Australian Politics Forum - Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!

Mattyfisk

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #15 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 8:18pm

aquascoot wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 6:02am:

you cant help people who are operating at a lower paradigm.

a successful businessman who takes on a homeless guy and offers him great opportunities will usually see that homeless guy raid the fridge, raid the petty cash and head off to the pub to buy a "drink".
if people are in low vibration energy, if they are used to violence and fighting and anger and sexism and intimidation and selling drugs, they arent capable of just seeing a better life.

its like if you were a druggie with a hangover and you werent eating right and you hadnt been socialised well and your brain literally doesnt work.
if i gave you a copy of nelson mandellas "long walk to freedom" and said "read this, it will help you move up", you wouldnt get past page 1 before you felt like a nap or declared it was garbage and used it to burn in the fire.
you cant help people who are not close to a mental state that aspires to something better.
the afghanis are not in the mental state to assume western democracy.
it was naive and arrogant to assume otherwise

That's not my experience working with the homeless, dear. Most make the most of help and use it on the "narrow path to success", which is different for everyone.

Some don't, but I've found they're in the minority.

Afghans aren't in the mental state to work with occupying forces. I'm not sure why that's a challenging concept. Work with Uncle, and the Taliban take you in the middle of the night.

I believe you call this "sovereignty".

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #16 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:56pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 8:18pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 6:02am:

you cant help people who are operating at a lower paradigm.

a successful businessman who takes on a homeless guy and offers him great opportunities will usually see that homeless guy raid the fridge, raid the petty cash and head off to the pub to buy a "drink".
if people are in low vibration energy, if they are used to violence and fighting and anger and sexism and intimidation and selling drugs, they arent capable of just seeing a better life.

its like if you were a druggie with a hangover and you werent eating right and you hadnt been socialised well and your brain literally doesnt work.
if i gave you a copy of nelson mandellas "long walk to freedom" and said "read this, it will help you move up", you wouldnt get past page 1 before you felt like a nap or declared it was garbage and used it to burn in the fire.
you cant help people who are not close to a mental state that aspires to something better.
the afghanis are not in the mental state to assume western democracy.
it was naive and arrogant to assume otherwise

That's not my experience working with the homeless, dear. Most make the most of help and use it on the "narrow path to success", which is different for everyone.

Some don't, but I've found they're in the minority.

Afghans aren't in the mental state to work with occupying forces. I'm not sure why that's a challenging concept. Work with Uncle, and the Taliban take you in the middle of the night.

I believe you call this "sovereignty".

Sovereignty is being able to kill people in your embassy and have Donald Trump as a character witness for the murderer.

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Laugh till you cry Gold Member Offline Posts: 13879 In your happy place Gender:	Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now! Reply #17 - Nov 29^th, 2018 at 12:06am Whack a flea in FleaDriver's ear and he pisses off to demand a new script from his handler.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #18 - Nov 29^th, 2018 at 10:16am

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 12:45pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 2:41pm:

After 9/11 when the US demanded the taliban hand over bin Laden, the taliban reasonably asked for evidence of his guilt, and then offered to extradite bin Laden to a third country for trial.

Blind Freddy would have known that working with the only outfit in Afghanistan that resembled a functioning government in order to dismantle Al Qaeda and bring bin Laden to justice was the only viable way forward. Not least of all for the security interests of US citizens.

You are lying again Gandalf. Nothing resembled a functioning government in Afghanistan. It was a failed state, and was recognised as such by pretty much every nation on earth.

Bin Laden openly declared war on the US and openly attacked the US on more than one occasion, causing thousands of deaths.

Yet the same Muslim who trots out the "tough titties, off with their heads" excuse for genocide by Muslims, insists that every tribal warlord from the coast to the mountains should have been given the opportunity to stand in the US' way and delay or block their efforts to stop Bin Laden for as long as they want. Only a Muslim would insist on having negotiations after they had declared war and carried out attacks.

The US gave these scum more respect than they deserved when it offered them the opportunity to hand Bin Laden over themselves. They were neither willing nor able to do so, and no amount of negotiations would have changed that. The fact alone that Bin Laden had declared war already was all that was needed for any Afghan leader with a genuine interest in peace. But they were desperate for handouts from the US (to fund more terrorism) or to gain more kudos from their fellow jihadis by being seen as equals to the US and being able to stand in the US' way. As every blind freddy could see.

tired neocon propaganda memes are tired, and thankfully have largely been laughed out of court by most intelligent and sensible people.

There are of course a few zealots like FD holding out - stubbornly holding on to the laughable myth that destroying the regime that at least provided security and a functioning government to about 2/3rds of the country, with no transition plan - and literally opening up the floodgates for utterly corrupt and butchering rival warlords who tie people to tank treads and fire artillery in the middle of busy streets to break up protesters - to tear the country apart - was somehow a good move for advancing peace and security.

