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All Muslims support genocide (Read 58136 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #300 - May 29th, 2019 at 9:45am
 
As I thought FD - your 'answer' is to project what I allegedly think on to other muslims. We all have one big hive mind, no individual agency. Pathetic.

This is actually worse than not addressing it.
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #301 - May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:45am:
As I thought FD - your 'answer' is to project what I allegedly think on to other muslims. We all have one big hive mind, no individual agency. Pathetic.

This is actually worse than not addressing it.


My answer was to highlight yet another logical fallacy on your part. Denying genocide is not the same as opposing genocide. I doubt you would claim that a Nazi who goes round denying the holocaust opposes genocide, and you are a convenient example that the same applies to Muslims.

But thanks for giving up the pretense that I haven't responded.

Gandalf you are going to extraordinary lengths to establish some kind of theoretical possibility that Muslims can oppose genocide. But you have not provided one single example. It is a blatant double standard. You demand I do the impossible by proving a negative, and insert a mind boggling logical error that failure to do so leads to the conclusion that I am wrong. But when you fail to provide any evidence at all for something you claim exists, the standard does not apply.

Or are you not actually claiming that Muslims exist who oppose genocide? Are you trying to counter my argument with the mere theoretical possibility that they could exist?
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #302 - May 29th, 2019 at 11:19am
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am:
Denying genocide is not the same as opposing genocide.


Quite right FD. Yet from that you come up with something even more ridiculous - that "denying" therefore must equal "supporting".

Also I'm not necessarily talking about muslims who deny the massacre. My reference is to a particular strand of belief in Islam that undeniably (least by you) exists, that rejects the idea that muslims are obligated to "support" everything the prophet did in his life. They believe either that the Quranic verse that Muhammad is a 'good example' refers only to his role as passing on the message of the Quran, or that it refers only to his contemporaries, and not all of mankind.

Presuming you accept the existence of such muslims (you never said otherwise), you have never addressed the fact that this, at a stroke, dismantles your entire logic about why muslims must support genocide - because they reject the assumptions that make your logic. Simply pointing to me and what I allegedly believe as somehow 'proof' that such muslims still support genocide is frankly laughable on so many levels - not least because of the offensive notion that all muslims who are not me have no agency to think for themselves.

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am:
Gandalf you are going to extraordinary lengths to establish some kind of theoretical possibility that Muslims can oppose genocide.


Whereas you tried to establish some theoretical possibility that all muslims do support genocide - and presented it as fact.

When presented with that, my only task is to establish the theoretical flaw in that. Which I have, by destroying the assumptions that makes up your logic. Your only counter to that is to point at a single muslim and say "look what he thinks!" Its beyond pathetic.

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am:
You demand I do the impossible by proving a negative, and insert a mind boggling logical error that failure to do so leads to the conclusion that I am wrong. But when you fail to provide any evidence at all for something you claim exists, the standard does not apply.


Amazing you still don't get it. You were wrong by default the moment you came out and stated as fact that all muslims support genocide. You were still wrong when you thought all you needed to support that was a bit of deductive reasoning (that has proven to be flawed) as well as a single anecdote of one muslim's alleged beliefs. You were still wrong when you lied by trying to deny it was a statement of fact and all along were open to the possibility you were wrong (and then flatly rejecting it was wrong immediately after!). And finally you were still wrong when you came up with the idiotic idea that it is up to me to disprove your completely baseless claim, by coming up with an example of my own.

All you had to do to avoid all this was simply say what we both know you meant all along: that it is logical that muslims support genocide - not necessarily that they all do in reality.

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #303 - May 29th, 2019 at 11:33am
 
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Quite right FD. Yet from that you come up with something even more ridiculous - that "denying" therefore must equal "supporting".


Can you quote me?
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #304 - May 29th, 2019 at 12:07pm
 
OK FD, then how exactly were you "addressing" my point that muslims exist that don't hold the assumptions you say they do in the OP?
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #305 - May 29th, 2019 at 12:19pm
 
So FD, I think we can establish that your only response to me pointing out that not all muslims feel beholden to support all Muhammad's actions - including genocide is "hey look at gandalf!"

That is literally the response you chose to quote me today.

The logic of such a response is undeniable:

"no muslim in the world could possibly think x, because gandalf, a single muslim, definitely doesn't think x"

So can you explain to me again, how exactly that is not "your usual verbling of such muslims and insisting that they don't believe what they say they believe, and  in fact they believe what FD deems them fit to believe. (aka 'mindless collective')."?

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #306 - May 29th, 2019 at 1:31pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
OK FD, then how exactly were you "addressing" my point that muslims exist that don't hold the assumptions you say they do in the OP?


I did not claim that no Muslims deny particular genocides. My claim is that all Muslims support genocide. As you demonstrate, these are not the same thing.

Quote:
So FD, I think we can establish that your only response to me pointing out that not all muslims feel beholden to support all Muhammad's actions - including genocide is "hey look at gandalf!"


....still blustering away, unable to provide a single example of his theoretical Muslim.

Quote:
That is literally the response you chose to quote me today.

