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Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder (Read 16473 times)
tickleandrose
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #45 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus.
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Gnads
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #46 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:21am
 
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am:
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus. 


He was thrown out of his tribe ... ran to hide with the Medians .... got their trust found a few supporters and then slaughtered 800 & told the others to convert to his way or cop the same.

He was the exact opposite to Jesus.

He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.
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miketrees
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #47 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:38am
 
He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.



People really are that stupid, like sheep they will follow for fear of being separated from the herd.

I should have started my own religion years ago,,, and yes it would involve worshiping me of course.
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tickleandrose
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #48 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:41am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:21am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 11:08am:
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am:
tickleandrose wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:51am:
Muhammad reinvented Judaism and Christianity at the same time as Islam - as he was fond of explaining to the Jews while threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Every Muslim we have had here does the same. I guess that was easier than trying to understand them.


It is not as simple as that.  Pre Islamic Arabia region consist of polytheism, with different tribes worshiping their gods or goddesses.  Its a dry land, so farming is very difficult.  So you have many small settlements or towns.   Prior to the second part of 6th century, there were increased conflicts.  And the dominant religions were: the Christians to the Persian Gulf, and Jews to the East near Yemen.  Mohammad belonged to a strong tribe on the West side.  And so probably Islam drew more of their beliefs from the Christians at the time.

At the same time, the strong Christian Kingdom - the Byzantine were involved in constant wars with the Persians.  And so giving the tribes in Arabia a breathing space to sort out their differences and become dominant.  Mohammad with his new brand of monotheism - a variation of Christianity and Judaism became the dominant force.  And the rest is history of course.   

The important issue here is that, during that time.  No matter what religion that you are in.  In the time of Chaos, and the battles of the warlords, you either convert (convert really means to surrender), or die.  If you dont do that, someone else will kill you.  Such was life.  Only the strong survives. 

So Islam is all politics and warring rivalries.


Frank, you will find that if you look into the basis of everything.  Religion is just but a tool to control the people, and to rule over the lands.   The tribe that Mohammad was in, was one of the stronger ones, controlling fertile lands over Medina, and Mecca.   In 6th century Earth, humans are very superstitious  - which is same in Europe, and Asia.  During those times, in order to rule, not only you have to have a strong economy and army, you also have to have a higher cause - a religion. 

It is no different to say a Chinese Emperor is viewed as heaven's son.  The English King is the head of the Anglican church.  And if you look at the crusader wars, the motives behind it is far from spreading the word of Jesus. 


He was thrown out of his tribe ... ran to hide with the Medians .... got their trust found a few supporters and then slaughtered 800 & told the others to convert to his way or cop the same.

He was the exact opposite to Jesus.

He was a treacherous Warlord, rapist, slaver, mass murderering pedophile .....

that 1.8 billion people follow his doctrine & consider him their Holy prophet & messenger of God/Allah speaks volumes.


From what I know, in earlier years, Mohammad was a merchant that travels alot.  He was driven out from Mecca because at the time, it had a polytheist religion.   The take over of Mecca in later years, was largely bloodless. 

By definition, anyone around those times living in those area, with a large army supporting him is a warlord. Before his death, he was able to unify most of Arabia under his banner.  And that is no small achievement. 

And you cant compare Mohammad to Jesus.  Because, in Christian belief, Jesus is god.  And even in Islam, Mohammad is not god, but a prophet of god. 

As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #49 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 12:08pm
 
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As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.


Are you going to tell us about the context to having sex with children?

Would you say that Muhammad's takeover of Medina was bloodless?
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tickleandrose
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #50 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 12:08pm:
Quote:
As to if he is a pedophile, well, again, you have to look at the context, and not just pub talks.


Are you going to tell us about the context to having sex with children?

Would you say that Muhammad's takeover of Medina was bloodless?


Well, it really depends on where your information is coming from.  Much of the Quran is about looking through the eyes of Mohammad to the world, and what he will do.  There is not much about his life.  And over the thousands of years, these are again mixed with legends.   In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad. 

Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children, and that he actively sought them out.  So Aisha was his third wife.  His first wife Khadija was 40, second one, Sawda was 55. 

Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.  Yes there were dark times.  Everyone does it, Christians, Muslims, polytheist, Jews.  Girls can be betrothed at 3 years of age, and married off.   In fact, as of 2018, there are still 18 states in USA that do not have minimal ages for marriage. 

Then we look at the context of the marriage itself.  Aisha was the daughter of one of Mohammad's most powerful allies.   In fact, her father became the leader when Mohammad died.  And Aisha herself went on to become an important and disguisihed figure in history on her own.  Her marriage was not because of Mohammad's lust for a child, but rather, it was common for that time, to have a child married to an ally. 

Mohammad spent his life spreading Islam, and consolidate his power over Arabia. 

What does a pedophile do?  Look at people like Peter Scully, and what he did.  Then you will know what a true pedophile is alike.

Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.  But we have to look at facts and contexts before we make our statements.   I am just telling it as it is. 
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« Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:15pm by tickleandrose »  
 
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #51 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:58pm
 
Quote:
Well, it really depends on where your information is coming from.  Much of the Quran is about looking through the eyes of Mohammad to the world, and what he will do.


You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?

Quote:
There is not much about his life.  And over the thousands of years, these are again mixed with legends.   In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad.
 

We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....

Quote:
Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children


Nice. So he just buggered anything that moved? Adult or child? What point are you trying to make here?