Such zealots who cannot comprehend the idea that you don't have to love the taliban to understand that working with them would have been the best way of dismantling the AQ terror threat and bringing bin Laden to justice - as opposed to bringing him to justice 10 years later and untold thousands dead later, not to mention a ticking time bomb of a failed state which makes the pre-2001 AQ terrorist threat look like a meditation session at a Tibetan monastery.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now! Reply #19 - Nov 29^th, 2018 at 12:43pm Quote: tired neocon propaganda memes are tired, and thankfully have largely been laughed out of court by most intelligent and sensible people Do you disagree with anything I posted Gandalf? What makes you think they had no transition plan?
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Mattyfisk

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #20 - Nov 29^th, 2018 at 12:55pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:56pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 8:18pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 6:02am:

you cant help people who are operating at a lower paradigm.

a successful businessman who takes on a homeless guy and offers him great opportunities will usually see that homeless guy raid the fridge, raid the petty cash and head off to the pub to buy a "drink".
if people are in low vibration energy, if they are used to violence and fighting and anger and sexism and intimidation and selling drugs, they arent capable of just seeing a better life.

its like if you were a druggie with a hangover and you werent eating right and you hadnt been socialised well and your brain literally doesnt work.
if i gave you a copy of nelson mandellas "long walk to freedom" and said "read this, it will help you move up", you wouldnt get past page 1 before you felt like a nap or declared it was garbage and used it to burn in the fire.
you cant help people who are not close to a mental state that aspires to something better.
the afghanis are not in the mental state to assume western democracy.
it was naive and arrogant to assume otherwise

That's not my experience working with the homeless, dear. Most make the most of help and use it on the "narrow path to success", which is different for everyone.

Some don't, but I've found they're in the minority.

Afghans aren't in the mental state to work with occupying forces. I'm not sure why that's a challenging concept. Work with Uncle, and the Taliban take you in the middle of the night.

I believe you call this "sovereignty".

Sovereignty is being able to kill people in your embassy and have Donald Trump as a character witness for the murderer.

Is this true, Aquascoot? Does the Superior Man take a bone saw along to meetings with his subordinates?

Please explain, dear.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #21 - Dec 7^th, 2018 at 2:50pm

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2018 at 12:43pm:

What makes you think they had no transition plan?

I guess the whole collapsing into an anarchic heap while the US transferred troops and resources into Iraq - was a bit of a giveaway.

You know, its almost as if foregoing the whole overthrow and invasion - and avoiding 10s of thousands dead-just-to-hand-it-all-back-to-the-taliban thing would have been a more constructive route.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #22 - Dec 9^th, 2018 at 10:07am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2018 at 2:50pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2018 at 12:43pm:

What makes you think they had no transition plan?

I guess the whole collapsing into an anarchic heap while the US transferred troops and resources into Iraq - was a bit of a giveaway.

You know, its almost as if foregoing the whole overthrow and invasion - and avoiding 10s of thousands dead-just-to-hand-it-all-back-to-the-taliban thing would have been a more constructive route.

Would you have preferred Afghanistan was simply handed back to the Taliban?

Can you explain your logic about how the invasion of Iraq is evidence that there was no transition plan for Afghanistan?

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Frank

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #23 - Dec 9^th, 2018 at 5:13pm

The problem was that almost everyone believed the propaganda about Muslims - Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians, Saudis, Pakis - being just like everyone else, wanting exactly what everyone else wanted, if only they could have free and fair elections.
The evidence shows that what they want is what they have always wanted and done - tribal war, feuds, fractiousness and endless sectarian strife. That crap is still peddled today as 'the vast majority of Muslims just want to take the kids to school and get on with life'.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #24 - Dec 9^th, 2018 at 7:07pm

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2018 at 10:07am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2018 at 2:50pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2018 at 12:43pm:

What makes you think they had no transition plan?

I guess the whole collapsing into an anarchic heap while the US transferred troops and resources into Iraq - was a bit of a giveaway.

You know, its almost as if foregoing the whole overthrow and invasion - and avoiding 10s of thousands dead-just-to-hand-it-all-back-to-the-taliban thing would have been a more constructive route.

Would you have preferred Afghanistan was simply handed back to the Taliban?

Can you explain your logic about how the invasion of Iraq is evidence that there was no transition plan for Afghanistan?

You don't have to hand it back if you don't take it from them in the first place FD. Its difficult to imagine what could have been more catastrophic for western security, not to mention for the stability of Afghanistan - than what the US did in Afghanistan from 2001.

