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Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder (Read 16453 times)
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #75 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:12am
 
Cu Chulainn wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:09am:
capitosinora wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:59am:


Oh no, it looks like she's about to fall! She's farqued.



She's black!
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #76 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:52am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61


You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam


I am not defending Mohammad or Islam.  I am just telling it as it is, we are talking about historic issues.  However, it does not mean there is no marriage that is free, and that there is no women in position of power.  There are exceptions.   Khadija was considered widely as the most important figure in Islam, and the mother of believers.  She was already very wealthy long before she married Mohammad. 

Secondly, the Bukhari I think is one of the six hadith of the Sunni sect of muslim, which I think.. the Shia sector does not really ... erh... conform to. Furthermore, the Bukhari scripture were completed around early to mid 8th century AD, and both Aisha and Mohammad lived in the 6th century. 


You are defending Islam and Muhammad, with spineless and inaccurate moral equivocating. "Telling it like it is" is just another excuse for what you are doing, but does not change what you are doing.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #77 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 11:36am
 
re Freediver:

Defending what?  This is ridiculous.  Just because you keep repeating of what you think I am doing does not make it true. 

I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.  Nothing in my post, I seek to defend the atrocities of the Islamic extremist.   In fact i criticized that through out history, women and children were subjugated, and treated like commodities by nearly all cultures.  I also pointed out, that perhaps, there are not enough historic (and debated) evidence, and as well in terms of historic context to suggest that Mohammad was infact a true pedophile. 

It is not like I am saying what a great person or his religion was. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #78 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:13pm
 
Quote:
I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.


... in defense of Islam and Muhammad.

You also said we should not blame Islam for the problems that Muslims are inflicting on the world today. Are you now saying this is not defending Islam and Muhammad?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #79 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:28pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61


You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam


I am not defending Mohammad or Islam.  I am just telling it as it is, we are talking about historic issues.  However, it does not mean there is no marriage that is free, and that there is no women in position of power.  There are exceptions.   Khadija was considered widely as the most important figure in Islam, and the mother of believers.  She was already very wealthy long before she married Mohammad. 

Secondly, the Bukhari I think is one of the six hadith of the Sunni sect of muslim, which I think.. the Shia sector does not really ... erh... conform to. Furthermore, the Bukhari scripture were completed around early to mid 8th century AD, and both Aisha and Mohammad lived in the 6th century. 


Aisha was considered the mother of believers don't let your ignorance get in the way of reality, perhaps you should do some research before making absurd claims.- https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=PcMuXPmWNoun8AWL5bfIAg&q=aisha+mot...


Bukhari is considered the most reliable of the sunni hadith while Al Kafi is the main shia hadith.


Was the author of the Shia hadith Al Kafi born 56 years after Muhammad Bukhari, was he 6 years old when Bukhari died?


If you want to dismiss Bukhari then surely you must dismiss the Shia hadith as well since it was written long after Sahih Al Bukhari


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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #80 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
Quote:
I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.


... in defense of Islam and Muhammad.

You also said we should not blame Islam for the problems that Muslims are inflicting on the world today. Are you now saying this is not defending Islam and Muhammad?


Well, freediver, if you treat anyone who seek to disagree with your assessment of something as supporting that something, then... well... how can I argue with that right?  Smiley

As to 'blame' Islam,  this an entire different question and topic all together.  And its far far more complicated than just Islam. 

To fully understand, the situation in the world right now, you have to at least go back to world war one.  You need to read up on the break up of the Ottoman Empire. On how the different states in the Middle East were formed and why.  Then you need to read up on world war 2, and the cold war that followed.  And see why some states are more allied to Russian / China  axis, and some towards Western influence. 

The bottom line is that Middle East throughout history had always been contested by various global powers.  You need to look past the veil of false pretension, and see the real motives behind various wars and attacks.  There... you will find that its more about the imperfection of man kind, rather than any religion.  I can guarantee you that had.. Mohammad failed in securing allies, and lost to the city of Medina, then, there will be another religion, another ideology in its place and the cycle of violence will still continue.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #81 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:16pm
 
Re Baron,

I think it really depends... 

https://www.google.com.au/search?ei=AM0uXNbIH4Ha8wXU34nYAg&q=khadijah+mother+of+the+believers&oq=khadija+mother+of+the+believers&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0i7i30j0i8i30j0i30.6824.8222..9222...0.0..0.366.2136.2-3j4......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i8i7i30._nlDCjyDzbw

And that is because... I think... the differences between Sunni and Shia.  But by all accounts, both Khadija and Aisha is worthy of such title.  Khadija was a prominent person, wealthy.  And in Mohammad's early years, he sought her opinion and judgements.  Aisha in later years, became an important leader and contributor in Islam. 

