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Islam and the Future of Tolerance (Read 4594 times)
freediver
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #15 - Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:31pm
 
This is the moral gymnastics you need to be an Islamic apologist - if you want to say something about Christianity, use Hitler or some other dictator as an example, but not Jesus. And never ever let Muhammad tgp be an example of Islam.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #16 - Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You were the one to bring Hitler up, not me, FD.  You were the one who suggested that Hitler was an example of how good Christians should behave, not me.

Run along, I think you need to reacquaint yourself with some civilised behaviour.    Roll Eyes
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Frank
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #17 - Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.

It is a mail order doctorate. You know a print-at-home one, $9.99 PLUS POSTAGE.

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Brian Ross
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #18 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 6:50pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:55pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.

It is a mail order doctorate. You know a print-at-home one, $9.99 PLUS POSTAGE.


...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk, someone seems to have left the gate open on the little kiddies' playground again.    Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Frank
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #19 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:25pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 6:50pm:
Frank wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:55pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.

It is a mail order doctorate. You know a print-at-home one, $9.99 PLUS POSTAGE.


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk, someone seems to have left the gate open on the little kiddies' playground again.    Roll Eyes

Show us yer doctorate, aunty!!!  Go on!!!



(you stupid, vain scavenging bin chicken of an old aunt)
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Brian Ross
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #20 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:25pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:25pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 6:50pm:
Frank wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:55pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.

It is a mail order doctorate. You know a print-at-home one, $9.99 PLUS POSTAGE.


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk, someone seems to have left the gate open on the little kiddies' playground again.    Roll Eyes

Show us yer doctorate, aunty!!!  Go on!!!

(you stupid, vain scavenging bin chicken of an old aunt)


...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Can someone come and collect their child?  They're having a bit o' a tanty in Aisle 3.  Please, someone come and collect this child lying on the floor, hitting their fists against the lino?   Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #21 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:36am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.


Actually Brian has never defended let alone 'aplogised' for the religion itself. He has been remarkably consistent on his views on all religion - that is the actual doctrine and teachings, which is that they are all equally bad. to merely say they are all as bad as each other, I think makes him an apologist in your book, given you clearly have the view that doctrinally, Islam is undeniably worse in terms of intolerance and incitement to violence than pretty much any other religion - certainly christianity.

The main point of difference between you though is that Brian doesn't dwell on any of the doctrines, and focuses instead on actual deeds of its followers. And he very rightly points to the history of violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity, which on balance, undeniably overshadows violence perpetrated in the name of Islam - in terms of sheer scale. He also very rightly points out that the vast majority of muslims are peaceful and tolerant. Whether this is because of or in spite of their religious doctrine is, I surmise, irrelevant to Brian.

What Brian probably needs to address more, and I invite him to do so, includes things like:

- the fact that Christianity's violent record is largely ancient history and has less relevance now compared to Islam's record
- the charge that Jesus was by most accounts a pacifist and preached non-violence, and that this provides a pretty strong argument that this is the accepted template for most christians - contrasted with Muhammad, where violence is not completely rejected
- the more general charge that the current spike in Islamic violence is strongly based in doctrine, and is therefore systemic in the muslim community.

That said, I completely understand why he feels the need to play devil's advocate in the face of the constant barrage of Islamophobia on this board. Not to mention the intense personal abuse he faces - the level of which I don't think I've seen directed at any other member on this entire forum. Its unfortunately you guys are so deeply stuck in your own corners of the ring and so focused on 'beating' each other, rather than actually engaging constructively. And no, I am not blameless either.
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« Last Edit: Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:41am by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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issuevoter
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #22 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:06am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:36am:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.



Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.


Actually Brian has never defended let alone 'aplogised' for the religion itself. He has been remarkably consistent on his views on all religion - that is the actual doctrine and teachings, which is that they are all equally bad. to merely say they are all as bad as each other, I think makes him an apologist in your book, given you clearly have the view that doctrinally, Islam is undeniably worse in terms of intolerance and incitement to violence than pretty much any other religion - certainly christianity.

The main point of difference between you though is that Brian doesn't dwell on any of the doctrines, and focuses instead on actual deeds of its followers. And he very rightly points to the history of violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity, which on balance, undeniably overshadows violence perpetrated in the name of Islam - in terms of sheer scale. He also very rightly points out that the vast majority of muslims are peaceful and tolerant. Whether this is because of or in spite of their religious doctrine is, I surmise, irrelevant to Brian.

