After 9/11 when the US demanded the taliban hand over bin Laden, the taliban reasonably asked for evidence of his guilt, and then offered to extradite bin Laden to a third country for trial.

Blind Freddy would have known that working with the only outfit in Afghanistan that resembled a functioning government in order to dismantle Al Qaeda and bring bin Laden to justice was the only viable way forward. Not least of all for the security interests of US citizens.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 2:41pm:


Do all Muslims prefer puppet regimes to democracy?

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 9:56pm:


Like Donald Trump's administration?

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:35pm:


FleaDriver must have a flea in his ear.

I could never figure out those videos of US marines assigned to protecting opium / Poppy fields.

I wanted to reply to FD, unfortunately I have no idea what he's talking about.

Is he talking about Karzai et al?

FleaDriver just quotes miscellaneous stuff off his propaganda scripts.

His policy is that when he doesn't have any valid arguments he publishes some nonsense to create confusion and diversion.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 6:02am:


That's not my experience working with the homeless, dear. Most make the most of help and use it on the "narrow path to success", which is different for everyone.

Some don't, but I've found they're in the minority.

Afghans aren't in the mental state to work with occupying forces. I'm not sure why that's a challenging concept. Work with Uncle, and the Taliban take you in the middle of the night.

I believe you call this "sovereignty".

Whack a flea in FleaDriver's ear and he pisses off to demand a new script from his handler.

Quote:


Do you disagree with anything I posted Gandalf?

What makes you think they had no transition plan?

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2018 at 12:43pm:


I guess the whole collapsing into an anarchic heap while the US transferred troops and resources into Iraq - was a bit of a giveaway.

You know, its almost as if foregoing the whole overthrow and invasion - and avoiding 10s of thousands dead-just-to-hand-it-all-back-to-the-taliban thing would have been a more constructive route.

The problem was that almost everyone believed the propaganda about Muslims - Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians, Saudis, Pakis - being just like everyone else, wanting exactly what everyone else wanted, if only they could have free and fair elections.
The evidence shows that what they want is what they have always wanted and done - tribal war, feuds, fractiousness and endless sectarian strife. That crap is still peddled today as 'the vast majority of Muslims just want to take the kids to school and get on with life'.

Quote:


Earth to Gandalf: it was a failed state, with no recognised governing authority and with factions within it openly declaring war against the most powerful nation on earth, and doing their best to get it started. It could not have been less stable. Other than being very Muslim and very backwards, what could possibly attract you to the idea of just waiting to see what they did next?

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You attempted to argue that Iraq was somehow evidence that the US did not have a transition plan in Afghanistant. I asked you to explain that logic. Would you like to have another go?

Quote:


So you think they got lost and turned up in Afghanistan by mistake?

Quote:


So despite the obvious transition plan, which they are still following through with, your only argument is that they had no plan because you didn't think they wanted to commit the resources to one?

The US has not won a war or won a peace since WW2.

issuevoter wrote on Dec 9^th, 2018 at 11:23pm:


Fun fact - the taliban instituted the death penalty for 'little-boy rooting' (Bacha bazi), and largely stamped out the practice under their rule:

Quote:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy/

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 10^th, 2018 at 7:59am:


The highlight is the reality that nothing has changed. But trust you to defend the Taliban.

issuevoter wrote on Dec 11^th, 2018 at 6:45am:


Your claim was that the taliban themselves were "little boy rooters". I have clearly demonstrated that you had no idea what you were talking about.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11^th, 2018 at 9:00am:


What you have clearly demonstrated is that you trust the Taliban; a bunch of misogynistic, sadistic, murdering thugs. Oh, no, none of them would root a little boy. And why do you sympathize with them? Because they are Mooslims; God's chosen people. You arrogant prick.

issuevoter wrote on Dec 11^th, 2018 at 12:54pm:


logical fallacy: pointing out that you are wrong to claim that 'Bacha Bazi' was practiced by the taliban doesn't equal support for the taliban.

Quote:




you shower yourself with glory issue, you really do. Taking the moral high ground once again.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11^th, 2018 at 1:02pm:


Gandalf, you were attempting to argue that whether they were recognised by other nations as the government is irrelevant to whether they were a failed state. Excuse for trying to avoid a pile of negatives, but here goes:

Can you give any examples of "non-failed" states whose government was not recognised by all but two other nations?

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Can you be more specific?

