those holidays had already been widely celebrated anyway, and often have pagan roots. 

And because back then, Christianity forbids pagans, and therefore, naturally, people had to change the name of the holidays to Easter.   Clearly, a way to control a population. 

Even now, the things that people do on Easter, are not necessary all Christian.  For example, the egg, the bunny, and even the hot cross bun.


You haven't given any correlation between a spring equinox and the Passover.

The festival of the Passover, is an annual weeklong festival commemorating the emancipation of Jewish peoples from slavery (in ancient Egypt). It is called Passover because the plague in Egypt that killed all firstborns passed over the Israelites’ homes, sparing the lives of their children.


Your whole argument is that they coincide in dates so therefore the Passover has its' roots in the spring equinox festival.

If what you say is true you must be able to tell us how and why they changed the nature of the festival.

if they wanted to thank God for the various seasons they could have quiet easily done so, after they believe that God is the creator therefore God is the reason we have seasonal differences.

For your argument to be true you have to tell us why they changed if they originally were celebrating the spring equinox.

Coinciding dates just don't cut it, as there would have been absolutely nothing wrong with giving thanks to God for the spring.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #174 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #175 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #176 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:09pm
 
Hang ten dissident Muslim clerics a week until the rest get the message and bow down to Christmas... talking to a lady today and she said she spent many early years in Arabia, due to her husband's job, and she had to toe their line every way every day.

Same rules apply here.. love it or get back to Sandland..... take your chances there in the 54 deg heat and freezing nights ....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #177 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:10pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



The Silenced Majority?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #178 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:26pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:01pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:23am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Gnads wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
3 more “moderate” Mohammedan imports running around their Islamic enclave with illegal guns - standard

No wonder 76% of Aussies agree with Senator Fraser Anning.


Agree what with Fraser Anning?  Anning was elected by 19 votes.  I cannot imagine more than that number agreeing with him, Gnads.    Roll Eyes


Gnads: what's the answer?

If it's not SSM, what is it that 76% of Aussies agree with him on?


 
It wasn't about SSM.

It's about migrant crime. Sudanese & Muslims specifically.


And what survey was this, Gnads?  Mmmm?    Roll Eyes
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85% of Australians support Multiculturalism - https://scanlonfoundation.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Social-Cohesion-2018-report-26-Nov.pdf
WWW  
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #179 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:29pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



Really?  I can't find any reference to 84% either, Soren.   Roll Eyes
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85% of Australians support Multiculturalism - https://scanlonfoundation.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Social-Cohesion-2018-report-26-Nov.pdf
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #180 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:43pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:10pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



The Silenced Majority?

Not allowed to say  Wink
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #181 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:50pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



That's terrorist attacks in Europe, in 2017.

16% were Jihadist.

84% were NOT Jihadist.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #182 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:53pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:50pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



That's terrorist attacks in Europe, in 2017.

16% were Jihadist.

84% were NOT Jihadist.


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy you stupid monomaniac.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #183 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:54pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:53pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:50pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



That's terrorist attacks in Europe, in 2017.

16% were Jihadist.

84% were NOT Jihadist.


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy you stupid monomaniac.


Are you disputing the official figures?

https://www.europol.europa.eu/activities-services/main-reports/european-union-te...
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #184 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:59pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:54pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:53pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:50pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



That's terrorist attacks in Europe, in 2017.

16% were Jihadist.

84% were NOT Jihadist.


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy you stupid monomaniac.


Are you disputing the official figures?

https://www.europol.europa.eu/activities-services/main-reports/european-union-te...

Wankpuffin's one hand fapping  - aaaaand he's off.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #185 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:25pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:54pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:53pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:50pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:21pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 2:10pm:


Gnads?

I Googled.  Found nothing.

Can you please provide a link that shows us exactly what 76% of Australians agree with him on?


Its actually 84%. Only 16% diasgree or don't  know.



That's terrorist attacks in Europe, in 2017.

16% were Jihadist.

84% were NOT Jihadist.


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy you stupid monomaniac.


Are you disputing the official figures?

https://www.europol.europa.eu/activities-services/main-reports/european-union-te...


Are you disputing official figures?

16% of terrorist attacks caused almost all deaths and injuries perpetrated by 4% of the population. Over 400% greater than all other
terrorist groups put together? Guess which group?

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nu ninda-an ezzateni watar-ma ekuteni
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #186 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:29pm
 
Hi Set,
you're back.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #187 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:51pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:29pm:
Hi Set,
you're back.


I'm a sock.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #188 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:54pm
 
Gregg are you disputing official figures or just ignoring them as inconvenient to your view?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1545777800/185#185
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #189 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:32pm
 
Setanta wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
Gregg are you disputing official figures or just ignoring them as inconvenient to your view?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1545777800/185#185


A yes or no will suffice.

I'm curious.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #190 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:36pm
 
Setanta wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
Gregg are you disputing official figures or just ignoring them as inconvenient to your view?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1545777800/185#185


Not disputing the figures at all.

Jihadist attacks = 16%

Non-Jihadist attacks = 84%

As I've said all along: the (vast) majority of terrorist attacks in Europe are carried out by non-Muslims.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #191 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:41pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:36pm:
Setanta wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
Gregg are you disputing official figures or just ignoring them as inconvenient to your view?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1545777800/185#185


Not disputing the figures at all.

Jihadist attacks = 16%

Non-Jihadist attacks = 84%

As I've said all along: the (vast) majority of terrorist attacks in Europe are carried out by non-Muslims.



So you are not disputing these official figures either from the same source?

Quote:
16% of terrorist attacks caused almost all deaths and injuries perpetrated by 4% of the population. Over 400% greater than all other
terrorist groups put together? Guess which group?


Good to know you accept them. Now why do you not quote that part of the stats and keep gumming on about stats that don't kill people?

I'm curious.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #192 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:44pm
 
Setanta wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:41pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:36pm:
Setanta wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
Gregg are you disputing official figures or just ignoring them as inconvenient to your view?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1545777800/185#185


Not disputing the figures at all.

Jihadist attacks = 16%

Non-Jihadist attacks = 84%

As I've said all along: the (vast) majority of terrorist attacks in Europe are carried out by non-Muslims.



So you are not disputing these official figures either from the same source?

Quote:
16% of terrorist attacks caused almost all deaths and injuries perpetrated by 4% of the population. Over 400% greater than all other
terrorist groups put together? Guess which group?


Good to know you accept them. Now why do you not quote that part of the stats and keep gumming on about stats that don't kill people?

I'm curious.


That's right - I'm not disputing them.

Never have.

Hard day, Set?


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #193 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:47pm