I am not discounting the Burkhari. But the fact is that there is big difference between different muslim sects when it comes to hadith.  For example, the Shia believe that no hadith is 100% authentic, and must be checked against the Quran and established principals.   

Now, if you look at it from a third person perspective.  You have a written account of someone who said something - the actual book is 100 to 200 years after the death of the person described within.   And you have people within the same faith not entirely sure of the authenticity of those words.  Can you then, still take those written words as absolute authentic? 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #82 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 2:31pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
Quote:
I was putting forward and debating about historic occurrences.


... in defense of Islam and Muhammad.

You also said we should not blame Islam for the problems that Muslims are inflicting on the world today. Are you now saying this is not defending Islam and Muhammad?


Well, freediver, if you treat anyone who seek to disagree with your assessment of something as supporting that something, then... well... how can I argue with that right?  Smiley

As to 'blame' Islam,  this an entire different question and topic all together.  And its far far more complicated than just Islam. 

To fully understand, the situation in the world right now, you have to at least go back to world war one.  You need to read up on the break up of the Ottoman Empire. On how the different states in the Middle East were formed and why.  Then you need to read up on world war 2, and the cold war that followed.  And see why some states are more allied to Russian / China  axis, and some towards Western influence. 

The bottom line is that Middle East throughout history had always been contested by various global powers.  You need to look past the veil of false pretension, and see the real motives behind various wars and attacks.  There... you will find that its more about the imperfection of man kind, rather than any religion.  I can guarantee you that had.. Mohammad failed in securing allies, and lost to the city of Medina, then, there will be another religion, another ideology in its place and the cycle of violence will still continue. 


No rose, I treat anyone who defends Islam by saying idiotic things like "we must not blame Islam" as defending Islam.

But would that other religion be anywhere near as bad as Islam? It is difficult to find one that is. Nazism, perhaps.

Also, other than vague allusions to WWI, how do you explain your position that ISIS and all the other Islamist extremist movements trying to destroy modern civilisation have nothing to do with Islam?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #83 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 3:18pm
 
Ah, I am glad that you ask actually.  I once read a passage off a translated Asian book, and it goes something like this:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

For simplicity sake, lets have the case study as ISIL for now.

ISIL if you remember was originally came to prominence after the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 to overthrow its dictator.  It existed in group prior to that in the 1990s, however, it was not a prominent, certainly lacked the power to take over parts of Iraq and Syria.   But after Iraq plunged into chaos in the following decade, and the start of Arab Spring and Syrian civil war.  ISIL took over large tracts of lands and named itself ISIL, and declared itself a world wide caliphate. 

They came to power, not through theological means, but through barbaric and violent treatment of people on the lands that it occupies. 

As those regions of middle east had been at war for many decades - through the struggles of US / Russia / China, and through local struggles between Sunni and Shia.  In those times of chaos, in order to control a region, the most effective method is for show of force and ruthlessness.   And hence they adopted a particular extemist view of Islam.   Something that, every other Islamic country in the region - including, Iraq, Iran, and even Saudi Arabia (well officially) disagrees. 

Under ISIL, people lived in hardship and fear.  And so people have no real loyalty towards them.  As such, both Russian aided Syrian force, and US aided Iraqi forces including kurdish were able to retake most of the areas.   

So, what ISIL is, is just another group with its leadership wanting a piece of pie in the Middle east, to control its people land wealth and power.   Sure, it uses a brand of Islam Extremistism as cover and excuse for conducting atrocities at the same time.  But, at its core, as a group, they reflect the fundamental flaws of humanity rather than a religion itself.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #84 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 4:46pm
 
Quote:
They came to power, not through theological means, but through barbaric and violent treatment of people on the lands that it occupies. 


Just like Muhammad did.