Quote:
Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.


Thanks to Islam, they still are in much of the world. They would still be viewed as sex slaves if not for a few centuries of western intervention, and even here Muslims still challenge us.

Quote:
Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.


So, other than offering one excuse after another for Muhammad, what are you trying to do?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #52 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm
 
Quote:
You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?


Just like God slaughtered Egyptians and had sex with a Judean child?

Quote:
We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse.  God was how old when he committed adultery with a virgin child named Mary?

God was a paedo.

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tickleandrose
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #53 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 1:58pm:
Quote:
Well, it really depends on where your information is coming from.  Much of the Quran is about looking through the eyes of Mohammad to the world, and what he will do.


You mean slaughtering Jews and having sex with children?

Quote:
There is not much about his life.  And over the thousands of years, these are again mixed with legends.   In truth, there is no firm consensus from scholars on just how old Aisha was when she married Mohammad.
 

We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....

Quote:
Then, there is no evidence from Mohammad's other marriages - many of them older than him, nor there is any text to suggest that he had a persuasive interest in children


Nice. So he just buggered anything that moved? Adult or child? What point are you trying to make here?

Quote:
Then, we look at the context of that time.  Back then, girls were viewed as part of power play and commodities.


Thanks to Islam, they still are in much of the world. They would still be viewed as sex slaves if not for a few centuries of western intervention, and even here Muslims still challenge us.

Quote:
Now, I am not trying to somehow legitimize Mohammad.


So, other than offering one excuse after another for Muhammad, what are you trying to do?


Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.  Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.   And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.   Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile, and child marriages are widely accepted and practiced by every religion and tribe.  So that is the context.  Sure, you can use 21 century standard to criticize him if that is what you wish.

I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well. 


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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #54 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:21pm
 
Quote:
You have Aisha's own words, my arse.


Aussie your complete ignorance of what you are talking about is not evidence.

Quote:
Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.


And I am asking you why. All you have offered by way of explanation is excuses for Muhammad slaughtering Jews and having sex with children.

Quote:
Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.


You are misleading people with statistics. The low average was significantly affected by the high infant death rate. Do you know what the median age of death for adults was?

Quote:
And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.


Exactly. So how does this justify sex with 9 year old girls? Is there some kind of compulsion to have sex with children before they die from childhood diseases?

Quote:
Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile


Yes there was.

Quote:
I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well.


In the middle ages, slavery was coming to an end in Europe under the influence of Christianity, while Muslims were depopulating the coast of Italy by hunting little girls to have sex with.
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tickleandrose
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #55 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:21pm:
Quote:
You have Aisha's own words, my arse.


Aussie your complete ignorance of what you are talking about is not evidence.

Quote:
Oh Freediver, you dont need to be so emotional.  I am just trying to say that you need to stay in context.


And I am asking you why. All you have offered by way of explanation is excuses for Muhammad slaughtering Jews and having sex with children.

Quote:
Even if the texts are true, during those times, children were married off like commodities.  Now, keep in mind, that back then, the average life span of a human is around 30.


You are misleading people with statistics. The low average was significantly affected by the high infant death rate. Do you know what the median age of death for adults was?

Quote:
And 1/2 of the human population then do not survive after 10 years of age.


Exactly. So how does this justify sex with 9 year old girls? Is there some kind of compulsion to have sex with children before they die from childhood diseases?

Quote:
Back then, there is no such thing as a pedophile


Yes there was.

Quote:
I also encourage you too look at medieval English history.  You will find a number of child brides and ... pregnant children around as well.


In the middle ages, slavery was coming to an end in Europe under the influence of Christianity, while Muslims were depopulating the coast of Italy by hunting little girls to have sex with.


Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.  Our ancestors at that time is no different.  And therefore, its a bit rich for you to stand high and mighty on your moral ground, criticizing in the 21st century.    But why stop there? Like Aussie said, even virgin Mary was a child when she was pregnant with Jesus.   Our christian priests are abusing children sexually. 

Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.  I am merely pointing out the historical context.  Mind you, Mohammad did not have sex with children.  Children means more than one.  Is there another one? 

And as to massacre the Jews.  Well, once again, it was largely a lawless world back then.  Its either you  kill the other, or the other kill you.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #56 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #57 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #58 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:01pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 2:15pm:
Quote:
[quote]We have aisha's own words. She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. A 9 year old girl. And he was over 50 and nearly dead. So tell us all how the context changes this....


You have Aisha's own words, my arse. 



Quote:
Narrated `Aisha:


that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70


What do the Islamic texts say Arsie?


Dunno...can you quote the actual words spoken by this Aisha child?  Effendi reckons she said something, but he did not say what she said or where the eyewitnesses were when she said these alleged words, or even who they are....or, when they were recorded and by whom.


Bukhari quoted what Aisha said about marrying Muhammad at 6 then consummating the marriage at 9.


Do you disbelieve what the Islamic texts say about Aishas age?
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Re: Muslim cleric: ‘Merry Christmas’ worse than murder
Reply #59 - Jan 3rd, 2019 at 4:04pm
 
Quote:
Excuses for what?  What happened happened.  It was during those times, where war pillage rape child brides were common.  THAT is human history.


Earth to rose: it is still happening today, thanks to Islam, and all those who spinelessly apologise for it.

Quote:
Our ancestors at that time is no different.


They were different, even at that time.

Quote:
Freediver, there is no use to make excuses.


Yet that is all you do. Why?
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