The logic of such a response is undeniable:

"no muslim in the world could possibly think x, because gandalf, a single muslim, definitely doesn't think x"


I have no idea what you are ranting about here Gandalf. Can you quote what I "literally" said?

Quote:
So can you explain to me again, how exactly that is not "your usual verbling of such muslims and insisting that they don't believe what they say they believe, and  in fact they believe what FD deems them fit to believe. (aka 'mindless collective')."?


Sure. I did not call them a mindless collective. You used this term to describe the victims of Muhammad's genocide. I can quote you if you'd like. You are also the one who argued that Muslims do not really believe what they say they believe, in response to the Pew surveys.

Do you need me to quote myself not saying the things I have not said?
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #307 - May 29th, 2019 at 3:43pm
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:31pm:
I did not claim that no Muslims deny particular genocides. My claim is that all Muslims support genocide. As you demonstrate, these are not the same thing.


You are still not addressing the point.

I have repeatedly explained to you how the assumptions you express in the OP do not apply to all muslims. Muslims who reject the idea that being told Muhammad is a 'good example' means supporting his every move and action as a flawed human. You have been given ample opportunity to dispute the existence of such muslims, but you haven't. You have also singularly failed to refute the logic that such muslims are not beholden to the logical assumptions you ascribe to them in the OP. Instead you 'address it' by ranting on about how I've found a way to both deny genocide and support it - presumably thinking this is somehow relevant to how all those muslims think. If this is not insinuating that other muslims must think the same as me (without having a clue what they actually think), then your reference to me is completely irrelevant.

So, FD you are either applying the mindless collective argument, or you are not saying anything at all coherent. Which is it?
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #308 - May 29th, 2019 at 6:35pm
 
Quote:
You are still not addressing the point.


I am addressing the point that you made repeatedly, that I responded to repeatedly, and which you claim I did not respond to.

Quote:
I have repeatedly explained to you how the assumptions you express in the OP do not apply to all muslims. Muslims who reject the idea that being told Muhammad is a 'good example' means supporting his every move and action as a flawed human.


You have not given an example of a Muslim willing to criticise Muhammad.

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You have been given ample opportunity to dispute the existence of such muslims, but you haven't.


Are you demanding I prove a negative again Gandalf? They are your theoretical Muslims. There is no onus on me to disprove the existence of every kind of theoretical Muslim you can conjure up.

Quote:
Instead you 'address it' by ranting on about how I've found a way to both deny genocide and support it - presumably thinking this is somehow relevant to how all those muslims think.


It is relevant to the point you actually made.
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #309 - May 29th, 2019 at 7:27pm
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 6:35pm:
I am addressing the point that you made repeatedly


"addressing" it in a way that is completely irrelevant and nonsensical is, in the most absurd way, 'addressing it' I suppose. I'll grant you that.

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 6:35pm:
Are you demanding I prove a negative again Gandalf? They are your theoretical Muslims. There is no onus on me to disprove the existence of every kind of theoretical Muslim you can conjure up


FD you are the only one conjuring up 'theoretical muslims'. You did that the moment you imagined what muslims think without a shred of actual evidence of them thinking it. Apart from your fantasies about what I said and think, you actually haven't come up with a single muslim supporting genocide. When you can't come up with anything except the most flawed logical leaps to assert the way 1.5 billion muslims think, it is not incumbent upon me to 'disprove' that by producing muslims who think differently. As I keep saying - such an idiotic claim without a shred of evidence is wrong by default. And of course it would be a pointless exercise anyway - if I quoted a muslim denouncing genocide, you would simply get to work on them with your idiotic rhetorical questions and twist their words to say the exact opposite of what they say. You know, your usual method. In any case, it misses the point - as I keep telling you. Your only argument is logical leaps + "ooh look what gandalf (didn't) say!" I don't need to prove to you what is already wrong by default - all that is required is to challenge the attempt at deductive reasoning that is the sole basis for the claim. And on that count, you haven't even begun to answer my challenge - apart from the worse than inane "cause gandalf said it!!".
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #310 - May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm
 
Quote:
"addressing" it in a way that is completely irrelevant and nonsensical is, in the most absurd way, 'addressing it' I suppose. I'll grant you that.


Your point was irrelevant. Denying genocide is not the same thing as opposing it.

Quote:
FD you are the only one conjuring up 'theoretical muslims'.


You are real. You support genocide. Abu was real. He supports genocide. Same with Falah. And the others.

All you have in response is imaginary Muslims.

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Apart from your fantasies about what I said and think, you actually haven't come up with a single muslim supporting genocide.


You do support genocide Gandalf. I have proof.

Quote:
And of course it would be a pointless exercise anyway - if I quoted a muslim denouncing genocide, you would simply get to work on them with your idiotic rhetorical questions and twist their words to say the exact opposite of what they say.


You are projecting again Gandalf. You are the one who said in response to the Pew surveys that the Muslims do not really mean what they say they mean.

Quote:
Your only argument is logical leaps + "ooh look what gandalf (didn't) say!"


