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First F-35 fighter jet crash (Read 27568 times)
Cu Chulainn
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #75 - Oct 1st, 2018 at 11:04pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 11:02pm:
Cu Chulainn wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 10:46pm:
The 117s were supposed to destroy the AA radar. They were sent in first. To equate a Tornado with an F-111 that would need air bound radar to detect it as it could fly a couple of 100ft off the ground... I've had them fly over me. They used to do terrain following over the hills around Kyogle.





True -

That aside -
the problem with the F35s will be the requirement for air tankers.
They are easy to spot on radar and would lead enemy planes straight to our F35s.
If the air tanker are shot down the F35s will run out of fuel
and end up ditched in the sea or wherever.
It's a major weakness.


Yep, one missile hit from the ground or air and our range is crippled.

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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #76 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 7:45am
 
Cu Chulainn wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 11:04pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 11:02pm:
Cu Chulainn wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 10:46pm:
The 117s were supposed to destroy the AA radar. They were sent in first. To equate a Tornado with an F-111 that would need air bound radar to detect it as it could fly a couple of 100ft off the ground... I've had them fly over me. They used to do terrain following over the hills around Kyogle.





True -

That aside -
the problem with the F35s will be the requirement for air tankers.
They are easy to spot on radar and would lead enemy planes straight to our F35s.
If the air tanker are shot down the F35s will run out of fuel
and end up ditched in the sea or wherever.
It's a major weakness.


Yep, one missile hit from the ground or air and our range is crippled.


yup and 1 missile to the base and no planes at all  Wink Wink Wink
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #77 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:23am
 
Cu Chulainn wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 10:28pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 10:13pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 8:47pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 8:28pm:
"Under the radar" doesn't work very well anymore, and certainly not against modern fighters. And nobody flies expensive aircraft and even more expensive pilots over a target in a modern battlefield.




Really?
What if the F35 takes out all the SAM sites first and opens the skies for all other aircraft?

Those were the tactics used in the Gulf war 1.  ( in 1991)


Didn't stop the brits losing half a dozen Tornados, an aircraft designed to do pretty much what the F-111 does.


The f-117 that led the charge was not designed to do the job of the F-111. The F-117 led the bombing to take out radar but Tornadoes are not under the radar strike bombers which is why they needed the radar/anti aircraft batteries taken out by the 117s.



They are actually.

Both the Tornado and the F-111 are swing wing aircraft designed for low level strike missions with automated terrain following radar. They were both designed to do pretty much the same thing.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #78 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 10:32pm:
Cu Chulainn wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 10:28pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 10:13pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 8:47pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 8:28pm:
"Under the radar" doesn't work very well anymore, and certainly not against modern fighters. And nobody flies expensive aircraft and even more expensive pilots over a target in a modern battlefield.




Really?
What if the F35 takes out all the SAM sites first and opens the skies for all other aircraft?

Those were the tactics used in the Gulf war 1.  ( in 1991)


Didn't stop the brits losing half a dozen Tornados, an aircraft designed to do pretty much what the F-111 does.


The f-117 that led the charge was not designed to do the job of the F-111. The F-117 led the bombing to take out radar but Tornadoes are not under the radar strike bombers which is why they needed the radar/anti aircraft batteries taken out by the 117s.




The Tornados went in at low level before all the SAM sites were taken out and were hit by AAA.


And that's part of the problem. In any modern conflict against a parallel power you're extremely unlikely to get all the SAMs taken out.

You're also unlikely to get all the enemy fighters. One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #79 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm
 
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.


Luck or the lack of it, invariably plays a huge part in combat and in particular air combat.  All that is needed is a second's inattention or distraction in the cockpit and the plane you are flying could be toast.   Air combat occurs less frequently now, than in WWII or WWI but the same problems still apply.  "Beware the Hun in the Sun," was coined because it was true - the Luftwaffe used to use the position of the sun to hide their aircraft and creep up on their intended victims.  Pilots that do not check their six and look sunwards will be bounced by enemy aircraft.

The F-35 addresses this.  Partly by using stealth to become nearly invisible to enemy radars and partly through the use of EO (Electro-Optical) systems which allow the aircraft to detect approaching missiles and allows the pilot to "look through" the aircraft to quarters that would normally be invisible to him.  No other aircraft in production at the moment has this facility, only the F-35 possesses it.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.

