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Gandalf, please explain this verse? (Read 12134 times)
moses
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #15 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 2:37pm
 
islam is riddled with problems.

1400 years of islam has produced:

Massive inbreeding among Muslims has been going on since their prophet allowed first-cousin marriages more than 50 generations (1,400 years) ago. For many Muslims, therefore, intermarriage is regarded as being part of their religion.

Today, 70% of all Pakistanis are inbred and in Turkey the amount is between 25-30%

A rough estimate reveals that close to half of everybody living in the Arab world is inbred.

A BBC investigation in Britain several years ago revealed that at least 55% of the Pakistani community in Britain was married to a first cousin.

The Times of India affirmed that “this is thought to be linked to the probability that a British Pakistani family is at least 13 times more likely than the general population to have children with recessive genetic disorders.”

The BBC’s research also discovered that while British Pakistanis accounted for just 3.4% of all births in Britain, they accounted for 30% of all British children with recessive disorders and a higher rate of infant mortality.

One study comparing Norwegians and Pakistanis shows the risk that the child dies during labour increases by 50%. The risk of death due to autosomal recessive disorders — e.g., cystic fibrosis and spinal muscular atrophy — is 18 times higher.

Risk of death due to malformations is 10 times higher. Mental health is also at risk: the probability of depression is higher in communities where consanguine marriages are also high.

The closer the blood relative, the higher the risk of mental and physical retardation and schizophrenic illness.

And then there are the findings on intelligence. Research shows that if one’s parents are cousins, intelligence goes down 10-16 IQ points. The risk of having an IQ lower than 70 (criterion for being “retarded”) increases 400% among children from cousin marriages.

It is estimated that one third of all handicapped people in Copenhagen have a foreign background and 64% of school children in Denmark with Arabic parents are illiterate after 10 years in the Danish school system.

More than half of all children in schools for children with mental and physical handicaps in Copenhagen are foreigners — of whom Muslims are by far the largest group.
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #16 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 2:59pm
 
He was such a lovely boy, we just don't know why he was *radicalized*.

I think the symbol is, ffs they don't know why he was a jihadist.

Mental retardation, schizophrenic, physical retardation a book that has a majority theme of: non muslims are hated by allah and his believers, that the highest grade of muslims are those who slay and are slain, they are guaranteed a place in allahs' brothel in the sky.

This book is revered and quoted by muslims as the pinnacle of all understanding.

--------aaaaand they are so stupid they don't know why he become a jihadist.


Or are they lying?

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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #17 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:35pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 12th, 2018 at 8:22am:
Auggie wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:33pm:
Gandalf, shall I interpret your personal attack as evidence that Islam is not a very tolerant religion, and does not really promote criticism of the religion?


At the risk of being semantic, I did choose my words carefully - I didn't say you are a vindictive dick I said you come across as a vindictive dick. There is a difference, and it was very deliberate.

But if I caused offense then I apologise. Honestly though, its pretty clear to me that you've been desperately searching for ways that you can blame Islam ever since you arrived - and I think you are just using this forum for some good ol' confirmation bias - carefully packaged as some faux objective and reasonable voice.

And for the record, I have been an absolute shining beacon of tolerance on this forum. I endure actual personal attacks literally on a daily basis. Not to mention open calls to have myself as well as my family deported and/or locked up. I have not once, in my powers as moderator, deleted any of the regular barrage of offensive comments about Islam and muslims. Not once. Nor have I ever stooped to my attackers level and engaged in any of the sorts of ad-hominems that they engage in. If I ever become a little tetchy, then no one could possibly say I haven't been provoked.

So yeah, you'll forgive me if I duly give the idea that its me, as the resident symbol of Islam, who is the intolerant one - the rolled eyes treatment -  Roll Eyes, as well as Brian's trademarked 'tsk tsk'.


You can think about whatever you want about me or my personal thoughts.

I don't support any infringement of rights against Muslims. My view is that Islam is inherently a violent and militant ideology. That doesn't mean that all Muslims support or BELIEVE that Islam is a violent and militant ideology.

