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All Muslims support genocide (Read 58124 times)
Yadda
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #405 - Jun 19th, 2019 at 7:19am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 6:06pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 4:08pm:
G, I'm curious. You've met a few Muselmen in your time. In your experience, do any of them support genocide?

Also, how many are practitioners of taqiyya?


None support genocide - therefore all of them are taqiyya practitioners - right?  Cheesy




.....also, the moslem,      has absolutely no obligation to [fight for] Allah's religion, either.

Eh, gandalf ?

/sarc off


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1543371381/404#404



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #406 - Jun 19th, 2019 at 2:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 9:40pm:
It's an observation Gandalf.



Right, so you're not even bothering to even pretend to present arguments then. Good to know.

Would you like to have a go at answering my question now?

If muslims can't be "completely aloof" from Muhammad - can they be "partly aloof" - for example on a matter of hearsay that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine?

Quote:
You keep conjuring up these theoretical Muslims and demanding I address figments of your imagination.


You conjured up "theoretical muslims" in your OP FD. The discussion since has necessarily been about 'theoretical muslims', because your entire argument is based on a theoretical attempt at deductive reasoning. You seem to have great difficulty understanding this basic point, so here it is again:

Quote:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.



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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #407 - Jun 19th, 2019 at 6:44pm
 
Quote:
You conjured up "theoretical muslims" in your OP FD.


Are you real Gandalf? What about every other Muslim who has posted about Muhammad's genocide here?

Even you acknowledge that your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority. Do you now want me to prove something that we both agree on?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #408 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 12:58am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Are you real Gandalf? What about every other Muslim who has posted about Muhammad's genocide here?


The first paragraph asserts what every single muslim on earth thinks and why. You obviously can't demonstrate this (not even with bogus 'take my word for it' non-quotes of forum members), so it then becomes a deductive reasoning exercise, as I keep trying to explain to you: the Quran says x, so muslims must not do y, therefore all muslims do z. That is called "logic" FD, it is not an argument with any actual evidence - it cannot possibly be an argument with actual evidence given the restraints you yourself put on it ("*EVERY* muslim "DOES" (supports) this particular thing in reality"). Your fake paraphrasing of actual muslims that comes after that would not be supporting your argument even if they were accurate. Why? Because you are not arguing what 1 or 4 muslims support, you are arguing what every single muslim on earth supports.

So you are then left with 2 options for prosecuting your argument: either you argue that your fake quotes/'trust-me-he-said-it of 1 or 4 (whatever) muslims on a forum "proves" how 1.5 billion muslims from all corners of the globe think - exactly like a mindless collective, or you concede that your argument isn't actually one that is based on any hard evidence, but rather on logic that is based on your understanding of Islamic teachings.

You opened the debate with the latter - ie that paragraph of deductive reasoning I keep quoting for you. Faced with the inconvenient realization that your argument is presented as logic - yet because of how you state it, demands actual evidence, you have flailed about ever since with a ridiculous 'you must prove a negative' defence. Time and time again when confronted with your lack of evidence, your resposne has invariably been the incoherent taunt "you have failed to prove it isn't so!". And apparently even now you still don't understand how such a retort is logically fallacious.

Your attempts to deny that this is a logically fallacious "prove a negative" argument have been typically FD-quirky - the latest and probably most memorable was "oh its not an argument, merely an observation" [LOL]. Not to mention your laughable attempts to extract yourself from the very logic that your entire argument is based on, as presented in the OP - with the face-palming contention that its not really logic. That somehow the suspiciously deductive sounding "quran says x so muslims can't do y, therefore muslims must do z" - isn't an attempt at logic at all, rather its merely "what [all] muslims do" - with an explanation that just coincidentally happens to have a remarkable resemblence to attempted logic. By the way, are you still sticking to that claim? The claim that every single muslim around the globe inextricably do something for no logical reason - yet despite the completely lack of logic behind their universal single-mindedness, it is still somehow perfectly predictable? You never did get round to explaining to me how this 'non-logic' works exactly - apart from the inexplicable "its just what they do [all 1.5 billion of them to a man, woman and child]".
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« Last Edit: Jun 20th, 2019 at 1:45am by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #409 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 12:59am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Even you acknowledge that your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority. Do you now want me to prove something that we both agree on?