Quote:


Are you suggesting that Afghanistan was not a failed state prior to the Taliban seizing control of parts of it? Or that other countries did recognise the government which the Taliban displaced as being legitimate?

freediver wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:


I'm suggesting this bizarre inquiry into how many countries recognised the taliban as a legitimate government of Afghanistan - is entirely irrelevant to the actual point I was making - vis how effectively their actual control of the country was.

But I don't blame you grasping at this semantic exercise given how well your previous attempts to portray the taliban as ineffective and having little control went down - by posting maps showing the taliban having almost complete control of the country during their rule, as well as quoting doctors saying how brutally effective the taliban were at controlling the population.

freediver wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:34pm:


No. What does that even mean? Your only criteria seems to be how many countries recognised the ruling authority as legitimate. How does that make it a failed state? It doesn't, obviously. See how you are still playing with semantics - even when you promise to put them aside?

freediver wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:34pm:


Lordy where to start 

firstly, they did not "spring up" during Taliban rule, they were already there - invited in actually by the previous regime that was many times worse in terms of providing stability than the Taliban. The truth is the Taliban and AQ had a marriage of convenience - as AQ provided essential resources - money and manpower - in their war against the northern alliance. Yes, the Taliban were in a precarious position financially, but this doesn't make their authority over society fundamentally 'unstable', let alone the definition of a 'failed state'. All the evidence, including the accounts of the doctors that you yourself produced, points to them achieving quite significant stability and security for the people - albeit quite brutal. By 1996 the front lines had stabilised, with the Taliban consolidating control over around 80-90% of the country, and remained stable right until the US overthrew them in late 2001. And within that area of control, the Taliban authority was undisputed. These are the things you consider when asking whether it was a failed state - not how many countries recognised tie ruling authority as legitimate.

Secondly, terrorists establishing themselves in a country and launching terrorist attacks - gosh who ever heard of that!! It happens everywhere - rich countries, poor countries, most of them are not "failed states". Is India a "failed state" because it owns pieces of territory that are de-facto controlled by militants which launch terrorist attacks? Obviously not. Ditto to Pakistan. Is the Ukraine a "failed state" because it has an out-of-control area of insurgents waging a separatist war? Obviously not.

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2018 at 5:03pm:


Again, how does it make it a "failed state"? - and by that I mean the definition that we actually use on planet earth - ie:

A failed state is a political body that has disintegrated to a point where basic conditions and responsibilities of a sovereign government no longer function properly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2018 at 5:03pm:


Good point FD, the taliban consolidated their power even more after 1996 - right up until the US bombed them out of existence.

Well at least you're no longer arguing that the taliban was a 'failed state' because of what was happening in Afghanistan when it didn't even exist!

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2018 at 5:03pm:


I'm not spoonfeeding you basic facts of history again FD. If you can't even be bothered to understand the most basic facts of a history debate, then I suggest you don't waste our time by trying to engage in that debate.

Quote:


Would you say that preventing incursions by foreign governments is a basic responsibility? What about terrorist organisations having free reign to pick fights with whoever they want? What about having zero ability to represent the state yousupposedly govern?

Quote:


Which regime were you referring to Gandalf? Am I supposed to guess?

Also, you keep dodging the point about how being in "power" for about 5 years counts as stable. Are you having difficulty understanding the question?

The more posts I read from Gandalf the more he sounds like a Taliban member.

It must have caused quite a bit of chagrin among the Mullah "Government" back in Kabul, when they found out that some of the bombers over their front line with the Northern Alliance, were flown by American women. Of course that would not have been nearly so disturbing for them, as it would have been for the rag-heads running down the road with their arses on fire, and shouting Allah Akabaa!!!

Consider this simple question Gandalf:

Did the Taliban sanction Al Quaida's declaration of war and repeated attacks on the US?

If the answer is yes, then they had already declared war and attacked by proxy, so the US had no reason to negotiate with them.

If the answer is no, then they were not in effective control of the failed state and the US had no reason to negotiate with them.

Quote:


Are you deliberately misrepresenting my argument, or can you just not see how Al Quaida declaring war on and attacking a powerful foreign country is relevant to the Taliban's authority and ability to provide security?

Or is it just that your opening position on everything is that it is America's fault?

Quote:


You said they were "more stable" then proceeded on the basis that time has nothing to do with stability. Would you make the same argument about stable rule if they only ruled for two days?

Gandalf, you are basically trying the "Nazis made the trains run on time" argument with the Taliban, in order to justify your preference for the Taliban's brutal Islamofascism over establishing democracy.

