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Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder (Read 16462 times)
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #60 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:12pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?



Not so much as 'disbelieve' as 'believe without question.'  When did this likely mythical bloke Bukhari  write this obviously hearsay account of what some nine year old allegedly said?  Why would anyone at the time give a two-penny farq about what some nine year old irrelevant kid said way back then?

Nah....just like the Bible...this is all bullshit propaganda which is based loosely on what allegedly happened a zillion years ago.

Just rubbish.

Some people need to believe in sky fairies.  I missed the queue where that need was being dispensed.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #61 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61




You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #62 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:28pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:12pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?



Not so much as 'disbelieve' as 'believe without question.'  When did this likely mythical bloke Bukhari  write this obviously hearsay account of what some nine year old allegedly said?  Why would anyone at the time give a two-penny farq about what some nine year old irrelevant kid said way back then?

Nah....just like the Bible...this is all bullshit propaganda which is based loosely on what allegedly happened a zillion years ago.

Just rubbish.

Some people need to believe in sky fairies.  I missed the queue where that need was being dispensed.


Muhammad founded the largest empire that had ever existed Aussie, as well as a major world religion. It is not a fairy tale, despite your best efforts to use your ignorance of Islam as evidence it did not exist.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #63 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:44pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:12pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?



Not so much as 'disbelieve' as 'believe without question.'  When did this likely mythical bloke Bukhari  write this obviously hearsay account of what some nine year old allegedly said?  Why would anyone at the time give a two-penny farq about what some nine year old irrelevant kid said way back then?

Just rubbish.

Some people need to believe in sky fairies.  I missed the queue where that need was being dispensed.



The whole Islamic religion is based on hearsay arsie, the Quran was not created by Allah creator of the universe it was made into a book 23 years after Muhammad died by the Caliph Uthman because the hafiz (those who memorised the quran) were getting killed in battles. The Quran was passed down by word of mouth by the Hafiz for 23 years before it was made into a book.


If you have a problem with Bukhari i suggest you tell a muslim Bukhari is full of poo, what could go wrong   Grin

What gets me is why leftists like you, little pecca,brian, mothra and the maniac monkey defend this belief based on sky fairies
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #64 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 

And when you mention that our ancestor at the time is no different.  I would have to disagree.  Read up on the 1st crusade, and in particular, the people's crusade, and the prince's crusade.  And you can make up the judgement yourself.   Smiley
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #65 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 5:16pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 

And when you mention that our ancestor at the time is no different.  I would have to disagree.  Read up on the 1st crusade, and in particular, the people's crusade, and the prince's crusade.  And you can make up the judgement yourself.   Smiley


Muslims say Muhammad was a perfect example of man are you saying we cannot refute that bullshit?
https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=A7YtXPv4EsWD8gWmsZ2gCw&q=muhammad+...


The Crusades were a response to Islamic conquests please read some history
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #66 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 5:26pm
 
I read this far.

Quote:
The whole Islamic religion is based on hearsay arsie,


Correct.  So is Christianity.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #67 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 6:28pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #68 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 8:55pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?


Freediver, you seemed to be very fixated that anyone who disagree with you is an apologist.   I am not one of the apologist.  I am just tell it as it is.  And you are right, the same thing is happening in the world right now, and there is alot more work to be done.   But, blaming it on someone who lived in 6th century AD, is not going to make any difference at all. 


Are you suggesting that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam?

What makes you so sure that ignoring the elephant in the room is a better way to make the elephant go away?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #69 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm
 
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #70 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:02am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....


Are you saying that Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #71 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:10am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:37pm:
Islam and Islamism are two different terms.... one is used to denote the religious belief system - the other is used to denote the extreme or fundamental interpretation of that belief system.

When you discuss IS etc - you must discuss Islamism - and not Islam.  Even many Islamic nations oppose Islamism for the simple reason that it reduces their society under the despotism of religious extremists.

IS and the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, are examples of Islamism, and not of Islam.

As I've explained before, the Muslim Spring could have been viewed from either direction, Islamic fundamentalism or a popular uprising, and was dependent on countless factors - at the outset it was a popular demand for more equalities and a fairer share in government etc - but in some areas it was hijacked by the extremists/fundamentalists mentioned, who saw in it the path to power.

Every rat racing Islamist and radical and fundamentalist saw in it a path to power and control - by an absolute authoritarian rule under their interpretation of Islam, and thus sought and often attained secular power under the cloak of a religious belief.

The Taliban are an example, as are the Iranian Ayatollahs etc....

So communists and communism are two different things? Catholics and Catholicism? 

What you are telling us that only muslims who are take Islam seriously are the dangerous ones. The backsliders and part-timers and yeah-but-no-butters are harmless.

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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #72 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:18am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:25pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
 In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 



Bukhari is very clear on how young Aisha was when Muhammad married her.


Khadija was arounf 40 when she married Muhammad who was around 25, she was the only wife he had who was older than him while he was married to her he took no other wives.


Can you cite any Islamic text that say Sawda was 55 when she married Muhammad and by Islamic texts i mean Quran or Sunnah.
Muhammad married Sawda in his 10 th year of prophethood after the death of Khadija  she died 54 years after Hijra which was 56 years after she married Muhammad so according to your bullshit Sawda lived to be over 110 years of age. Nothing about Sawdas age in any texts most think she was between 27-37 years of age when she married $$ Profit Mo.

If women were viewed as commodities and part of a power play explain why Khadija one of the richest women in Arabia was able to take a much younger toy boy?


Abu Bakr and his daughter Aisha were neighbors of Muhammad and Khadija he was one of the first to buy into the horse manure called Islam Muhammad was selling.
The sky fairy told Muhmmad Aisha would be his wife, how convenient, better tell Abu Bakr he will burn in hell if he doesn't let me marry his daughter
Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to me), "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/61


You are not telling it like it is you are resorting to spineless apologetics in defending Muhammad and Islam


I am not defending Mohammad or Islam.  I am just telling it as it is, we are talking about historic issues.  However, it does not mean there is no marriage that is free, and that there is no women in position of power.  There are exceptions.   Khadija was considered widely as the most important figure in Islam, and the mother of believers.  She was already very wealthy long before she married Mohammad. 

Secondly, the Bukhari I think is one of the six hadith of the Sunni sect of muslim, which I think.. the Shia sector does not really ... erh... conform to. Furthermore, the Bukhari scripture were completed around early to mid 8th century AD, and both Aisha and Mohammad lived in the 6th century. 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #73 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:59am
 
...
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #74 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:09am
 
capitosinora wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:59am:


Oh no, it looks like she's about to fall! She's farqued.

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