I had to bump this thread because of you constantly lying about what my argument is. Even that was not enough.
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #311 - May 30th, 2019 at 10:03am
 
freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm:
our point was irrelevant. Denying genocide is not the same thing as opposing it.


And my point wasn't even about denying genocide. Quite the opposite actually. I guess that explains your bizarre incredulity that you were not addressing my point. lol

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm:
You are projecting again Gandalf. You are the one who said in response to the Pew surveys that the Muslims do not really mean what they say they mean.


No I didn't, and we've been through this before. I stated clearly they meant what they said, but opined that in a different context they may think differently. Big difference.

You are the only one running with the line that when a muslim says one thing, they must mean something else. Your entire case depends on the idea that your ham-fisted attempt at "logic" must trump anything any muslim would say. Why else would an argument that says "all muslims support genocide" start not with actually demonstrating what "all muslims" support, but some attempt at deductive reasoning based on what you assume muslims must think? Thats why any muslim I might present that swears they don't support genocide would be no obstacle whatsoever to your argument - as you would simply subject them to the rhetorical question routine, starting with: "doesn't he consider Muhammad the best example"?

If your assumptions that forms your attempted logic in the OP are correct, then you would of course be correct in your claim - muslims have to support genocide, whether they like it or not. If they stop supporting genocide, I guess they stop being muslim. So thats why its completely pointless quoting a muslim saying they denounce genocide - it would be wrong - even if they didn't realise it. And thats why your argument necessarily involves asserting that muslims who don't support genocide don't really mean what they say. They are bound by a singular, inflexible, externally enforced thought process, with no agency to think for themselves. Dare I say it, a mindless collective.

Therefore the only useful way of refuting your argument is to refute the logic that forms it. And by recognising a strand within Islam where it is not necessary to revere or support Muhammad's every move and action (eg the 'Quran only' strand), where it is theoretically possible to even denounce actions committed by the prophet, your logic collapses.

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm:
I had to bump this thread because of you constantly lying about what my argument is.


If you are confused by what your own argument consists of FD, I suggest your 'go-to' point of reference be your own OP. That is entirely logical leaps + "ooh look what gandalf (didn't) say!"
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #312 - May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm
 
Quote:
And my point wasn't even about denying genocide.


And yet, that is what you said. Is that why you kept insisting I never responded, because I was only responding to what you said, not to something else that you meant?

Quote:
I guess that explains your bizarre incredulity that you were not addressing my point. lol


How is it bizarre to respond to what you said? Do you need me to do another quote bomb?

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No I didn't, and we've been through this before. I stated clearly they meant what they said, but opined that in a different context they may think differently. Big difference.


You said they would change their mind if they actually came close to getting what they want. In other words, they did not mean what they said. If anyone else claimed Muslims would change their mind about Islam to what they think Islam really is. you would go into your hysterical mindless collective defence. But you do the same thing without blinking.

Quote:
Thats why any muslim I might present that swears they don't support genocide would be no obstacle whatsoever to your argument - as you would simply subject them to the rhetorical question routine, starting with: "doesn't he consider Muhammad the best example"?


And yet you presented an example, and that is not how I responded.

Quote:
If your assumptions that forms your attempted logic in the OP are correct, then you would of course be correct in your claim - muslims have to support genocide, whether they like it or not.


That is not my claim Gandalf. That is your strawman.

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Therefore the only useful way of refuting your argument is to refute the logic that forms it.


Or you could give us an example of a Muslim who does not support genocide. But that is not an option for you, is it Gandalf?
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #313 - May 30th, 2019 at 2:31pm
 
There is not one muslim alive who will dare to question and denounce the many evil verses in the qur'an which cause and motivate rape torture and mass murder of the enemies of allah.

If they revere the cause of such things as being the infallible unchangeable words of allah, they then by definition support the engendered depravities.
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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #314 - May 30th, 2019 at 2:37pm
 
freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
And yet, that is what you said.


No it wasn't. When I point to the belief that the "Muhammad good example" verse doesn't require 'supporting' Muhammad's every move and action - either because they consider it only applies to his role as revealer of the Quran, or that it only applies to his immediate contemporaries - how is that anything to do with denying the genocide? Quite the opposite - my point was they can accept the genocide happened, but not feel any obligation to support it - and could even condemn it. It is this point you have never addressed.

freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
You said they would change their mind if they actually came close to getting what they want. In other words, they did not mean what they said.


Rubbish. Changing your mind is not meaning something different to what you said. Saying what you don't mean means you are lying, and changing your mind is obviously not lying. I can't believe I have to point that out to you.

freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
Or you could give us an example of a Muslim who does not support genocide. But that is not an option for you, is it Gandalf?


Thats funny, you just said I did provide an example. Are you confused?

freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
Quote:
If your assumptions that forms your attempted logic in the OP are correct, then you would of course be correct in your claim - muslims have to support genocide, whether they like it or not.


That is not my claim Gandalf. That is your strawman.


So muslims aren't compelled to support genocide because of the verse in the Quran you insist they must obey? Funny FD, your OP says otherwise.
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