Sorry FD, are you now conceding that you "agree" there is a small minority of muslims who actually don't support genocide?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #410 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 1:11pm
 
Gandalf it occurs to me that if you ever did come across a Muslim who opposes genocide, you would probably denounce them as not a bona fide Muslim faster than me. Your attempts to bluster your way out of this are not a result of trying and failing to find one of your theoretical Muslims. Rather, it stems from a refusal to even try, and you refuse for the same reason that all Muslims support genocide. You would rather put up with me saying that all Muslims support genocide (after all, you get to play the victim card) than find one who opposes genocide and risk it undermining your faith in Muhammad.
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #411 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 1:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 1:11pm:
Gandalf it occurs to me that if you ever did come across a Muslim who opposes genocide, you would probably denounce them as not a bona fide Muslim faster than me. Your attempts to bluster your way out of this are not a result of trying and failing to find one of your theoretical Muslims. Rather, it stems from a refusal to even try, and you refuse for the same reason that all Muslims support genocide. You would rather put up with me saying that all Muslims support genocide (after all, you get to play the victim card) than find one who opposes genocide and risk it undermining your faith in Muhammad.


This is just completely unhinged FD. I literally wouldn't know where to start - so I don't think I'll bother. Is perfecting raving incoherence something you actively strive for? Anyway, feel free to have a go at any of the questions you keep avoiding. I'd just be happy with any of them at this stage to be honest.

Also, when you said...

"Even you acknowledge that your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority. Do you now want me to prove something that we both agree on?"

what exactly do you think we "both agree on"? - Is it that there really is a minority that don't actually support genocide? If so, that would be quite the revelation in light of your thread title - wouldn't you agree?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #412 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 6:25pm
 
Quote:
what exactly do you think we "both agree on"?


That your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority.
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #413 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 7:24pm
 
My theoretical muslims don't support genocide FD - your argument necessarily dictates that no such muslims exist. Not a single one.

Now you are acknowledging that they could indeed exist after all? If so, your thread title is BS no?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #414 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 7:29pm
 
No ACTUAL Muslim dares to criticise or contradict Mohammed.

So your theoretical Muslims do not exist. You are no different in your Islamic doctrines from the rest of the jihadis. You just like to play taqiya games. That's the extent of your theoretical Islam.


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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #415 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 8:07pm
 
Thats a completely different notion to the one that says all muslims support genocide - even if, unfathomably, they don't even believe Muhammad committed genocide.

FD performs some mysterious and incomprehensible voodoo logic to conclude that because gandalf (apparently) still justifies genocide as a general principle, even though he doesn't himself believe Muhammad committed genocide, somehow that means all other genocide-deniers do the same. I begged and begged him to come up with a coherent reason for this other than "because thats what gandalf did", but nothing.

Not even FD can deny the existence of said genocide-denying muslims, which includes muslim scholars who have published papers refuting it. yet still he insists that every one of them must support genocide anyway. Why is this? FD won't say.

Can you think of a reason why, after presenting the logic for why muslims are compelled to support what they believe Muhammad actually did, why on earth would you then think its somehow logically consistent to assume that muslims are compelled to support what Muhammad didn't do? Do you have an explanation that actually considers what these muslims think - as opposed to merely parrotting inanely "because... gandalf"?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #416 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 7:24pm:
My theoretical muslims don't support genocide FD - your argument necessarily dictates that no such muslims exist. Not a single one.

Now you are acknowledging that they could indeed exist after all? If so, your thread title is BS no?


We both agree that they are at best a minority Gandalf. The reason I bring this up, seeing as you have forgotten, is because you demanded I prove that the ones who support genocide are a majority. But you already accept that. You are asking me to prove something we both agree on.