The RAAF because it has an urgent need for a replacement for it's aged fleet of F/A-18A/Bs needs to purchase the F-35.  Unfortunately, it needs to do so early in the production run of the aircraft, when it is more expensive to purchase them than later in the production run when it would be cheaper to buy them ("economies of scale" produce that effect).   If instead of purchasing the F/A-18A/Bs replacement in one job lot it spread the purchase out over a decade, the prices would fall dramatically.  However, that is not how the ADF operates unfortunately.

Will the F-35 always be superior to Russian/Chinese/Swedish/European aircraft?  More than likely not.  In 20 years there will be other, newer aircraft on the market.  However, we cannot wait 20 years for our replacement aircraft - nor would we necessarily get the other newer aircraft as cheap as we are getting the F-35.  Our membership in the US alliance assures us of cheaper FMS (Foreign Military Sales) prices which are significantly cheaper than what are paid commercially for military products.  It is the one good thing about being closely allied to the US IMO.

So, think about the now, children, not the future.   NOW we need a replacement fighter-bomber, which will replace the F/A-18A/Bs we presently operate and enhance the capabilities of the RAAF.   We cannot afford to wait.  Simples really.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #80 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:57pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 30th, 2018 at 9:13am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 30th, 2018 at 9:08am:
I blame Islam.




You got that right..... South Carolina is rife with them.... did you know that aerial photos of the South Carolina tidewater area shows that it is a meteor impact field filled with craters... hence the rivers and creeks and billabongs and such....





Billabongs aren't formed from meteor impacts.  They are an Australian term for oxbow lake.
This picture of the Nowitna River, Alaska shows two oxbow lakes – a short one at the bottom of the picture and a longer, more curved one at the middle-right. Furthermore, it can be clearly seen how a third oxbow lake is in the making. The isthmus or bank in the centre of the most prominent meander is very narrow- much narrower than the width of the river. Eventually, the two sections of river on either side of the isthmus break through, and create a new, straighter course. A new river bank then starts to accumulate, sealing off the meander and leaving another oxbow lake.
An oxbow lake is a U-shaped lake that forms when a wide meander from the main stem of a river is cut off, creating a free-standing body of water. This landform is so named for its distinctive curved shape, which resembles the bow pin of an oxbow. I
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #81 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:05pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:33pm:
*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Much like your pretense of all knowledge ey? DH.

BTW Noddy since when have our politicians been experts on defense.

Like all the experts on the Collins Class Sub fiasco?  Grin


*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

The COLLINS class are still one of the largest, quietest, conventional submarines in service around the world.  For a first effort at Submarine building, they are not as bad as the media as portrayed them as.  The British BTW, the world's experts at design and submarine construction,  and welded a hull section on, upside down on their nuclear attack class of submarines,  the USA, had to scrap an entire boat on the stocks 'cause the welds were done incorrectly.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Their ongoing failings & constant upgrade requirements which saw them out of action for long periods make them on a par in the respective time frame as being bottomless money pits.

As for not knowing ones arse from ones elbow I'll take that as being advice from an expert in that dept.  Roll Eyes
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #82 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:14pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.


Luck or the lack of it, invariably plays a huge part in combat and in particular air combat.  All that is needed is a second's inattention or distraction in the cockpit and the plane you are flying could be toast.   Air combat occurs less frequently now, than in WWII or WWI but the same problems still apply.  "Beware the Hun in the Sun," was coined because it was true - the Luftwaffe used to use the position of the sun to hide their aircraft and creep up on their intended victims.  Pilots that do not check their six and look sunwards will be bounced by enemy aircraft.

The F-35 addresses this.  Partly by using stealth to become nearly invisible to enemy radars and partly through the use of EO (Electro-Optical) systems which allow the aircraft to detect approaching missiles and allows the pilot to "look through" the aircraft to quarters that would normally be invisible to him.  No other aircraft in production at the moment has this facility, only the F-35 possesses it.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.

The RAAF because it has an urgent need for a replacement for it's aged fleet of F/A-18A/Bs needs to purchase the F-35.  Unfortunately, it needs to do so early in the production run of the aircraft, when it is more expensive to purchase them than later in the production run when it would be cheaper to buy them ("economies of scale" produce that effect).   If instead of purchasing the F/A-18A/Bs replacement in one job lot it spread the purchase out over a decade, the prices would fall dramatically.  However, that is not how the ADF operates unfortunately.

