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Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!! (Read 6401 times)
greggerypeccary
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #30 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:46am
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:34am:
cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am:
There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats.



any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time.......

its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in....


Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given.

I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc..

Give preference to the voter and not the party.


Abolish partisan how to vote cards.

Instead, have AEC how to vote cards.

...
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Bam
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #31 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:46am
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:34am:
cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am:
There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats.



any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time.......

its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in....


Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given.

I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc..

Give preference to the voter and not the party.

Abolish ticket voting. Numbering above the line is equivalent to numbering sequentially below the line. Problem solved.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Bam
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #32 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:52am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:46am:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:34am:
cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am:
There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats.



any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time.......

its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in....


Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given.

I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc..

Give preference to the voter and not the party.


Abolish partisan how to vote cards.

Instead, have AEC how to vote cards.

https://i.imgflip.com/2nlh5q.jpg

Abolishing how-to-vote cards from parties should also be considered. Preferences should be in the hands of the voters.

If that's done, we should consider introducing some form of Robson rotation for the ballot papers, so being placed top or bottom on a ballot paper does not confer any advantage.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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matty
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #33 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:53am
 
Bam wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:14am:
matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:53am:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 4:56pm:
matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:12am:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am:
No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties.

Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police.


Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past?

Link please ... show a recent election where One Nation has received nearly a full quota of votes (0.75 or more) but no representatives were elected on preferences due to ticket voting specifically.


2011 NSW state election.

1. No links.
2. NSW did not have ticket voting for the upper house in 2011.
3. One Nation did not contest the 2011 NSW State election. The "Independent Hanson" faction only got 2.41% of the vote, or 0.53 of a quota - nowhere near a quota (4.55%).

Next time, POST LINKS.


True, Pauline did run as an independent.

However, she did receive just over half a quota whereas the Nats and the Greens candidates “elected” in the last two spots received far fewer.

Didn’t you have a go at me for making an “arbitrary cutoff” for lower house seats at 42%, and now you do the same here.
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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!
 
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matty
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #34 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:54am
 
Bam wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:24am:
matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:56am:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 5:08pm:
On this point, I say that group ticket voting should be abolished. (snip)

It has been abolished for federal elections but it should be abolished for state elections as well.


On this point though, there is an alternative whereby you can decide EXACTLY where your preferences go: vote below the line, and list every box so that you can order your favourite to least favourite precisely. I have always done that. Next election will be no different, as I am able to put the hypocritical, sanctimonious, white, misandrist anti-Australian Greens dead last.

You can vote as you please.

However, we shouldn't have a voting system that encourages malappropriation of votes or the rigging of elections. We must abolish ticket voting in Victoria and Western Australia because it is a farce. Numbering boxes above the line should be equivalent to numbering below the line in sequence.


But again you didn’t address why not just do what I said: go to the effort of voting below the line? It’s simple. I always do it. That way you can decide exactly and precisely where all your preferences go.
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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!
 
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #35 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:57am
 
Bam wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:52am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:46am:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:34am:
cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am:
There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats.



any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time.......

its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in....


Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given.

I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc..

Give preference to the voter and not the party.


Abolish partisan how to vote cards.

Instead, have AEC how to vote cards.

https://i.imgflip.com/2nlh5q.jpg

Abolishing how-to-vote cards from parties should also be considered.


Absolutely.

No how to vote cards from candidates. None, whatsoever.

Only cards from the AEC, which give general instructions (for those too stupid to know how to vote).

Personally, I think that if you don't know how to cast a legal vote by the time you get to the polling place, you've forfeited your right to participate.

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Bam
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #36 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 2:53pm
 
matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:53am:
Bam wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:14am:
matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:53am:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 4:56pm:
matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:12am:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am:
No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties.

Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police.


Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past?

Link please ... show a recent election where One Nation has received nearly a full quota of votes (0.75 or more) but no representatives were elected on preferences due to ticket voting specifically.


2011 NSW state election.

1. No links.
2. NSW did not have ticket voting for the upper house in 2011.
3. One Nation did not contest the 2011 NSW State election. The "Independent Hanson" faction only got 2.41% of the vote, or 0.53 of a quota - nowhere near a quota (4.55%).

Next time, POST LINKS.


True, Pauline did run as an independent.

However, she did receive just over half a quota whereas the Nats and the Greens candidates “elected” in the last two spots received far fewer.

Didn’t you have a go at me for making an “arbitrary cutoff” for lower house seats at 42%, and now you do the same here.

Your point is irrelevant because NSW did not use ticket voting at the 2011 NSW state election. I asked about ticket voting specifically.

The real problem here is likely to be the use of how-to-vote cards to direct preferences, a practice I also do not like. Democracy should be in the hands of voters, not political parties. Ticket voting violates this principle, and how-to-vote cards also do, to a lesser degree.

As for using 75% as a cutoff, that's intended to make it easier for you to provide examples. I could have used a 90% cutoff. That's the percentage of the quota that the Liberal party has provisionally reached in at least one of the eight regions of the Victorian state election where they did not gain enough additional votes on preferences from ticket voting to get an additional member elected. They're left stranded as the last unelected candidate standing.

Here's how bad it is, as it stands right now:

Northern Metropolitan: Liberal quota 0.9728 - elected as last candidate by 112 votes.
Northern Victoria: Liberal/National quota 1.9390 - one Liberal elected.
Western Victoria: Liberal/National quota 1.8329 - one Liberal elected.

The ticket voting has clearly disadvantaged the Liberals.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Bam
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #37 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 3:12pm
 
matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:54am:
Bam wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:24am:
matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:56am:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 5:08pm:
On this point, I say that group ticket voting should be abolished. (snip)

It has been abolished for federal elections but it should be abolished for state elections as well.


On this point though, there is an alternative whereby you can decide EXACTLY where your preferences go: vote below the line, and list every box so that you can order your favourite to least favourite precisely. I have always done that. Next election will be no different, as I am able to put the hypocritical, sanctimonious, white, misandrist anti-Australian Greens dead last.

You can vote as you please.

However, we shouldn't have a voting system that encourages malappropriation of votes or the rigging of elections. We must abolish ticket voting in Victoria and Western Australia because it is a farce. Numbering boxes above the line should be equivalent to numbering below the line in sequence.


But again you didn’t address why not just do what I said: go to the effort of voting below the line? It’s simple. I always do it. That way you can decide exactly and precisely where all your preferences go.

I don't need to. Do you really think I'm going to succeed in convincing three million lazy voters to do the right thing when it's far easier for me to see my local MP and try to convince them to change the system? I only have to convince one person, not three million, and after the farcical result of the Legislative Council and the unrepresentative swill that's been elected, I doubt they would need much convincing.

And for the record I did vote below the line. All of the boxes.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: Great news: Greens lose 4/5 seats in Vic!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #38 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:33am
 
...
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The 2025 election could be a shocker.
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