Not sure why this is so complicated.

Quote:
Thats a completely different notion to the one that says all muslims support genocide - even if, unfathomably, they don't even believe Muhammad committed genocide.


Why is it unfathomable? You deny the genocide at the same time as supporting it. You went to some length to justify this position. Can you not fathom your own BS?

Quote:
FD performs some mysterious and incomprehensible voodoo logic to conclude that because gandalf (apparently) still justifies genocide as a general principle, even though he doesn't himself believe Muhammad committed genocide, somehow that means all other genocide-deniers do the same.


This is your strawman Gandalf. I have asked you repeatedly to stop lying.

Quote:
I begged and begged him to come up with a coherent reason for this other than "because thats what gandalf did", but nothing.


Keep begging Gandalf, it won't make any difference.

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #417 - Jun 20th, 2019 at 10:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
We both agree that they are at best a minority Gandalf. The reason I bring this up, seeing as you have forgotten, is because you demanded I prove that the ones who support genocide are a majority. But you already accept that. You are asking me to prove something we both agree on.

Not sure why this is so complicated.


Its complicated by the fact that you are literally directly contradicting your own BS in the OP. Do you not comprehend that? Or did you actually mean to say "Most muslims support genocide" in the thread title?

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Why is it unfathomable? You deny the genocide at the same time as supporting it. You went to some length to justify this position. Can you not fathom your own BS?


What is unfathomable is a) why my personal thoughts on this entirely non-religious matter somehow applies to every other muslim who denies the genocide - without even giving them the courtesy to come up with their own reasoning and b) the fact that my reasoning for "supporting" the hypothetical concept of mass execution for that specific crime is *ENTIRELY* separate from my Islamic religious beliefs, and was argued by me on entirely secular/non-religious grounds. The fact that I don't even believe Muhammad went through with it - and conceivably refused to because he was morally opposed to such an act because of his religion - demonstrates that my 'support' for it is in spite of my religious beliefs, not because of it.

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Quote:
FD performs some mysterious and incomprehensible voodoo logic to conclude that because gandalf (apparently) still justifies genocide as a general principle, even though he doesn't himself believe Muhammad committed genocide, somehow that means all other genocide-deniers do the same.


This is your strawman Gandalf. I have asked you repeatedly to stop lying.


You literally just did it again FD. Here I'll even quote you again:

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Why is it unfathomable? You deny the genocide at the same time as supporting it. You went to some length to justify this position.


- keeping in mind this quote was a direct response to why FD's only answer for why genocide deniers still support genocide is "because....gandalf". Here we have exactly that - yet another "because...gandalf" response, straight from the horses mouth.

Rather than hysterically screeching 'liar' like a broken record every time I point out the bleeding obvious, how about you have a go at actually justifying why referring to my alleged justification of genocide is relevant to your insistence that other, non-gandalf muslims who deny Muhammad's genocide must also support genocide? Is that too much to ask FD?

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Quote:
I begged and begged him to come up with a coherent reason for this other than "because thats what gandalf did", but nothing.


Keep begging Gandalf, it won't make any difference.


I agree. 26 pages, and you have refused to come up with any argument about why genocide deniers must still support genocide thats not "because... gandalf", so I guess there's no reason to think the next 26 pages would be any different.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #418 - Jun 21st, 2019 at 1:55am
 
G, you do realise FD's little quip about genocide is designed to get your knickers in a knot, don't you? He doesn't care if it's true. FD's just having a good old giggle.

You'll notice he hasn't brought up that Jew Moh tortured for his gold for a while, right?

Now why is that, FD? Cat got your tongue?
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #419 - Jun 21st, 2019 at 4:21am
 
The execution of some members of the Banu Qurayza does not count as genocide. The punishment by execution was not ordered by Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). It was taken from the book of the Jews as is just. Deuteronomy 20:12-14 reads:

"But if the city makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you."

Wouldn't this fit well to the thread about whether the bible is more violent than the Quran or not? Does it make you more or less comfortable than Surah at-tawba?
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