Will the F-35 always be superior to Russian/Chinese/Swedish/European aircraft?  More than likely not.  In 20 years there will be other, newer aircraft on the market.  However, we cannot wait 20 years for our replacement aircraft - nor would we necessarily get the other newer aircraft as cheap as we are getting the F-35.  Our membership in the US alliance assures us of cheaper FMS (Foreign Military Sales) prices which are significantly cheaper than what are paid commercially for military products.  It is the one good thing about being closely allied to the US IMO.

So, think about the now, children, not the future.   NOW we need a replacement fighter-bomber, which will replace the F/A-18A/Bs we presently operate and enhance the capabilities of the RAAF.   We cannot afford to wait.  Simples really.


Oh dear what a dill ....

15 years we have been involved in the F35 program

we signed for 48 under LABOR & now 72 with the LNP ...

we got one or two testers last year & one or two 2018...

won't see a operational unit until after 2022.

So much for we what we need now ... putz. Roll Eyes
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #83 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:23pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:05pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:33pm:
*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Much like your pretense of all knowledge ey? DH.

BTW Noddy since when have our politicians been experts on defense.

Like all the experts on the Collins Class Sub fiasco?  Grin


*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

The COLLINS class are still one of the largest, quietest, conventional submarines in service around the world.  For a first effort at Submarine building, they are not as bad as the media as portrayed them as.  The British BTW, the world's experts at design and submarine construction,  and welded a hull section on, upside down on their nuclear attack class of submarines,  the USA, had to scrap an entire boat on the stocks 'cause the welds were done incorrectly.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Their ongoing failings & constant upgrade requirements which saw them out of action for long periods make them on a par in the respective time frame as being bottomless money pits.

As for not knowing ones arse from ones elbow I'll take that as being advice from an expert in that dept.  Roll Eyes


The problem with the COLLINS class is that we don't have enough crews for them.  The RAN cannot keep the crews trained and onboard the boats for long enough.  Now the mining boom is well and truly over, that may change.  The RAN found they were training their crews to only have them piss off to the mines where they got four times the wage.

The COLLINS class have actually been an excellent boat, when in service.  They are one of the largest, quietest submarines in service today.   We did a good deal (note, not an excellent one, Kokums tried to do the dirty on us at one point) and we did an adequate job (not a great job) building them.  The RAN stuffed up in the contract they used to pay for the submarines which is why they ended up with inadequate control systems.   Those have now been replaced and updated.   

While they did not end up as quiet as originally envisaged, they were still far better than the ignorant media portrayed them to be.  The problem was the Labor Government decided to retrench a large number of middle-ranking naval officers, many of whom had been involved in the building of the COLLINS class.  Embittered they were willing to spill the beans to the media and the media (read Murdoch) was only too willing to publish anything embarrassing to Labor.   They are significantly quieter their predecessors (the OBERON class) and significantly quieter than comparable nuclear powered submarines.  They are simply not "twice as quiet" as the OBERON classes as originally specified.


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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #84 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:43pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.


Agreed. A 1960s vintage F-111 isn't going to do the job these days.

Despite a problematic development, the F-35 is coming good. Just like the F-111 did back in the late 60s
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #85 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:50pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:14pm:
Oh dear what a dill ....

15 years we have been involved in the F35 program

we signed for 48 under LABOR & now 72 with the LNP ...

we got one or two testers last year & one or two 2018...

won't see a operational unit until after 2022.

So much for we what we need now ... putz. Roll Eyes


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should have just dropped into the corner shop and bought a new fighter-bomber off the shelf?  In reality, what happened was the US suggested we might like to become involved in the development and manufacture of a new aircraft and therefore we could buy it at a reduced price.  The Australian Government accepted and we placed an initial order for 48 and then later an increased order for up to 72 aircraft. These are not things you buy off the shelf, if you're a first world nation.  You try and cut the best deal possible with off-sets where we manufacture parts of the aircraft or other aircraft which the original manufacturers purchase back off us.

The F-35 is still the most advanced fighter-bomber jet aircraft in production.  A fact that you cannot get away from, no matter how much you whinge and whine.  Aircraft nowadays take time to develop and the F-35 is running roughly on schedule.  20 years from the time the first pen hit the paper is not bad going nowadays.   Nothing else matches the F-35 at the moment or for the foreseeable future.   Get over it and stop your whinging and whining.   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #86 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 5:02pm
 
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.


Agreed. A 1960s vintage F-111 isn't going to do the job these days.

