Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8
Send Topic Print
Gandalf, please explain this verse? (Read 12137 times)
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #60 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:44pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:12am:
Auggie wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 8:33pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 7:13pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 6:44pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Auggie wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:50pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
lets try another one then: what is 'ideology' when separated from its adherents?

I contend that in that situation ideology cannot exist.


a system of ideas and ideals


conjured up by who? Some magic entity that is entirely objective?


Allah? You do believe in Allah don't you?


You don't Auggie, thats the point. You're the one saying there can somehow be some 'objective' Quranic teaching. Yet you can't explain how its possible.


Because according to Islam, Allah gave those commandments. It doesn't matter what I personally believe; it matters what the religion teaches.


I'm not talking about according to Islam, Auggie, I'm talking about according to Auggie. And this is what you said:

There are two views on religion on belief:

1) What the religion teaches (objective)

2) What its followers believe about the religion (subjective)

What you believe about Islam might not correspond with what Islam teaches.


You insist, somehow, that "what the religion teaches" is somehow objectively separate to "what its followers believe about the religion" - as expressed in your last sentence above. You then followed up this statement by talking about "objective tenets of Islam" - again presumably somehow separate to "what its followers believe". Thats what you "personally believe" - and yes it matters if you are at all interested in having a coherent argument.

And I contend its complete nonsense, as I don't believe there can be anything "objective" about religion, because it literally cannot exist outside the subjective human domain. How can it possibly be otherwise? "what the religion teaches" can only come from the interpretations and beliefs of other humans, and is therefore inescapably subjective.


Would you say that belief in Muhammad as a Prophet is an objective tenet of Islam? That most Muslims would argue that one is not a Muslim is they don't believe that Muhammad was a Prophet?


The second question - obviously yes. The first question, no. You seem to be stuck in some circular argument where you refuse to accept or understand that I don't accept the premise of your arguments. Can you actually understand the fundamental contradiction between statements containing the phrase "belief in" and statements containing the phrase "objective tenet"?


So, what is objectivity? If 90% of adherents believe in something is that considered to be 'as objective as possible'? Or is just 'collective subjectivity'?

Most Muslims would not accept that a Muslim who doesn't believe in Muhammad is not a Muslim. This is objective to the point that the overwhelming majority of adherents of the Islamic faith believe these tenets.

When I used the term objectivity, what I mean to say is that there are certain beliefs that the majority of adherents would agree are the fundamentals and the basics.

When talking about Christians, there's no point in talking about Christians who don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God because they don't believe what the majority of Christians not only believe about Jesus but also what they believe Christianity is.

Most religious adherents, yourself included, would consider scripture to be absolute truth and fact. I'm not a religious person; I'm not bound by 'collective subjective' tenets about certain religions; you are.

So, if the word objectivity doesn't sit well with you, let's use the term 'collectively subjective' beliefs - to the extend that they are so subjective that are almost objective in nature.
Back to top
 

The Progressive President
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #61 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:06pm
 
Auggie wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:44pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:12am:
Auggie wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 8:33pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 7:13pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 6:44pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Auggie wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:50pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
lets try another one then: what is 'ideology' when separated from its adherents?

I contend that in that situation ideology cannot exist.


a system of ideas and ideals


conjured up by who? Some magic entity that is entirely objective?


Allah? You do believe in Allah don't you?


You don't Auggie, thats the point. You're the one saying there can somehow be some 'objective' Quranic teaching. Yet you can't explain how its possible.


Because according to Islam, Allah gave those commandments. It doesn't matter what I personally believe; it matters what the religion teaches.


I'm not talking about according to Islam, Auggie, I'm talking about according to Auggie. And this is what you said:

There are two views on religion on belief:

1) What the religion teaches (objective)

2) What its followers believe about the religion (subjective)

What you believe about Islam might not correspond with what Islam teaches.


You insist, somehow, that "what the religion teaches" is somehow objectively separate to "what its followers believe about the religion" - as expressed in your last sentence above. You then followed up this statement by talking about "objective tenets of Islam" - again presumably somehow separate to "what its followers believe". Thats what you "personally believe" - and yes it matters if you are at all interested in having a coherent argument.

And I contend its complete nonsense, as I don't believe there can be anything "objective" about religion, because it literally cannot exist outside the subjective human domain. How can it possibly be otherwise? "what the religion teaches" can only come from the interpretations and beliefs of other humans, and is therefore inescapably subjective.


Would you say that belief in Muhammad as a Prophet is an objective tenet of Islam? That most Muslims would argue that one is not a Muslim is they don't believe that Muhammad was a Prophet?


The second question - obviously yes. The first question, no. You seem to be stuck in some circular argument where you refuse to accept or understand that I don't accept the premise of your arguments. Can you actually understand the fundamental contradiction between statements containing the phrase "belief in" and statements containing the phrase "objective tenet"?


So, what is objectivity? If 90% of adherents believe in something is that considered to be 'as objective as possible'? Or is just 'collective subjectivity'?