There are two views on religion on belief:

1) What the religion teaches (objective)

2) What its followers believe about the religion (subjective)

What you believe about Islam might not correspond with what Islam teaches.

EDIT: Gandalf, I still cannot simply comprehend why you would choose Islam as your religion. There are so many better religions out there that teach more original values than Islam (and no, not Christianity).

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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #18 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am
 
Auggie wrote on Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
There are two views on religion on belief:

1) What the religion teaches (objective)

2) What its followers believe about the religion (subjective)


No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective. How could it possibly be anything else? This of course is the fundamental problem most Islamic critics like yourself have. Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.

Auggie wrote on Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
EDIT: Gandalf, I still cannot simply comprehend why you would choose Islam as your religion.


Its simple Auggie. From your point of view, I *DON'T* choose Islam as my religion - that is, the inherently violent and intolerant version that you insist Islam is. Call me a non-muslim if it makes you feel better.
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #19 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:42pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective


This isn't what you've said before. You've conceded to me once that 'there is only so much you can stretch' in the Quran. I can't remember the exact context and details, but the implication was that there wasn't 'anything goes approach' in Islam.

You say that religion is entirely subjective, yet you adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam, such as the fact that the Quran is the absolute, eternal Word of God.

So, I conclude that you are entirely incorrect.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.


So, if a person was a follower of Nazism as a religion, and believed that Hitler was a Prophet of God, and insisted that Nazism was a 'religion of peace', you should then, by your own logic, completely accept that 'subjective' view of Nazism and treat that person as you would any other person. After all, it's all subjective, isn't it.
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #20 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:44pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Its simple Auggie. From your point of view, I *DON'T* choose Islam as my religion - that is, the inherently violent and intolerant version that you insist Islam is. Call me a non-muslim if it makes you feel better.


Ok, let me rephrase the question:

"Why did you choose to identify yourself as a Muslim?"


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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #21 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:46pm
 
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective


This isn't what you've said before. You've conceded to me once that 'there is only so much you can stretch' in the Quran. I can't remember the exact context and details, but the implication was that there wasn't 'anything goes approach' in Islam.

You say that religion is entirely subjective, yet you adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam, such as the fact that the Quran is the absolute, eternal Word of God.

So, I conclude that you are entirely incorrect.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.


So, if a person was a follower of Nazism as a religion, and believed that Hitler was a Prophet of God, and insisted that Nazism was a 'religion of peace', you should then, by your own logic, completely accept that 'subjective' view of Nazism and treat that person as you would any other person. After all, it's all subjective, isn't it.


FD? Is that you, dear?
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #22 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 8:56pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:46pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective


This isn't what you've said before. You've conceded to me once that 'there is only so much you can stretch' in the Quran. I can't remember the exact context and details, but the implication was that there wasn't 'anything goes approach' in Islam.

You say that religion is entirely subjective, yet you adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam, such as the fact that the Quran is the absolute, eternal Word of God.

So, I conclude that you are entirely incorrect.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.


So, if a person was a follower of Nazism as a religion, and believed that Hitler was a Prophet of God, and insisted that Nazism was a 'religion of peace', you should then, by your own logic, completely accept that 'subjective' view of Nazism and treat that person as you would any other person. After all, it's all subjective, isn't it.


FD? Is that you, dear?


I'm afraid that FD has actually copied my ideas, not the other way around. FD started bringing up 'Hitler as Prophet' only after I started talking about it.
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #23 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 9:07pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Auggie wrote on Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
There are two views on religion on belief:

1) What the religion teaches (objective)

2) What its followers believe about the religion (subjective)


No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective. How could it possibly be anything else? This of course is the fundamental problem most Islamic critics like yourself have. Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.


From your point of view, I *DON'T* choose Islam as my religion - that is, the inherently violent and intolerant version that you insist Islam is. Call me a non-muslim if it makes you feel better.



