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Newstudy frrom harvard Uni (Read 921 times)
lee
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Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Oct 5th, 2018 at 4:52pm
 
Quote:
The down side to wind power


"As the world begins its large-scale transition toward low-carbon energy sources, it is vital that the pros and cons of each type are well understood and the environmental impacts of renewable energy, small as they may be in comparison to coal and gas, are considered.

In two papers — published today in the journals Environmental Research Letters and Joule — Harvard University researchers find that the transition to wind or solar power in the U.S. would require five to 20 times more land than previously thought, and, if such large-scale wind farms were built, would warm average surface temperatures over the continental U.S. by 0.24 degrees Celsius."

"“Wind beats coal by any environmental measure, but that doesn’t mean that its impacts are negligible,” said David Keith, the Gordon McKay Professor of Applied Physics at the Harvard John A. Paulson School of Engineering and Applied Sciences (SEAS) and senior author of the papers."

"In previous research, Keith and co-authors modeled the generating capacity of large-scale wind farms and concluded that real-world wind power generation had been overestimated because they neglected to accurately account for the interactions between turbines and the atmosphere.

In 2013 research, Keith described how each wind turbine creates a “wind shadow” behind it where air has been slowed down by the turbine’s blades. Today’s commercial-scale wind farms carefully space turbines to reduce the impact of these wind shadows, but given the expectation that wind farms will continue to expand as demand for wind-derived electricity increases, interactions and associated climatic impacts cannot be avoided.

What was missing from this previous research, however, were observations to support the modeling. Then, a few months ago, the U.S. Geological Survey released the locations of 57,636 wind turbines around the U.S. Using this data set, in combination with several other U.S. government databases, Keith and postdoctoral fellow Lee Miller were able to quantify the power density of 411 wind farms and 1,150 solar photovoltaic plants operating in the U.S. during 2016.

“For wind, we found that the average power density — meaning the rate of energy generation divided by the encompassing area of the wind plant — was up to 100 times lower than estimates by some leading energy experts,” said Miller, who is the first author of both papers. “Most of these estimates failed to consider the turbine-atmosphere interaction. For an isolated wind turbine, interactions are not important at all, but once the wind farms are more than five to 10 kilometers deep, these interactions have a major impact on the power density.”

The observation-based wind power densities are also much lower than important estimates from the U.S. Department of Energy and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

For solar energy, the average power density (measured in watts per meter squared) is 10 times higher than wind power, but also much lower than estimates by leading energy experts.

This research suggests that not only will wind farms require more land to hit the proposed renewable energy targets but also, at such a large scale, would become an active player in the climate system.

The next question, as explored in the journal Joule, was how such large-scale wind farms would impact the climate system.

To estimate the impacts of wind power, Keith and Miller established a baseline for the 2012‒2014 U.S. climate using a standard weather-forecasting model. Then, they covered one-third of the continental U.S. with enough wind turbines to meet present-day U.S. electricity demand. The researchers found this scenario would warm the surface temperature of the continental U.S. by 0.24 degrees Celsius, with the largest changes occurring at night when surface temperatures increased by up to 1.5 degrees. This warming is the result of wind turbines actively mixing the atmosphere near the ground and aloft while simultaneously extracting from the atmosphere’s motion.

This research supports more than 10 other studies that observed warming near operational U.S. wind farms. Miller and Keith compared their simulations to satellite-based observational studies in North Texas and found roughly consistent temperature increases."

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/10/large-scale-wind-power-has-its-do...
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Bobby.
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #1 - Oct 5th, 2018 at 9:30pm
 
That's interesting -
you wouldn't think that wind turbines could change the climate.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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lee
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #2 - Oct 5th, 2018 at 10:15pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 5th, 2018 at 9:30pm:
That's interesting -
you wouldn't think that wind turbines could change the climate.


If they change the micro-climate they must change the macro-climate.

The alarmists like to talk about the effect of a butterfly's wings.
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Marla
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #3 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 5:59am
 
lee wrote on Oct 5th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
"In previous research, Keith and co-authors modeled the generating capacity of large-scale wind farms and concluded that real-world wind power generation had been overestimated because they neglected to accurately account for the interactions between turbines and the atmosphere.


That is the most ridiculous crap I've ever read. Interactions

lee wrote on Oct 5th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
In 2013 research, Keith described how each wind turbine creates a “wind shadow” behind it where air has been slowed down by the turbine’s blades. Today’s commercial-scale wind farms carefully space turbines to reduce the impact of these wind shadows, but given the expectation that wind farms will continue to expand as demand for wind-derived electricity increases, interactions and associated climatic impacts cannot be avoided.


Unlike, say, burning fossil fuels.

Who paid for this study? Strange how you left that out, lee.