Most Muslims would not accept that a Muslim who doesn't believe in Muhammad is not a Muslim. This is objective to the point that the overwhelming majority of adherents of the Islamic faith believe these tenets.


I'm told that's the only Islamic tenet, Auggie. There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His prophet.

Even the 5 pillars are somewhat obligatory. Don't fast if you're sick, don't do the Haj if you're disabled, etc. Quite a few Muslims drink too.

There is nothing in Islam that says its adherents must kill kuffars, as every Islamic schoolboy knows.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
moses
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6353
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #62 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:57pm
 
Yeah every schoolboy knows that they just *misinterpreted* it, when they went out and slaughtered men women and children kufirs.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #63 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 3:10pm
 
moses wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
Yeah every schoolboy knows that they just *misinterpreted* it, when they went out and slaughtered men women and children kufirs.


No, Moses, disobey it. There are quite a number of verses telling Muslims to leave the kuffars alone. There are certainly verses telling Muslims not to kill fellow Muslims. I imagine there's a verse somewhere about suicide too.

So how is a suicide bomber blowing up a Muslim school, hospital or wedding party obeying the words of the prophet?

You've read some of the verses, so I'm curious. How could anyone possibly misinterpret them?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
moses
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6353
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #64 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 4:39pm
 
Quote:
So how is a suicide bomber blowing up a Muslim school, hospital or wedding party obeying the words of the prophet?

You've read some of the verses, so I'm curious. How could anyone possibly misinterpret them?


4.74: Let those that fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the cause of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

2:207. And of mankind is he who would sell himself, seeking the Pleasure of Allah. And Allah is full of Kindness to (His) slaves.

61:11.  That you believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know!

qur'an 4.95: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

9.111: Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.


Sell the life of this world for the other? Slay and be slain?

The suicide bomber is convinced that he is selling this life on earth for allahs' paradise (hour'is with big tits and little boys).

Didn't muhammad tell them that paradise is under the shadow of the sword, in order to get them to fight to the death?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #65 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:26pm
 
moses wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 4:39pm:
Quote:
So how is a suicide bomber blowing up a Muslim school, hospital or wedding party obeying the words of the prophet?

You've read some of the verses, so I'm curious. How could anyone possibly misinterpret them?


4.74: Let those that fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the cause of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

2:207. And of mankind is he who would sell himself, seeking the Pleasure of Allah. And Allah is full of Kindness to (His) slaves.

61:11.  That you believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know!

qur'an 4.95: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

9.111: Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.


Sell the life of this world for the other? Slay and be slain?

The suicide bomber is convinced that he is selling this life on earth for allahs' paradise (hour'is with big tits and little boys).

Didn't muhammad tell them that paradise is under the shadow of the sword, in order to get them to fight to the death?


Well, you make a good point about the suicide - selling the life of this world is a good example. But can you say how killing innocents is justified?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 39928
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #66 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:03pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:26pm:
But can you say how killing innocents is justified?

No kuffar is innocent. Slavery or death is their lot under iSlam.

Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #67 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:09pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:26pm:
But can you say how killing innocents is justified?

No kuffar is innocent. Slavery or death is their lot under iSlam.



Where does it say that, old boy? In the words of your prophetess, please explain?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 39928
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #68 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:24pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
Frank wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:26pm:
But can you say how killing innocents is justified?

No kuffar is innocent. Slavery or death is their lot under iSlam.



Where does it say that, old boy? In the words of your prophetess, please explain?


"Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan" (Qur'an 4:76)

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

AND:
8:39
9:1-11
9:29
9:38-42,9:80-91
9:91
9:123
9:19-20, 57:10, 61:11
Sura 47:
47:20-23
47:25
48:29


Islam will always jizz ya, Paki.  You like. That's what brings you to it.





Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #69 - Nov 18th, 2018 at 10:42am
 
How do you translate killing armed enemies as killing kids and old people, old boy?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
moses
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6353
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #70 - Nov 18th, 2018 at 3:53pm
 
Karnal wrote: Reply #65 - Yesterday at 8:26pm

Quote:
Well, you make a good point about the suicide - selling the life of this world is a good example. But can you say how killing innocents is justified?


The Christians who muhammad falsely accused of ascribing partners to allah, then subsequently being raped tortured and slaughtered in their millions over the last millennium and a half, are a prime example of innocent people being subjected to the most evil and appalling human rights atrocities by muslims as a doctrinal duty.

The exact same thing applies to any other people of whatever persuasion they may be, being subjugated to the atrocities plied by muslims to the kufir, all non believers are innocent.

Where does the qur'an say to be kind to the non-believer?

Infact it's the exact opposite, the qur'an first off says allah causes disbelief, then it says that disbelief is hateful to allah and muslims, plus it says corrupters and hypocrites are to be tortured and killed.

islam is nothing more than a pack of lies from start to finish, allah never was an Abrahamic God, he is a reinvented pagan Arabian moon god, nothing more nothing less.

