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Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now! (Read 22067 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #45 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 3:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 12:34pm:
Fine. Let's put the semantics aside. Do you concede I was right that Afghanistan was a failed state?


No. What does that even mean? Your only criteria seems to be how many countries recognised the ruling authority as legitimate. How does that make it a failed state? It doesn't, obviously. See how you are still playing with semantics - even when you promise to put them aside?

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 12:34pm:
How "effectively" does a group control a country (or stabely for that matter) if they cannot stop a terrorist organisiation springing up, declaring war on the most powerful nation on earth, repeatedly attacking them and finally drawing them in to invading


Lordy where to start  Roll Eyes

firstly, they did not "spring up" during Taliban rule, they were already there - invited in actually by the previous regime that was many times worse in terms of providing stability than the Taliban. The truth is the Taliban and AQ had a marriage of convenience - as AQ provided essential resources - money and manpower - in their war against the northern alliance. Yes, the Taliban were in a precarious position financially, but this doesn't make their authority over society fundamentally 'unstable', let alone the definition of a 'failed state'. All the evidence, including the accounts of the doctors that you yourself produced, points to them achieving quite significant stability and security for the people - albeit quite brutal. By 1996 the front lines had stabilised, with the Taliban consolidating control over around 80-90% of the country, and remained stable right until the US overthrew them in late 2001. And within that area of control, the Taliban authority was undisputed. These are the things you consider when asking whether it was a failed state - not how many countries recognised tie ruling authority as legitimate.

Secondly, terrorists establishing themselves in a country and launching terrorist attacks - gosh who ever heard of that!! It happens everywhere - rich countries, poor countries, most of them are not "failed states". Is India a "failed state" because it owns pieces of territory that are de-facto controlled by militants which launch terrorist attacks? Obviously not. Ditto to Pakistan. Is the Ukraine a "failed state" because it has an out-of-control area of insurgents waging a separatist war? Obviously not.
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #46 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 5:03pm
 
Quote:
No. What does that even mean? Your only criteria seems to be how many countries recognised the ruling authority as legitimate.


That was one piece of evidence for it.

Quote:
How does that make it a failed state?


A state is an entirely human construct. They exist only by convention. If no-one else thinks your state does not exist, then by definition it does not exist.

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See how you are still playing with semantics - even when you promise to put them aside?


I promised nothing. I merely gave you the opportunity to put semantics aside.

Quote:
firstly, they did not "spring up" during Taliban rule, they were already there - invited in actually by the previous regime that was many times worse in terms of providing stability than the Taliban


What previous regime?

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The truth is the Taliban and AQ had a marriage of convenience


Grin The same people you insist the US should have "worked with". How convenient.

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Yes, the Taliban were in a precarious position financially, but this doesn't make their authority over society fundamentally 'unstable', let alone the definition of a 'failed state'.


Does the fact they only controlled a majority of the country for less than 5 years make them unstable?

Why does being in a "marriage of convenience" with the very organisation that brought about their undoing not count as being unstable?

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By 1996 the front lines had stabilised


Crap.

...

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Secondly, terrorists establishing themselves in a country and launching terrorist attacks - gosh who ever heard of that!! It happens everywhere - rich countries, poor countries, most of them are not "failed states".


Can you give an example of where a "stable and effective" government was in a "marriage of convenience" with a terrorist organisation that openly declared war on and attacked far more powerful nations?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #47 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 8:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 5:03pm:
A state is an entirely human construct. They exist only by convention. If no-one else thinks your state does not exist, then by definition it does not exist.


Again, how does it make it a "failed state"? - and by that I mean the definition that we actually use on planet earth - ie:

A failed state is a political body that has disintegrated to a point where basic conditions and responsibilities of a sovereign government no longer function properly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 5:03pm:
Quote:
By 1996 the front lines had stabilised


Crap.


Good point FD, the taliban consolidated their power even more after 1996 - right up until the US bombed them out of existence.

Well at least you're no longer arguing that the taliban was a 'failed state' because of what was happening in Afghanistan when it didn't even exist!

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 5:03pm:
What previous regime?


I'm not spoonfeeding you basic facts of history again FD. If you can't even be bothered to understand the most basic facts of a history debate, then I suggest you don't waste our time by trying to engage in that debate.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #48 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 9:06pm
 
Afghanistan is not a failed state as much as this isn't the internet.
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #49 - Dec 16th, 2018 at 6:09am
 
Quote:
Again, how does it make it a "failed state"? - and by that I mean the definition that we actually use on planet earth - ie:

A failed state is a political body that has disintegrated to a point where basic conditions and responsibilities of a sovereign government no longer function properly


Would you say that preventing incursions by foreign governments is a basic responsibility? What about terrorist organisations having free reign to pick fights with whoever they want? What about having zero ability to represent the state yousupposedly govern?