What Brian probably needs to address more, and I invite him to do so, includes things like:

- the fact that Christianity's violent record is largely ancient history and has less relevance now compared to Islam's record
- the charge that Jesus was by most accounts a pacifist and preached non-violence, and that this provides a pretty strong argument that this is the accepted template for most christians - contrasted with Muhammad, where violence is not completely rejected
- the more general charge that the current spike in Islamic violence is strongly based in doctrine, and is therefore systemic in the muslim community.

That said, I completely understand why he feels the need to play devil's advocate in the face of the constant barrage of Islamophobia on this board. Not to mention the intense personal abuse he faces - the level of which I don't think I've seen directed at any other member on this entire forum. Its unfortunately you guys are so deeply stuck in your own corners of the ring and so focused on 'beating' each other, rather than actually engaging constructively. And no, I am not blameless either.


Oh, dearie me! You are dead wrong about Dr. Ross, DD. The only thing he is consistent about, is the ridicule of those who voice legitimate concerns about the violence endemic to Islam. Tsk, tsk.

So what is the future of Islam, a kind of moderate, Quaker style religion, or one where you abandon the idea that everyone else is an infidel? Islamic flower children? I doubt. I expect more of what we have seen so far.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #23 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:09am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.


What sound does a jellyfish make?
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #24 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:11am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:09am:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.


What sound does a jellyfish make?

blurp…..blurp…...blurp.
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #25 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:11am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:25pm:
Frank wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:25pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 6:50pm:
Frank wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:55pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.

Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.

It is a mail order doctorate. You know a print-at-home one, $9.99 PLUS POSTAGE.


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk, someone seems to have left the gate open on the little kiddies' playground again.    Roll Eyes

Show us yer doctorate, aunty!!!  Go on!!!

(you stupid, vain scavenging bin chicken of an old aunt)


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Can someone come and collect their child?  They're having a bit o' a tanty in Aisle 3.  Please, someone come and collect this child lying on the floor, hitting their fists against the lino?   Roll Eyes



Lol   Grin

Poor little Frankie.


...
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #26 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:39am
 
issuevoter wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:06am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:36am:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Not only is brian incapable of giving a straight answer about Islam, he is unable to say anything true about any other religion. He can do nothing more than very selectively pick examples of what supposed followers of each religion did and insist that is all we are capable of knowing.



Apparently you have to get a doctor of divinity to be able to speak so little truth about religion.


Actually Brian has never defended let alone 'aplogised' for the religion itself. He has been remarkably consistent on his views on all religion - that is the actual doctrine and teachings, which is that they are all equally bad. to merely say they are all as bad as each other, I think makes him an apologist in your book, given you clearly have the view that doctrinally, Islam is undeniably worse in terms of intolerance and incitement to violence than pretty much any other religion - certainly christianity.

The main point of difference between you though is that Brian doesn't dwell on any of the doctrines, and focuses instead on actual deeds of its followers. And he very rightly points to the history of violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity, which on balance, undeniably overshadows violence perpetrated in the name of Islam - in terms of sheer scale. He also very rightly points out that the vast majority of muslims are peaceful and tolerant. Whether this is because of or in spite of their religious doctrine is, I surmise, irrelevant to Brian.

What Brian probably needs to address more, and I invite him to do so, includes things like:

- the fact that Christianity's violent record is largely ancient history and has less relevance now compared to Islam's record
- the charge that Jesus was by most accounts a pacifist and preached non-violence, and that this provides a pretty strong argument that this is the accepted template for most christians - contrasted with Muhammad, where violence is not completely rejected
- the more general charge that the current spike in Islamic violence is strongly based in doctrine, and is therefore systemic in the muslim community.

That said, I completely understand why he feels the need to play devil's advocate in the face of the constant barrage of Islamophobia on this board. Not to mention the intense personal abuse he faces - the level of which I don't think I've seen directed at any other member on this entire forum. Its unfortunately you guys are so deeply stuck in your own corners of the ring and so focused on 'beating' each other, rather than actually engaging constructively. And no, I am not blameless either.