Because of the lies and evil nature of allahs' creator muhammad, today muslims are the terrorists of the world, the refugees of the world demanding the kufir feed and shelter them, muslims are a threat and burden to all mankind.

World events right now bear out my words.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #71 - Nov 18th, 2018 at 4:11pm
 
moses wrote on Nov 18th, 2018 at 3:53pm:
Karnal wrote: Reply #65 - Yesterday at 8:26pm

Quote:
Well, you make a good point about the suicide - selling the life of this world is a good example. But can you say how killing innocents is justified?


The Christians who muhammad falsely accused of ascribing partners to allah, then subsequently being raped tortured and slaughtered in their millions over the last millennium and a half, are a prime example of innocent people being subjected to the most evil and appalling human rights atrocities by muslims as a doctrinal duty.

The exact same thing applies to any other people of whatever persuasion they may be, being subjugated to the atrocities plied by muslims to the kufir, all non believers are innocent.

Where does the qur'an say to be kind to the non-believer?

Infact it's the exact opposite, the qur'an first off says allah causes disbelief, then it says that disbelief is hateful to allah and muslims, plus it says corrupters and hypocrites are to be tortured and killed.

islam is nothing more than a pack of lies from start to finish, allah never was an Abrahamic God, he is a reinvented pagan Arabian moon god, nothing more nothing less.

Because of the lies and evil nature of allahs' creator muhammad, today muslims are the terrorists of the world, the refugees of the world demanding the kufir feed and shelter them, muslims are a threat and burden to all mankind.

World events right now bear out my words.


Yes, but where does the Holy Quran tell Muslims to kill random believers?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
moses
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6353
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #72 - Nov 18th, 2018 at 4:48pm
 
karnal wrote: Reply #71 - Today at 4:11pm

Quote:
Yes, but where does the Holy Quran tell Muslims to kill random believers?


A sample of the doctrine which motivates the highest grade of muslims:

qur'an 2.8: And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

qur'an 2.10: In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

qur'an 2.11: And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

qur'an 2.12: Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

O.k. the above describes corrupters, then we have:

qur'an 4.88: What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].

qur'an 4.89: They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

why are muslims of two minds concerning the hypocrite / corrupter, if they don't wake up seize and kill them

qur'an 5.33: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

another command to torture and kill people for corruption

qur'an 66.9: O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

muhammad backing up his desire to torture and slaughter people who can think for themselves

Torture and kill hypocrites and corrupters would definitely come under the heading of killing random believers yes?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #73 - Nov 19th, 2018 at 1:35pm
 
moses wrote on Nov 18th, 2018 at 4:48pm:
karnal wrote: Reply #71 - Today at 4:11pm

Quote:
Yes, but where does the Holy Quran tell Muslims to kill random believers?


A sample of the doctrine which motivates the highest grade of muslims:

qur'an 2.8: And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

qur'an 2.10: In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

qur'an 2.11: And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

qur'an 2.12: Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

O.k. the above describes corrupters, then we have:

qur'an 4.88: What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].

qur'an 4.89: They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

why are muslims of two minds concerning the hypocrite / corrupter, if they don't wake up seize and kill them

qur'an 5.33: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

another command to torture and kill people for corruption

qur'an 66.9: O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

muhammad backing up his desire to torture and slaughter people who can think for themselves

Torture and kill hypocrites and corrupters would definitely come under the heading of killing random believers yes?


I'll ask again, Moses.

Where does the Holy Quran encourage followers to kill their fellow believers?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
moses
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6353
Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #74 - Nov 19th, 2018 at 2:13pm
 
karnal wrote: Reply #73 - Today at 1:35pm
Quote:
Where does the Holy Quran encourage followers to kill their fellow believers?


qur'an 2.8: And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

qur'an 2.10: In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

qur'an 2.11: And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

qur'an 2.12: Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

You don't think the above are referring to muslims who muhammad was pissed off with because they weren't bloodthirsty enough for him?

qur'an 3.167: And that He might make evident those who are hypocrites. For it was said to them, "Come, fight in the way of Allah or [at least] defend." They said, "If we had known [there would be] fighting, we would have followed you." They were nearer to disbelief that day than to faith, saying with their mouths what was not in their hearts. And Allah is most Knowing of what they conceal.

Once again the qur'an is decrying the muslims who don't want to continually kill people they are hypocrites.

qur'an 4.88: What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].

qur'an 4.89: They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

hypocrites are those muslims who didn't want to *come fight in the way of allah* muhammad hated the peaceful muslim

qur'an 5.33: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

torture and slaughter the corrupter muslim or otherwise

qur'an 66.9: O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

here we have allah telling muhammad to strive against and be hash with hypocrites

So a hypocrite would be a muslim who another muslim thinks is not practicing islam correctly, well then the criticizing muslim has the authority to seize and kill them, or add the charge of corruption and you can torture them as well.

It's all happening right now in the birth place of islam, muslims torturing and slaughtering other muslims without the slightest hint of a conscience, because it's a sacred duty according to the qur'an.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8
Send Topic Print