Can you explain how ISIL managed to recruit so many foreign jihadis, if not through "theological means"? Did they scare them all into flying halfway round the world to fight for the new Caliphate?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #85 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:29pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:10am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....

So communists and communism are two different things? Catholics and Catholicism? 

What you are telling us that only muslims who are take Islam seriously are the dangerous ones. The backsliders and part-timers and yeah-but-no-butters are harmless.



Depends how you draw the lines - most 'communists' live under a communist government - by definition a minority.  Most Catholics live quiet and non-extreme lives under a religious and secualr set of rules.  There are extreme communists and extreme Catholics who advocate killing others to further their beliefs... but these are few and far between and not 'mainstream' - unlike Islamism which has masses of adherents.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #86 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:14am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:41am:
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:21am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am:
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus. 


He was thrown out of his tribe ... ran to hide with the Medians .... got their trust found a few supporters and then slaughtered 800 & told the others to convert to his way or cop the same.

He was the exact opposite to Jesus.

He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.


From what I know, in earlier years, Mohammad was a merchant that travels alot.  He was driven out from Mecca because at the time, it had a polytheist religion.   The take over of Mecca in later years, was largely bloodless. 

By definition, anyone around those times living in those area, with a large army supporting him is a warlord. Before his death, he was able to unify most of Arabia under his banner.  And that is no small achievement. 

And you cant compare Mohammad to Jesus.  Because, in Christian belief, Jesus is god.  And even in Islam, Mohammad is not god, but a prophet of god. 

As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.


You're wrong there ... in Christianity Jesus is the son of God ... not God. Born of Mary by immaculate conception from God.

So in effect he was Gods prophet on earth .... just like Mohammad self claimed to be.

Quote:
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…


btw I'm not religious.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #87 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:22am
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?


Just like God slaughtered Egyptians and had sex with a Judean child?

Quote:
We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse.  God was how old when he committed adultery with a virgin child named Mary?

God was a paedo.



Since when was Mary, a married woman(Joseph) a child?

And if you had any preconceptions of God at anytime throughout your life ... why would he need to have physical sex with Mary?

Did you have to go taxi driving because you got the arse out of legal  advocacy because all you did was become a baseless argumentative pain?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #88 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:32am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:56pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:21pm:
Quote:
You have Aisha's own words, my arse.


Aussie your complete ignorance of what you are talking about is not evidence.

Quote:
Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.


And I am asking you why. All you have offered by way of explanation is excuses for Muhammad slaughtering Jews and having sex with children.

Quote:
Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.


You are misleading people with statistics. The low average was significantly affected by the high infant death rate. Do you know what the median age of death for adults was?

Quote:
And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.


Exactly. So how does this justify sex with 9 year old girls? Is there some kind of compulsion to have sex with children before they die from childhood diseases?

Quote:
Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile


Yes there was.

Quote:
I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well.


In the middle ages, slavery was coming to an end in Europe under the influence of Christianity, while Muslims were depopulating the coast of Italy by hunting little girls to have sex with.


Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.  Our ancestors at that time is no different.  And therefore, its a bit rich for you to stand high and mighty on your moral ground, criticizing in the 21st century.    But why stop there? Like Aussie said, even virgin Mary was a child when she was pregnant with Jesus.   Our christian priests are abusing children sexually. 

Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.  I am merely pointing out the historical context.  Mind you, Mohammad did not have sex with children.  Children means more than one.  Is there another one? 

And as to massacre the Jews.  Well, once again, it was largely a lawless world back then.  Its either you  kill the other, or the other kill you.


Yes he did ... and do you honestly think Aisha was the only one?  Grin

You seem to not to be able to translate the actions of this Mohammad person to the actions of his followers today ... some 1400 years on.

And Mohammad wasn't killing to save being killed ... he was killing to take out those who opposed him or would not convert  ....

All your responses have been generalised excuse making for a person who was a total maniac & paedophile ............. who now has 1.8 billion followers who put him up as the perfect individual & religious diety ... a messenger of God.  Roll Eyes
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Gnads
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Australian Politics

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #89 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:40am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

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Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 



And when you mention that our ancestor at the time is no different.  I would have to disagree.  Read up on the 1st crusade, and in particular, the people's crusade, and the prince's crusade.  And you can make up the judgement yourself.   Smiley


That's exactly what you don't do.
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