Only problem is, the Taliban did not make the trains run on time. They chopped them up for firewood and broke all the clocks. They entered into a "marriage of convenience" (your own words) with a terrorist organisation that set it's own foreign policy agenda, which involved declaring war on and repeatedly attacking the most powerful nation on earth, bringing about the Taliban's destruction within 5 years of the Taliban first gaining control of half of the country - which you somehow turn into effective and stable rule, as well as providing "basic security".

Would you make the same argument about stable rule if they only ruled for two days? How do you justify your apparent position that how long you are in power for is irrelevant to whether you provide stable rule?

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2018 at 7:57pm:


Well said. But that will not bother him, he's a Muzlim.

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2018 at 7:57pm:


No I'm not, but you are definitely trying the tired old "not supporting bombing a country into smitherenes and ushering in untold years of chaos and instability = prefering brutal Islamofascism over establishing democracy" argument. Its a shame, but not really surprising given how well your other attempts at argument went down - like quoting doctors attesting to how effective taliban control was as somehow proof of a failed state.

I've made a few points, none of which relates remotely to saying the taliban were awesome and definitely preferable to establishing democracy. These include pointing out that you really couldn't imagine a worse outcome for both Afghanistan and western security - than the course that the US took in 2001. I pointed out that a viable diplomatic alternative to slaughtering Afghanis and allowing bin Laden to get away - was available to the US, which almost certainly would have been more effective in terms of meting out justice on the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks. I refuted your baseless and illogical argument that the US couldn't possibly have worked with the taliban because they were somehow a failed state - a claim for which you no valid or logical evidence to support.

freediver wrote on Dec 19^th, 2018 at 12:27pm:


And you are yet to explain how 5 years of stability can't possibly be 5 years of stability - other than making the nonsensical non-argument that 'its not long enough'. And by the way, 5 years is a little bit more than 2 days - and we are not talking about ruling for 2 days, because the taliban didn't rule for just 2 days. These are incredibly difficult concepts to get your head around, I know, but do try to keep up.

freediver wrote on Dec 19^th, 2018 at 12:27pm:


Ok, I get your point that following a course of action, or not following a course of action as the case may be - that provokes hostile foreign intervention is inherently destabilising for the country. But to make the connection between this and actually not having a properly functioning state is quite illogical and completely nonsensical IMO. If you were consistent you would have to say that Nazi Germany in the 30s was a 'failed state' because it had a foreign policy that made war with the allies (and therefore its eventual destruction) inevitable. And that idea is plainly ridiculous - surely even to you. As you said, the Nazis make the trains run on time.

freediver wrote on Dec 19^th, 2018 at 12:27pm:


This is naivity on stilts. Nothing but regurgitated, mindless US war propaganda.

The taliban may not have been able to hand over Bin Laden by themselves, but they certainly had the ability to cooperate with a US-led international law enforcement team to capture him. And don't give me nonsense about the taliban 'only willing to string the US along'. They were not suicidal like AQ, they could have been bargained with. Yes, of course, bargaining with a fundamentalist Islamist outfit that had harboured even worse fundamentalists who killed thousands of Americans - would leave a bad taste in your mouth-  but you have to decide whether you are interested in actual practical outcomes, or simply claiming the moral high ground while achieving nothing. The US decided the latter, and got the worst imaginable outcome for all involved - except bin Laden.

oh look, good ol' 'never ever' pops in for a visit again.

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2018 at 3:26pm:



What does that have to do with marines protecting opium fields?

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2018 at 3:26pm:


Funny thing, the Americans seemed to lose their faux moral outrage over the taliban's treatment of women when they invited them to the White House early in 2001 to discuss that very pipeline.

If not for 9/11, its probable the Americans would have established diplomatic relations lasting to this day with that regime - something akin to their alliance with the morally reprehensible Saudi regime.

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 21^st, 2018 at 11:32am:


He found it was just easier to install his old oil buddy Hamid Karzai, and rig the elections for him.

Winter, Kabul. From his compound behind the Presidential Palace, Karzai looks out over his once proud city. Where is Gary now? Where are the Americans? The British? The German engineers?

Was it all a dream?

An icy wind blows through the city, whistling. When the sun rises, there will be fog.

The telephone rings, breaking through the darkness.

"Hamid?"

It is Ghani, damn him. He calls anytime. He is now Karzai's president. Once, he was a friend.