Quote:
I'm not spoonfeeding you basic facts of history again FD. If you can't even be bothered to understand the most basic facts of a history debate, then I suggest you don't waste our time by trying to engage in that debate.


Which regime were you referring to Gandalf? Am I supposed to guess?

Also, you keep dodging the point about how being in "power" for about 5 years counts as stable. Are you having difficulty understanding the question?
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #50 - Dec 17th, 2018 at 2:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 6:09am:
Would you say that preventing incursions by foreign governments is a basic responsibility? What about terrorist organisations having free reign to pick fights with whoever they want? What about having zero ability to represent the state yousupposedly govern?


No.

The "basic responsibility" is to provide essential services and security for the population under your control - and to effectively stamp your authority over that population. And by most accounts, the taliban did that, albeit quite brutally. And certainly you haven't presented any sort of case that they didn't. In fact the rare occassions that you actually address anything relevant on this point - you just refute your own argument - by showing maps of the taliban consolidating their control over most of the country during the period they ruled, and quoting doctors saying how effective their control over the population was. What AQ was doing to other countries didn't effect this fundamental criteria - even when they did it under the taliban's noses.

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 6:09am:
What about having zero ability to represent the state yousupposedly govern?


On the world stage? Again, utterly irrelevant. How does that determine how effectively the taliban were providing services and security over their population and consilidating their control over them? It doesn't.

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 6:09am:
Which regime were you referring to Gandalf? Am I supposed to guess?


The regime that preceded the taliban. You are not supposed to guess. Guessing is bad for any informed discussion.

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 6:09am:
Also, you keep dodging the point about how being in "power" for about 5 years counts as stable. Are you having difficulty understanding the question?


I certainly am. Why on earth wouldn't 5 years of power count as stable - if in fact they provided stability? Your question is completely non-sensical.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #51 - Dec 17th, 2018 at 4:08pm
 
The more posts I read from Gandalf the more he sounds like a Taliban member.
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #52 - Dec 17th, 2018 at 10:20pm
 
Quote:
The "basic responsibility" is to provide essential services and security for the population under your control


But that has nothing to do with preventing foreigners invading?

Quote:
and to effectively stamp your authority over that population


By letting a terrorist organisation dictate foreign policy and drag you into wars you cannot win?

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by showing maps of the taliban consolidating their control over most of the country during the period they ruled


They were not "consolidating". They were expanding. Until they were shrinking. You are going to absurd lengths to change the meaning of words to turn the taliban's brutal and violent 5 year reign into stability.

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On the world stage? Again, utterly irrelevant. How does that determine how effectively the taliban were providing services and security over their population and consilidating their control over them? It doesn't.


So having terrorist organisations within your border declare war on the most powerful nation on earth, attack them repeatedly, and provoke them into invading your country has absolutely no impact on the services and security you supposedly provide to your country?

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The regime that preceded the taliban. You are not supposed to guess. Guessing is bad for any informed discussion.


What regime were you referring to Gandalf? Is asking a Muslim what they mean too big an ask?

Quote:
I certainly am. Why on earth wouldn't 5 years of power count as stable - if in fact they provided stability?


So stability has nothing at all to do with time? You would in fact make the same argument about stable rule if they only ruled for two days?
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #53 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 11:40am
 
It must have caused quite a bit of chagrin among the Mullah "Government" back in Kabul, when they found out that some of the bombers over their front line with the Northern Alliance, were flown by American women. Of course that would not have been nearly so disturbing for them, as it would have been for the rag-heads running down the road with their arses on fire, and shouting Allah Akabaa!!!
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #54 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:17pm
 
So to sum up FD's argument:

whether or not a state is considered a "failed state" - has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual ability of the state to function, but hingles entirely on what foreign nations decide to do to, and about it.

There is also a time limit - apparently; must be more than 5 years of stability.

And voila, a 'failed state' according to FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #55 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:45pm
 
Consider this simple question Gandalf:

Did the Taliban sanction Al Quaida's declaration of war and repeated attacks on the US?

If the answer is yes, then they had already declared war and attacked by proxy, so the US had no reason to negotiate with them.

If the answer is no, then they were not in effective control of the failed state and the US had no reason to negotiate with them.