Oh, dearie me! You are dead wrong about Dr. Ross, DD. The only thing he is consistent about, is the ridicule of those who voice legitimate concerns about the violence endemic to Islam. Tsk, tsk.

So what is the future of Islam, a kind of moderate, Quaker style religion, or one where you abandon the idea that everyone else is an infidel? Islamic flower children? I doubt. I expect more of what we have seen so far.


actually infidel is an English word issue, which has roots in French and Latin. It is a word that identifies, and by inference demonizes, people by disbelief in religion (in this case christianity) alone. It may surprise you to learn that there is no arabic equivalent in relation to Islam. The popular myth is that the arabic root K-F-R (derives words such as kaffir, kufar, takfir etc) is the arabic equivalent, but this is false. A 'kaffir' is literally one who conceals - and in the Quran refers specifically to those who cheat and lie and generally conceal the truth. It is used in the context of condemning people for hypocricy and lying - not for disbelief per se.

Needless to say I don't buy into the idea that people should be identified and demonized (let alone hurt or killed) for a thought crime. Nor do I accept that Islam promotes such a view.

there is no compulsion in religion - 2:256

The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve - 18:29

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion - 109:6
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #27 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:27pm
 
Quote:
Actually Brian has never defended let alone 'aplogised' for the religion itself. He has been remarkably consistent on his views on all religion - that is the actual doctrine and teachings, which is that they are all equally bad.


Brian does appear to hold that view, but he refuses to discuss the actual doctrines and teachings. For example, in this thread he has preferred to use the actions of dictators to characterise Christianity. This could be reasonable for Islam, given that Muhammad himself was a dictator, but he refuses to let the words or actions of Muhammad characterise Islam. All he appears to have learnt from his mail order doctor of divinity is a grave fear of actually discussing religion.

BTW, Islam is also an English word. Good to see you getting to the heart of the matter.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #28 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 2:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:27pm:
Brian does appear to hold that view, but he refuses to discuss the actual doctrines and teachings. For example, in this thread he has preferred to use the actions of dictators to characterise Christianity. This could be reasonable for Islam, given that Muhammad himself was a dictator, but he refuses to let the words or actions of Muhammad characterise Islam. All he appears to have learnt from his mail order doctor of divinity is a grave fear of actually discussing religion.


Because for Brian, doctrine is not what characterises those religions. He thinks religious doctrine is neither here not there because its essentially meaningless and irrelevant to the day to day lives of their adherents. This is because he considers doctrine as obscure, incomprehensible mumbo jumbo that simple adherents couldn't possibly comprehend - even if they could be bothered reading it, which they mostly don't. Thus what characterises religion in Brian's view is the way individual adherents process and rationalise and act out their own beliefs - which for the reasons above, has little bearing on what the actual doctrine says. If nothing else he certainly addresses the rank inconsistency in the standard arguments here that attributes all muslim bad behaviour to bad doctrine, but somehow the jews are immune to their bad doctrine.

As for dictators=christianity but Muhammad doesn't = Islam - I think you have his argument backwards. I believe he's saying that Muhammad's (alleged) behaviour is no more relevant to muslim behaviour today than some representative christian dictator is to christian behaviour. Yes, it is a false equivalence, but only if your starting point is that religious doctrine and tradition (including through the actions of the prophets) is a key determiner for bad religious behaviour today - which is not Brian's.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Islam and the Future of Tolerance
Reply #29 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:27pm:
Quote:
Actually Brian has never defended let alone 'aplogised' for the religion itself. He has been remarkably consistent on his views on all religion - that is the actual doctrine and teachings, which is that they are all equally bad.


Brian does appear to hold that view, but he refuses to discuss the actual doctrines and teachings. For example, in this thread he has preferred to use the actions of dictators to characterise Christianity. This could be reasonable for Islam, given that Muhammad himself was a dictator, but he refuses to let the words or actions of Muhammad characterise Islam. All he appears to have learnt from his mail order doctor of divinity is a grave fear of actually discussing religion.

BTW, Islam is also an English word. Good to see you getting to the heart of the matter.


Actually, FD, it was YOU, not ME who introduced the idea that a dictator (ie, "Hitler") was a good example of a Christian ruler.   I used examples on the basis of Imperial Rule.  Something completely different.

Now, run along and tell us a few more lies,  Tsk, tsk,   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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