"Hamid? The Americans are taking more troops. What to do? It is giving me insomnia already."

"Ah, Ashraf, this is no longer our world. The wind, the fog, this is now our lot, insh'allah."

"But Hamid, we must act! You must do something! Call Gary, call Mr Trump, call anyone!"

"Gary no longer takes my calls, effende, but anyhow, he is gone too. Retired, living in Maine."

"And Trump?"

"Forget it, Ashraf, he's pretty much retired too. Putin, he will talk to. Me? I am yesterday. I am the past. I am no longer on the Fox News."

"But Mother said..."

"Ah. She talks to you? Me also, in my time. She is a goodly spirit."

"She is my only hope! The Americans will no longer help. The Taliban are giving me heart problems already. My blood pressure..."

Health has always been one of Karzai's obsessions, but like all hypochondriacs, he can't bear to listen to the health problems of others.

"Insh'allah, the Angel will guide you, Ashraf. Listen to her. She is always right."

"Ah, Hamid, she tells me to kill - some men with my own bare hands. My conscience..."

"Forget conscience, effende, the Angel speaks the word of God. This is the price we must pay. I also, in my time. Men like us cannot afford a conscience."

Karzai can hear the presidential hubbly bubbly on the other end of the line. Ghani must be onto his first bong of the day. Karzai is on the last bong of the night. Hashish and opium. It is the only thing that holds back the pain of the conscience. Also, it often brings a visit from the Angel, who gives advice. Karzai, after all, is still the president, just not in name. Today, he can relax and let Ashraf settle the blood. It is a part of the job no president likes.

In many ways, Karzai is like the Angel herself, directing Afghanistan from behind the scenes. Karzai's presidential terms expired, he can now rule without accountability. It is a good place to be, but then again, all in Afghanistan know Karzai stands behind the throne.

"Hamid, try Mr Trump again, I know he can help. Maybe there will be a new Gary soon."

"Insh'allah, there are no more Garys, Ashraf. It is the price we must pay. It is - how to say - independence."

"Oh Hamid, listen to who you are talking to. Independence? It's a sad joke. Afghanistan will never be independent. Britain, Russia, America, all. Let the Taliban dream of independence. We are pragmatic fellows."

"This may be, effende, but we must pretend. We are like an actor on the stage - an actor in the play of life. All countries want independence, isn't it. None may have it, not even America. But we pretend, we speak to the crowds, we go on TV. Then, when all is quiet, we listen to the Angel of Darkness, Mother of the Night. This is our lot, insh'allah. It is what we must do. Speak of independence, Ashraf, but act on dependence. It is all we can do."

"Yes, it is so. Can you just try Trump?"

"Okay! I will try again, Ashraf. Insh'allah, I will succeed. But let us wait until the day."

"Ah, Hamid, peace be upon you."

"Now go do your work. You have a meeting with the Pashtun Council today, no?"

"They never help. All they do is complain."

"But we must pretend, Ashraf. Be an actor. Listen and speak the lines I have given you. It is like chess. On their own, no piece can win, and yes, many must be sacrificed. But together - like the fingers in a hand - we may act, fingers that may form a fist or a caress."

Karzai takes a drag on his pipe then blows out its smoke, a long blue dragon of opium and hashish. With it, Karzai let's out a prayer.

"Mother of Darkness, Angel of Death, bring light to our friend Ashraf Ghani, president of all the tribes of Afghanistan! Bring him glory, bring him peace!"

"Blood pressure, Hamid..."

"Bring him health! Lower his blood pressure, insh'allah. Get him on a low cholesterol diet, he is putting on too much weight."

"It is Winter, Hamid. I'm not getting out much."

"Then get out! Go to Florida. It is sunny all year round. Gary gave me a compound there. Finally."

"Really?"

"Really. But it was not cheap. It cost much oil and gas. Still, it is not my oil and gas."

"It belongs to the people of Afghanistan."

"It belongs to God! He who sees all, hears all, owns all. I should go to Florida myself, get some sun."

"This might work, Hamid. Listen, Mr Trump has a palace there. You can buy a ticket and meet with him."

"Maybe. What is this Trump palace?"

"Mar a' Lago. Apparently you can play golf there. You can drive around in these little buggies."

"Well, it would be good to see the retirement compound again... Alright, I will visit this Mar a Lago. I will play some golf, drink cocktails. Insh'allah, I shall meet with Trump himself!"

"As God wills it, Hamid."

