Australian Politics Forum - Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios

Robot Senior Member Offline Conspirator Posts: 441 Engadine Maccas	Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios Reply #45 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 4:58pm lee wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 11:19am: So what was the cost of a new coal plant? The cost of feedstock? Cheaper or dearer than gas? You can't replace gas with coal because you can't use coal plants for despatchable power; they're only feasible if they're run constantly.
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lee

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #46 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:06pm

Robot wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 4:58pm:

You can't replace gas with coal because you can't use coal plants for despatchable power; they're only feasible if they're run constantly.

Coal plants are used for despatchable power, that's why they can run on their lonesome.

They are just not feasible to ramp up and down. That is why you have to rely on expensive gas in conjunction with solar and wind.

If there were no solar and wind coal would still be feasible. It is solar and wind that can't promise despatchable power. Wink

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Robot Senior Member Offline Conspirator Posts: 441 Engadine Maccas	Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios Reply #47 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:20pm lee wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:06pm: Coal plants are used for despatchable power, that's why they can run on their lonesome. They are just not feasible to ramp up and down. Makes them pretty useless as despatchable power, then. All that coal burned to generate power that nobody wants.
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lee

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #48 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 10:21pm

Robot wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

Makes them pretty useless as despatchable power, then. All that coal burned to generate power that nobody wants.

Except that solar and wind aren't despatchable. Now that's more than "pretty useless".

So you have your terms confused. Coal - despatchable, Solar and wind non-despatchable. Wink

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Robot

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #49 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 11:14pm

lee wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 10:21pm:

Robot wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

Makes them pretty useless as despatchable power, then. All that coal burned to generate power that nobody wants.

Except that solar and wind aren't despatchable. Now that's more than "pretty useless".

So you have your terms confused. Coal - despatchable, Solar and wind non-despatchable. Wink

You can't even grasp the basics. Wink

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Robot

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #50 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 11:51pm

lee wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:06pm:

Coal plants are used for despatchable power, that's why they can run on their lonesome.

They are just not feasible to ramp up and down.

lee doesn't understand that the former statement is falsified by the latter.

Coal plants have to stay on else they aren't worth running at all. They aren't used as despatchable power.

You can see on opennem.org.au that black coal plants do ramp up a little bit, but very slowly over hours, while actual despatchables (gas CCGT and steam turbines) ramp up and down within minutes. Victoria's brown coal doesn't ramp at all, it just trips repeatedly. In SA, gas despatchables ramp up supply when wind and solar power dwindles. Coal can't do that job.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16400 Gender:	Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios Reply #51 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 2:33pm Robot wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 11:14pm: You can't even grasp the basics. You are the one touting renewables and can't get it right.
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lee

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #52 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 2:38pm

Robot wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 11:51pm:

Coal plants have to stay on else they aren't worth running at all. They aren't used as despatchable power.

You do understand what despatchable power is? It seems not.

It is simply the power that can be despatched when needed. So for solar and wind to be despatchable they would have to be capable of running 24/7. That is why the cost of batteries have to be factored into this "cheap" option. Wink

Tell us about the sun shining at night, or wind blowing all the time.

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juliar

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #53 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 2:58pm

What the technical hexspurts overlook is that industrial load is CONTINUOUS requiring power 24/7 and is an IDEAL load for primary cheap coal and very unsuitable for secondary unreliable unstable mouse power solar and wind.

EG the Tomago aluminium smelter off Liddell coal generator.

So for industrial load the expensive gas turbines will be running just about full time filling in the many dips in supply from secondary renewables. This equals EXPENSIVE POWER making industry uncompetitive with overseas.

Bear in mind industrial power is BIG POWER which requires horse power and is not some tiny load.

So why do you think the Greeny Extremists want to CLOSE DOWN ALL INDUSTRY IN AUSTRALIA ?

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Robot

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #54 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 3:08pm

lee wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 2:38pm:

Robot wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 11:51pm:

Coal plants have to stay on else they aren't worth running at all. They aren't used as despatchable power.

You do understand what despatchable power is? It seems not.

It is simply the power that can be despatched when needed. So for solar and wind to be despatchable they would have to be capable of running 24/7. That is why the cost of batteries have to be factored into this "cheap" option. Wink

Tell us about the sun shining at night, or wind blowing all the time.

You can't even grasp the basics. Wink

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Robot

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #55 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 3:15pm

juliar wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 2:58pm:

What the technical hexspurts overlook is that industrial load is CONTINUOUS requiring power 24/7 and is an IDEAL load for primary cheap coal and very unsuitable for secondary unreliable unstable mouse power solar and wind.

EG the Tomago aluminium smelter off Liddell coal generator.

So for industrial load the expensive gas turbines will be running just about full time filling in the many dips in supply from secondary renewables. This equals EXPENSIVE POWER making industry uncompetitive with overseas.

Bear in mind industrial power is BIG POWER which requires horse power and is not some tiny load.

So why do you think the Greeny Extremists want to CLOSE DOWN ALL INDUSTRY IN AUSTRALIA ?

Coal power plants trip all the time, causing smelter lines to go down. Your idea is stupid.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16400 Gender:	Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios Reply #56 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 4:30pm Robot wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 3:08pm: You can't even grasp the basics. The fact you can't correct my post strongly suggests otherwise.
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Robot Senior Member Offline Conspirator Posts: 441 Engadine Maccas	Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios Reply #57 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 4:40pm lee wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 4:30pm: Robot wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 3:08pm: You can't even grasp the basics. The fact you can't correct my post strongly suggests otherwise. At this point, it's clear the subject matter is beyond your grasp.
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lee

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #58 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 5:10pm

Robot wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 4:40pm:

At this point, it's clear the subject matter is beyond your grasp

Hmm.

"Dispatchable generation refers to a type of generation based on fossil fuels or hydro power that can be controlled to balance electricity supply and demand."

https://theconversation.com/baffled-by-baseload-dumbfounded-by-dispatchables-her...

You have been shown to be talking Bovine Excrement. Wink

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Robot

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Re: Some Australian Electrical Generation Scenarios
Reply #59 - Dec 17^th, 2018 at 5:35pm

lee wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 5:10pm:

Robot wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 4:40pm:

At this point, it's clear the subject matter is beyond your grasp

Hmm.

"Dispatchable generation refers to a type of generation based on fossil fuels or hydro power that can be controlled to balance electricity supply and demand."

https://theconversation.com/baffled-by-baseload-dumbfounded-by-dispatchables-her...

You have been shown to be talking Bovine Excrement. Wink

Desperate quote-mining. Grin

"Dispatchable generation refers to a type of generation based on fossil fuels or hydro power that can be controlled to balance electricity supply and demand. More flexible power plants based on natural gas firing (such as open-cycle gas turbines or hydro power plants) can operate at partial loading and respond to short-term changes in supply and demand. "

Gas, not coal. Wink

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