SO the Koran is not the eternal, unchangeable word of Allah???  Mohammed is not really the final messenger because the message is what you make of it, man, and it's all subjective, m'kay.  It's all 'whatever's your bag, man' in Islam?? When did this happen?

Is that the sunni or the shia doctrine or some other fringe  ideology that is likely to get you killed for apos-tootsy if you uttered it in Auburn or Lakemba, Riyadh or the Saudi Embassy in Istambul....?

Jihad and Islam's apostasy laws do not seem to support your lies about Islam being 'entirely subjective' .  Why do you think you can hazard such blatant lies?





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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #24 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 9:19pm
 
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 8:56pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:46pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective


This isn't what you've said before. You've conceded to me once that 'there is only so much you can stretch' in the Quran. I can't remember the exact context and details, but the implication was that there wasn't 'anything goes approach' in Islam.

You say that religion is entirely subjective, yet you adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam, such as the fact that the Quran is the absolute, eternal Word of God.

So, I conclude that you are entirely incorrect.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.


So, if a person was a follower of Nazism as a religion, and believed that Hitler was a Prophet of God, and insisted that Nazism was a 'religion of peace', you should then, by your own logic, completely accept that 'subjective' view of Nazism and treat that person as you would any other person. After all, it's all subjective, isn't it.


FD? Is that you, dear?


I'm afraid that FD has actually copied my ideas, not the other way around. FD started bringing up 'Hitler as Prophet' only after I started talking about it.


Really? Do you know what you are, Augie?

You're a trailblazer, an agent of change.
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #25 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 9:28pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 9:19pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 8:56pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:46pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective


This isn't what you've said before. You've conceded to me once that 'there is only so much you can stretch' in the Quran. I can't remember the exact context and details, but the implication was that there wasn't 'anything goes approach' in Islam.

You say that religion is entirely subjective, yet you adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam, such as the fact that the Quran is the absolute, eternal Word of God.

So, I conclude that you are entirely incorrect.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.


So, if a person was a follower of Nazism as a religion, and believed that Hitler was a Prophet of God, and insisted that Nazism was a 'religion of peace', you should then, by your own logic, completely accept that 'subjective' view of Nazism and treat that person as you would any other person. After all, it's all subjective, isn't it.


FD? Is that you, dear?


I'm afraid that FD has actually copied my ideas, not the other way around. FD started bringing up 'Hitler as Prophet' only after I started talking about it.


Really? Do you know what you are, Augie?

You're a trailblazer, an agent of change.


Now now, K. I’m sorry if I’ve offended. I’m merely trying to make a point by using an extreme eg.

I don’t dislike Muslims or even care about them. I just think their religion is intolerant and violent.
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #26 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 12:08am
 
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 9:19pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 8:56pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:46pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, 1. does not exist. There literally is no 'objective' truth to religion, it simply does not exist outside the interpretations and beliefs of its followers. Religion is *ENTIRELY* subjective


This isn't what you've said before. You've conceded to me once that 'there is only so much you can stretch' in the Quran. I can't remember the exact context and details, but the implication was that there wasn't 'anything goes approach' in Islam.

You say that religion is entirely subjective, yet you adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam, such as the fact that the Quran is the absolute, eternal Word of God.

So, I conclude that you are entirely incorrect.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:33am:
Its the Ayan Hirsi approach, an entirely condascending and rather arrogant approach where you pat 'good' muslims on the head and say 'oh thats nice dear, that you believe Islam is peaceful - you are of course 100% wrong though - but its the thought that counts'.


So, if a person was a follower of Nazism as a religion, and believed that Hitler was a Prophet of God, and insisted that Nazism was a 'religion of peace', you should then, by your own logic, completely accept that 'subjective' view of Nazism and treat that person as you would any other person. After all, it's all subjective, isn't it.


FD? Is that you, dear?


I'm afraid that FD has actually copied my ideas, not the other way around. FD started bringing up 'Hitler as Prophet' only after I started talking about it.