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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #4 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 6:26am
 
“The direct climate impacts of wind power are instant, while the benefits of reduced emissions accumulate slowly,” said Keith. “If your perspective is the next 10 years, wind power actually has — in some respects — more climate impact than coal or gas. If your perspective is the next thousand years, then wind power has enormously less climatic impact than coal or gas.
“The work should not be seen as a fundamental critique of wind power,” he said. “Some of wind’s climate impacts will be beneficial — several global studies show that wind power cools polar regions. Rather, the work should be seen as a first step in getting more serious about assessing these impacts for all renewables. Our hope is that our study, combined with the recent direct observations, marks a turning point where wind power’s climatic impacts begin to receive serious consideration in strategic decisions about decarbonizing the energy system.”
more from the article that's interesting  Wink
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #5 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 6:29am
 
Marla wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 5:59am:
lee wrote on Oct 5th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
"In previous research, Keith and co-authors modeled the generating capacity of large-scale wind farms and concluded that real-world wind power generation had been overestimated because they neglected to accurately account for the interactions between turbines and the atmosphere.


That is the most ridiculous crap I've ever read. Interactions

lee wrote on Oct 5th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
In 2013 research, Keith described how each wind turbine creates a “wind shadow” behind it where air has been slowed down by the turbine’s blades. Today’s commercial-scale wind farms carefully space turbines to reduce the impact of these wind shadows, but given the expectation that wind farms will continue to expand as demand for wind-derived electricity increases, interactions and associated climatic impacts cannot be avoided.


Unlike, say, burning fossil fuels.

Who paid for this study? Strange how you left that out, lee.


Grants for research are provided to Harvard University from gifts made by Mr. Bill Gates from his personal funds.  The activities of the Fund for Innovative Climate and Energy Research fall outside the scope of activities of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation
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lee
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #6 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 1:39pm
 
Marla wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 5:59am:
Who paid for this study? Strange how you left that out, lee.



"Since its inception in 2007, FICER has given out grants to 13 research projects and various scientific meetings totaling $8.5 million.  Internationally known climate scientists Dr. David Keith of Harvard University, formerly of the University of Calgary, and Dr. Ken Caldeira of the Carnegie Institution for Science select projects that receive support from the fund.  While Mr. Gates provides input from time to time on the fund, Drs. Keith and Caldera make final decisions on projects."

https://www-legacy.dge.carnegiescience.edu/labs/caldeiralab/FICER.html

perhaps you wanted to find a link to fossil fuels? Koch Bros? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Ken Caldeira -"In response to the controversy caused by the book SuperFreakonomics over Caldeira's view on climate engineering, Caldeira rejected the suggestion that he had said, "Carbon dioxide is not the right villain". He responded by posting on his website, "Carbon dioxide is the right villain...insofar as inanimate objects can be villains."

Source: wiki.

Not even a "denier". Wink
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #7 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 7:41am
 
so a study that claim wind generators might raise the world temperature is fine
but any study that says CO2 will raise the temperature are completely wrong.....
got it  Wink
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lee
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #8 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 12:06pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 7:41am:
so a study that claim wind generators might raise the world temperature is fine
but any study that says CO2 will raise the temperature are completely wrong....



1. Where have I said CO2 will not raise world temperatures? There is evidence it may, albeit on a reducing scale as CO2 effect is diminishing logarithmic. Most of the effect is in the first 100ppm. Then of course we have to look at the climate in total. Winds have a great effect on temperature. And that of course relies on "all other things remaining equal".

2. Wind generators have been sold to the public as being "clean and green". Which should mean having no impact on the environment. Unless of course you want to redefine environment to something else.

But that still doesn't address the other issue raised -

" Harvard University researchers find that the transition to wind or solar power in the U.S. would require five to 20 times more land than previously thought"

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Bobby.
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #9 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 12:21pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 7:41am:
so a study that claim wind generators might raise the world temperature is fine
but any study that says CO2 will raise the temperature are completely wrong.....
got it  Wink



More CO2 will raise the world's temperature but it's only one factor.
Water vapor in air is the most powerful greenhouse gas -
in other words - clouds.
Ever noticed that on a cloud free night how cold it is?
The infra red radiation escapes into space -
when there are clouds it's trapped and so much warmer.
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Ajax
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #10 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 1:12pm
 
I thought as much a while back.

In the end I think green energy will be worse than fossil fuel energy...... Cheesy

...

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/26/wakey-wakey/
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. “Scratch the average homosexual and you will find a paedophile" Kevin Bishop
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #11 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 1:18pm
 
Cool photo!

Turbulence making the fog more distinct. Niffty.

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Understand this: things are now in motion that cannot be undone.
Try newstalkback2.proboards.com if you like.
It will be Racist / Islamophobe and Xenophobe free though Wink
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Re: Newstudy frrom harvard Uni
Reply #12 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:49pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 14th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
I thought as much a while back.

In the end I think green energy will be worse than fossil fuel energy...... Cheesy

https://preview.ibb.co/b8tEZU/windturb.jpg

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/26/wakey-wakey/



That's interesting -
if they create more clouds then the turbines will warm our planet.
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