"Now go. Meet with the Pashtuns. Tell them to hold tight. Insh'allah, we will bring back America!"

A thin dawn breaks over Kabul. As always, the sun's fog creeps in from the east. Blue-grey, like the smoke from a hubbly bubbly.

Karzai and Trump? What to do? Stay reading, friends, and you will see.

Today's man, president Ashraf Ghani.

Doesn't he look like Karzai?

Karzai also. Isn't it.

Tomorrow the Gyppos.

Ah, Mr President, how many times I have said these words, but not to such a true leader of men.

Insh'allah, we will play golf, isn't it. Do you have a buggy?

Hey, Hamid, here's one of me and the Deep State. You have that over in your country?

"Gary! You got another call!"

"Who is it?"

"What?"

I said, who... Never mind. Here."

Gary is putting together an IKEA cupboard, or trying to. He takes the phone from his mistress in Maine. "Hello?"

"Gary."

"Hamid? How..."

"Do not worry, Gary. We Pashtuns also have central intelligent agents, isn't it".

"Intelligence, Hamid, and I don't doubt that."

Karzai comes straight out with it. "I want to meet Trump."

"Trump? Why? Look, Hamid, you and I aren't young anymore. We went through this years ago. You're not even president anymore."

"I am a leader of my tribe. I..."

"Spare me, Hamid. I'm a leader of nothing. I'm retired. I haven't been in the business for years. I'm out."

"Yes, Gary, but you still know people. Important people. You are - how to say - the Deep State, isn't it."

"Hamid, I was Kabul station chief for a few years. Who do you think I know in the states? You want a waterboard or a drone strike, I can hook it up, but the president? Come on."

"But you were Central Asian station chief. Insh'allah, it was the trickiest post in the CIA, you said. You had Bush's ears, Gary, even his tongue. I saw this. You told me one thing on the phone, and then, Kabesh! I would hear Bush say it on CNN. It was like an echo, a hall of mirrors..."

"That was then, Hamid. It's a different time. Things change."

"Ah, Gary. Here, nothing changes. Here, we have Russia and Pakistan and China and yes, America also. We have 36 official tribes. We have the government, the army, the Taliban, al Qaida, ISI, even Daesh. All of them merge and shift. In our time, we had a Northern Alliance, remember? Then they splinter, they swap sides. There are maybe 6 different Talibans now, I lose track. It upsets my stomach. Nothing changes, Gary, and nothing stays the same. It is our lot here. God willing, it is our fate."

"That's the problem, Hamid, nothing changes. The US is pulling out, I guess they finally woke up to it. You want my advice? Move to Florida. We even got you a compound. Hang up the turban and get out while you can."

"And I am grateful, Gary. Insh'allah, I am blessed, peace be upon us both. But I have friends..."

"We all have friends, Hamid."

"Call the White House. Get me a meeting. Just one."

"It doesn't work like that anymore! You know what this guy does? He watches TV. Some talking head he likes says something, and that becomes the policy. The guy's a germaphobe. He uses a Wet Wipe if he has to shake a hand. He goes through a box of them a day. He's the Howard Hughes of presidents. You've got to play him, and you need money. Then he changes his mind and screws you anyway. It's not easy."

"Ah - ah. TV, money, germs. Germs I can do. I don't know about the rest."

"You can't get to him, Hamid, I'm telling you. He doesn't care about the rest of the world. Angela Merkel tried calling a few months back, and he hung up on her."

"An easy mistake to make - I can't work out these phones either."

"I don't think it was a mistake, Hamid."

"Look, you say he likes TV, yes? What if... what if I could..."

"You can't, Hamid. He doesn't watch the long stuff. No analysis, no BBC. He likes Breakfast TV. Fox & Friends, celebrity chat - light, but political. Nothing foreign."

"Celebrities, you say?"

"You got any of them in Afghanistan?"

"Well, yes, but..."

"They're all Afghani, right? Forget about it, Hamid. You can't get him."

"Money..."

"You've got none of that either - just the dollars we give you. Face it, Hamid, we're old men. We're no longer players."

"Gary, I am coming to America."

"No problem. Come. We'll welcome you. But come as a tourist, not a statesman. Much easier."

"I will call."

Gary hears the dial tone and, in a puff of smoke, Karzai is gone.

Good God, Karzai, after all these years. Sure Gary has contacts, but he's out of the game. No more spying, no more Karzais, Gary is too old for all this.