Really? Do you know what you are, Augie?

You're a trailblazer, an agent of change.


Now now, K. I’m sorry if I’ve offended. I’m merely trying to make a point by using an extreme eg.

I don’t dislike Muslims or even care about them. I just think their religion is intolerant and violent.


I don't think you've had any experience with it, Auggie - outside Moses, FD and Y's posts, of course.

You?
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #27 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 9:33am
 
Auggie wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 5:42pm:
This isn't what you've said before. You've conceded to me once that 'there is only so much you can stretch' in the Quran. I can't remember the exact context and details, but the implication was that there wasn't 'anything goes approach' in Islam.

You say that religion is entirely subjective, yet you adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam, such as the fact that the Quran is the absolute, eternal Word of God.

So, I conclude that you are entirely incorrect.


No, those contentions of mine are my subjective beliefs. When I claim to 'adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam' - thats me being entirely subjective on what constitutes 'objective tenets'. Thus the claim that you made that what you believe about Islam might not correspond with what Islam teaches makes no sense - since "what Islam teaches" is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and cannot possibly be seen as some "objective truth". And the same goes for any other religion. There simply cannot be any 'objective tenents' to religion, and its a particularly strange claim to be made about a religion by someone who isn't even a follower of that religion.

Quote:
So, if a person was a follower of Nazism as a religion, and believed that Hitler was a Prophet of God, and insisted that Nazism was a 'religion of peace', you should then, by your own logic, completely accept that 'subjective' view of Nazism and treat that person as you would any other person. After all, it's all subjective, isn't it.


Sure, why not. Surely the point though is that no one does. And this is the problem that FD never seems to get with his inane "Islam is no different to Nazis" meme - it completely dismisses what the reality actually is amongst both groups in the real world. Actual Nazis, probably 100% of them have no such beliefs about what their "religion" is. Unlike in Islam, where probably the majority actually do believe it is a religion of peace, or at the very least, not in any way an obstruction to peace and love and coexistence.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #28 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 9:44am
 
One more thing on the Nazis...

get back to me when beliefs in peace, coexistence and rejection of violent racial superiority becomes mainstream amongst adherents of the Nazi "religion". Until then, the comparison with Islam cannot be valid. However much you point to violent intolerance in Islamic text, and however much you point at violent intolerant muslims, you will never demonstrate that the actual worldwide muslim community is even in the same ballpark as the worldwide Nazi community - in terms of a violent and intolerant ideology being the dominant belief amongst its adherents.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf, please explain this verse?
Reply #29 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 5:18pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 9:33am:
No, those contentions of mine are my subjective beliefs. When I claim to 'adhere to some of the objective tenets of Islam' - thats me being entirely subjective on what constitutes 'objective tenets'. Thus the claim that you made that what you believe about Islam might not correspond with what Islam teaches makes no sense - since "what Islam teaches" is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and cannot possibly be seen as some "objective truth". And the same goes for any other religion. There simply cannot be any 'objective tenents' to religion, and its a particularly strange claim to be made about a religion by someone who isn't even a follower of that religion.


So, I could very well declare myself to be a Muslim this evening, whilst believing Jesus is the Son of God and that Muhammad was a false Prophet, and you'd be more than happy to call me a Muslim and to accept my beliefs as a Muslim??

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 9:44am:
One more thing on the Nazis...

get back to me when beliefs in peace, coexistence and rejection of violent racial superiority becomes mainstream amongst adherents of the Nazi "religion". Until then, the comparison with Islam cannot be valid. However much you point to violent intolerance in Islamic text, and however much you point at violent intolerant muslims, you will never demonstrate that the actual worldwide muslim community is even in the same ballpark as the worldwide Nazi community - in terms of a violent and intolerant ideology being the dominant belief amongst its adherents.


A lot Muslims around the world hold extremist beliefs, so the comparison isn't far off. Second, most Nazis are generally racial superiorists and don't support violence or expansionism.
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