As for Iraq, any viable transition plan would have included occupation by a large number of US troops as its most central pillar. As it turns out, the US almost from the very beginning was planning for an occupation not of Afghanistan, but Iraq. It became clear that Iraq was always going to be the main target of US reprisals after 9/11, not Afghanistan. The overthrow of the taliban and dismantling of AQ was almost tokenistic - something that they knew they couldn't avoid, but weren't terribly interested in. So thats my logic - there was no transition plan, basically because they the US didn't want to allocate the resources that would have been essential for any viable transition plan.

The irony? Turns out there wasn't much of a transition plan for Iraq either.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #25 - Dec 9^th, 2018 at 9:09pm

Quote:

You don't have to hand it back if you don't take it from them in the first place FD. Its difficult to imagine what could have been more catastrophic for western security, not to mention for the stability of Afghanistan - than what the US did in Afghanistan from 2001.

Earth to Gandalf: it was a failed state, with no recognised governing authority and with factions within it openly declaring war against the most powerful nation on earth, and doing their best to get it started. It could not have been less stable. Other than being very Muslim and very backwards, what could possibly attract you to the idea of just waiting to see what they did next?

Quote:

As for Iraq, any viable transition plan would have included occupation by a large number of US troops as its most central pillar.

You attempted to argue that Iraq was somehow evidence that the US did not have a transition plan in Afghanistant. I asked you to explain that logic. Would you like to have another go?

Quote:

As it turns out, the US almost from the very beginning was planning for an occupation not of Afghanistan, but Iraq.

So you think they got lost and turned up in Afghanistan by mistake?

Quote:

So thats my logic - there was no transition plan, basically because they the US didn't want to allocate the resources that would have been essential for any viable transition plan.

So despite the obvious transition plan, which they are still following through with, your only argument is that they had no plan because you didn't think they wanted to commit the resources to one?

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issuevoter

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #26 - Dec 9^th, 2018 at 11:23pm

The Talibs were not really a government, just a group of religious, woman beating, little-boy rooters who happened to have guns. With US air-cover, the Northern Alliance captured Kabul from Mullah Omar. Even watching the events from afar, it was obvious what was going to happen next , when Bush, needing to look tough in front of the American public, sent in ground troops. The Mohamedans were going to retreat into the hills and carry on a war of attrition. Any dummy could see that. It should have been left to the NA, but that doesn't win American elections. That being said, you can bet if the yanks had not gone in, they would have been just as wrong in the eyes of Leftistists, Islam-apologists and Euro progressives who want their wars fought by proxy.

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Laugh till you cry Gold Member Offline Posts: 13879 In your happy place Gender:	Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now! Reply #27 - Dec 10^th, 2018 at 12:53am The US has not won a war or won a peace since WW2.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #28 - Dec 10^th, 2018 at 7:50am

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2018 at 9:09pm:

Earth to Gandalf: it was a failed state, with no recognised governing authority

Earth to FD. You are wrong.

The taliban controlled up to 80-90% of the whole country at the time of 9/11. They were a far more effective and stable governing authority than anything thats come (and gone) since then.

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2018 at 9:09pm:

So you think they got lost and turned up in Afghanistan by mistake?

I think they saw Afghanistan as a necessary but bothersome loose end that they needed to tie up before embarking on their real goal - Iraq. Its no secret that key elements in the White House were gunning for Iraq ever since the immediate aftermath of 9/11. And it didn't take long at all to get The President on board.

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2018 at 9:09pm:

So despite the obvious transition plan, which they are still following through with, your only argument is that they had no plan because you didn't think they wanted to commit the resources to one?

Everything except the bit of about there being an 'obvious transition plan'

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #29 - Dec 10^th, 2018 at 7:59am

issuevoter wrote on Dec 9^th, 2018 at 11:23pm:

The Talibs were not really a government, just a group of religious, woman beating, little-boy rooters

Fun fact - the taliban instituted the death penalty for 'little-boy rooting' (Bacha bazi), and largely stamped out the practice under their rule:

Quote:

The Taliban had a deep aversion towards bacha bazi, outlawing the practice when they instituted strict nationwide sharia law. According to some accounts, including the hallmark Times of London article "Kandahar Comes out of the Closet" in 2002, one of the original provocations for the Taliban’s rise to power in the early 1990s was their outrage over pedophilia. Once they came to power, bacha bazi became taboo, and the men who still engaged in the practice did so in secret.

When the former mujahideen commanders ascended to power in 2001 after the Taliban’s ouster, they brought with them a rekindled culture of bacha bazi. Today, many of these empowered warlords serve in important positions, as governors, line ministers, police chiefs, and military commanders.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy/

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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