But deep down, Gary has regrets. Without a doubt, they left Afghanistan a far worse place than they found it. For a time there, Karzai was their only hope. And what if he could get a meeting with Trump? Karzai would run rings around him! Russia? China? Pakistan? No chance. But Karzai?

As for CIA station chiefs, they're never really out of the game. They're always running into each other, usually at funerals.

Karzai, if only in Gary's mind, is not gone. Karzai, like a genie in a lamp, is back.

FD:

Quote:


You're still not making any coherent argument FD. No, a timespan on its own is not relevant to how 'stable' they were (to an extent - 2 days obviously doesn't qualify, and it is simply idiotic to compare it to 5 years). What is relevant, are the actual measures we use for determing how stable society was during that time. And so far, the best evidence we have seen is the doctors you quoted asserting how brutally effective the taliban were at controlling the population. Then there's your maps which clearly shows the taliban consolidating and expanding their control of the country, thus making their rule progressively more stable as time went on. Comparing this rule to the regime that preceded it, where women were routinely being raped, and artillery was deployed literally in the streets to massacre protesters - we undeniably start to understand it as a period of relative stability. And moreover the comparison with the utter chaos that followed the fall of the taliban, is chalk and cheese.

Quote:
 

Obviously they did not have control over AQ and bin Laden - otherwise they would have prevented 9/11, which they knew straight away most probably was the signing of their death warrant. Whether or not they could have followed through on their pledge to extradite bin Laden is debatable, but it doesn't mean they couldn't have provided crucial logistical and political support to an internationally mandated team sent in to capture him. And this course would have been a win-win for all involved - the US would have a much greater chance of capturing bin Laden and dismantling his terror camps, with the double bonus of not being saddled with an entire country to occupy and try and rebuild - while the taliban would get to survive and hopefully, with international pressure and support, work harder to grant human rights to its citizens and democratise the country.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 9:55am:


So you keep saying. Pity you have no evidence to support this - other than to say 'because their actions or non-actions invited foreign intervention' - which as I've explained is no criteria for a failed state.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:


How about your own evidence of doctors attesting to the very effective control they had over their people?

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:


Irrelevant, as I've already explained.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:


freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:


You are simply clueless as to my actual arguments. Get back to me when you've read over them properly.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:


Oh look, good ol' "you don't support bombing a country into smitherenes and propelling it into unprecedented anarchy and bloodshed - therefore you support Islamofascists" - pops up for another visit.

Do you actually ever get tired of this idiotic and vacuous non-argument?

Just for a change, why don't we play "apparently even progressive westerners will go through such mental gymnastics in order to support the most brutal and oppressive western imperialist goernments of modern times"?

That at least would be about 1000 times more accurate.

Ajax wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 10:42am:


Excuse me, Ajax, are you saying we've been in Afghanistan all this time for nothing?

That can't be right. If that was true, FD would agree with G, shurely.

KARZAI KARZAI KARZAI.

The parade trawls down Karl Marx Avenue, the green, red and black banners waving to the crowds. Men in white pyjamas and black waistcoats, women in hijabs, the odd black burqa. A boy at the front of the parade marches and grins, waving the Afghani flag. He follows a slowly-moving SUV with a police light and loudspeaker.

KARZAI KARZAI KARZAI.

The tribal horns sound. At the rear, a man taps away at a snare drum, a base drum and cymbals on his back. Boom, crash, boom. The stray dogs in the alleyways bark relentlessly.

KARZAI KARZAI KARZAI.

Peanut sellers, kebab stands, a man with a sugarcane juice machine. Thousands of paper flyers trampled into the ground, covered in mud, peanut shells, mandarin peels. Karzai's black and white face smiles sympathetically from the mud, his hat and shawl placed relaxed, but firm. Hopefully, the voters will see Karzai's face and press their inked index finger in the box next to his picture at the top of the form.

KARZAI KARZAI KARZAI.

Now, it is quiet. The dawn peeks through the fog. Karzai rests his glasses on the desk and presses his index fingers into his temples.

No more parades for Karzai. Today, the crowds gather for Ghani instead. It is a hard time for Afghanistan, but when was it not?

On his chair at his desk in his compound, the Karzai compound, less than 50 metres from the Presidential Palace in Kabul, the mind of Afghanistan, Karzai sleeps.

Allah Uakbar.

Kabesh!

Here, Amerika, I will show you a pretty one.

God is great!

Sexy goats, ohhh.