Quote:
whether or not a state is considered a "failed state" - has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual ability of the state to function, but hingles entirely on what foreign nations decide to do to, and about it.


Are you deliberately misrepresenting my argument, or can you just not see how Al Quaida declaring war on and attacking a powerful foreign country is relevant to the Taliban's authority and ability to provide security?

Or is it just that your opening position on everything is that it is America's fault?

Quote:
There is also a time limit - apparently; must be more than 5 years of stability.


You said they were "more stable" then proceeded on the basis that time has nothing to do with stability. Would you make the same argument about stable rule if they only ruled for two days?
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #56 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 3:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:45pm:
If the answer is no, then they were not in effective control of the failed state and the US had no reason to negotiate with them.


Simplistic nonsense.

Autonomous factions operate with impunity in many functioning states - even to the extent of conducting independent military operations against other more powerful states. Lebanon springs to mind. Yes, it means the regime has a weakened authority, but that is a long way to being in the "failed state" category.  The criteria has to be around the ability of the regime to control and provide basic services and security for their populace. And even if AQ existed as a 'state within a state', I see no evidence that they undermined the taliban's ability to provide the basic requirements of a functioning state. Again, the only evidence you have provided that is of relevance, is that of the doctors testifying that the taliban had a very effective grip on the population.

Also, alluding to the taliban's diminished authority in terms of their ability to rein in AQ, is not a good justification for abandoning negotiations altogether and opting for wholesale regime change. Even you should be able to see what a disaster that option has been - for both Afghanistan and the west's security. The taliban were not suicidal - they wanted to survive, and whats more right up until 9/11 they were working hard to open diplomatic and trade relations with the world. In that very year, the taliban were within an inch of securing a gas pipeline deal with the Bush administration. A trade delegation had visited the white house. It is known that members of the taliban were horrified when they heard about the 9/11 attacks - since they knew what was likely in store for them as the response. The point is, the taliban were interested in self-preservation, and its simply implausible that they opted for the belligerant/no compromise route. Of course it wasn't surprising that the US took the course it did, but in hindsight, it would have been far less costly for all involved to work with what they should have known was a willing partner - to get justice.

And no, this is not a spineless apology for the taliban. Just common sense.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #57 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:57pm
 
Gandalf, you are basically trying the "Nazis made the trains run on time" argument with the Taliban, in order to justify your preference for the Taliban's brutal Islamofascism over establishing democracy.

Only problem is, the Taliban did not make the trains run on time. They chopped them up for firewood and broke all the clocks. They entered into a "marriage of convenience" (your own words) with a terrorist organisation that set it's own foreign policy agenda, which involved declaring war on and repeatedly attacking the most powerful nation on earth, bringing about the Taliban's destruction within 5 years of the Taliban first gaining control of half of the country - which you somehow turn into effective and stable rule, as well as providing "basic security".

Would you make the same argument about stable rule if they only ruled for two days? How do you justify your apparent position that how long you are in power for is irrelevant to whether you provide stable rule?
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #58 - Dec 19th, 2018 at 3:27am
 
Sad Sam had effective and stable rule - a minority ran the show as they liked and the vast majority were powerless serfs and peasants.....

Effective and stable government is not the same as righteous government.... the same rule applied to the Nazis, who did everything legally via a vote in their House... as I said - the trouble was that the rest of the world did not agree... and set in place one of the methods of removing a dangerous government.....

(I must find that little dissertation of mine on the ways in which a poor and/or dangerous government can be removed... slipped away somewhere in my travels.... oh, for a solid tenure in a prestigious university ... the life of the Ronin educated man is not easy...)
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Re: Afghanistan is Collapsing. Get Out: Now!
Reply #59 - Dec 19th, 2018 at 7:22am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:57pm:
Gandalf, you are basically trying the "Nazis made the trains run on time" argument with the Taliban, in order to justify your preference for the Taliban's brutal Islamofascism over establishing democracy.

Only problem is, the Taliban did not make the trains run on time. They chopped them up for firewood and broke all the clocks. They entered into a "marriage of convenience" (your own words) with a terrorist organisation that set it's own foreign policy agenda, which involved declaring war on and repeatedly attacking the most powerful nation on earth, bringing about the Taliban's destruction within 5 years of the Taliban first gaining control of half of the country - which you somehow turn into effective and stable rule, as well as providing "basic security".

Would you make the same argument about stable rule if they only ruled for two days? How do you justify your apparent position that how long you are in power for is irrelevant to whether you provide stable rule?


Well said. But that will not bother him, he's a Muzlim.
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