Despite a problematic development, the F-35 is coming good. Just like the F-111 did back in the late 60s


It is doing better than the F-111.  It has suffered only one crash thus far.  The F-111 suffered fewer crashes during development than the F-4 Phantom yet when the F-111 was being developed, we never heard of any comparison with other aircraft types.  The F-35 has had one loss in ~20 years of development. 
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #87 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:23pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:05pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:33pm:
*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Much like your pretense of all knowledge ey? DH.

BTW Noddy since when have our politicians been experts on defense.

Like all the experts on the Collins Class Sub fiasco?  Grin


*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

The COLLINS class are still one of the largest, quietest, conventional submarines in service around the world.  For a first effort at Submarine building, they are not as bad as the media as portrayed them as.  The British BTW, the world's experts at design and submarine construction,  and welded a hull section on, upside down on their nuclear attack class of submarines,  the USA, had to scrap an entire boat on the stocks 'cause the welds were done incorrectly.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Their ongoing failings & constant upgrade requirements which saw them out of action for long periods make them on a par in the respective time frame as being bottomless money pits.

As for not knowing ones arse from ones elbow I'll take that as being advice from an expert in that dept.  Roll Eyes


The problem with the COLLINS class is that we don't have enough crews for them.  The RAN cannot keep the crews trained and onboard the boats for long enough.  Now the mining boom is well and truly over, that may change.  The RAN found they were training their crews to only have them piss off to the mines where they got four times the wage.

The COLLINS class have actually been an excellent boat, when in service.  They are one of the largest, quietest submarines in service today.   We did a good deal (note, not an excellent one, Kokums tried to do the dirty on us at one point) and we did an adequate job (not a great job) building them.  The RAN stuffed up in the contract they used to pay for the submarines which is why they ended up with inadequate control systems.   Those have now been replaced and updated.   

While they did not end up as quiet as originally envisaged, they were still far better than the ignorant media portrayed them to be.  The problem was the Labor Government decided to retrench a large number of middle-ranking naval officers, many of whom had been involved in the building of the COLLINS class.  Embittered they were willing to spill the beans to the media and the media (read Murdoch) was only too willing to publish anything embarrassing to Labor.   They are significantly quieter their predecessors (the OBERON class) and significantly quieter than comparable nuclear powered submarines.  They are simply not "twice as quiet" as the OBERON classes as originally specified.




How many fully working Collins subs are actually on patrol out in the deep sea?
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #88 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:23pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:05pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:33pm:
*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Much like your pretense of all knowledge ey? DH.

BTW Noddy since when have our politicians been experts on defense.

Like all the experts on the Collins Class Sub fiasco?  Grin


*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

The COLLINS class are still one of the largest, quietest, conventional submarines in service around the world.  For a first effort at Submarine building, they are not as bad as the media as portrayed them as.  The British BTW, the world's experts at design and submarine construction,  and welded a hull section on, upside down on their nuclear attack class of submarines,  the USA, had to scrap an entire boat on the stocks 'cause the welds were done incorrectly.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Their ongoing failings & constant upgrade requirements which saw them out of action for long periods make them on a par in the respective time frame as being bottomless money pits.

As for not knowing ones arse from ones elbow I'll take that as being advice from an expert in that dept.  Roll Eyes


The problem with the COLLINS class is that we don't have enough crews for them.  The RAN cannot keep the crews trained and onboard the boats for long enough.  Now the mining boom is well and truly over, that may change.  The RAN found they were training their crews to only have them piss off to the mines where they got four times the wage.

The COLLINS class have actually been an excellent boat, when in service.  They are one of the largest, quietest submarines in service today.   We did a good deal (note, not an excellent one, Kokums tried to do the dirty on us at one point) and we did an adequate job (not a great job) building them.  The RAN stuffed up in the contract they used to pay for the submarines which is why they ended up with inadequate control systems.   Those have now been replaced and updated.   


While they did not end up as quiet as originally envisaged, they were still far better than the ignorant media portrayed them to be.  The problem was the Labor Government decided to retrench a large number of middle-ranking naval officers, many of whom had been involved in the building of the COLLINS class.  Embittered they were willing to spill the beans to the media and the media (read Murdoch) was only too willing to publish anything embarrassing to Labor.   They are significantly quieter their predecessors (the OBERON class) and significantly quieter than comparable nuclear powered submarines.  They are simply not "twice as quiet" as the OBERON classes as originally specified.




Many places experienced staff losses due to the mining boom & the higher wages ... not just the Navy.

And the "when in service" just confirms my point.

We go from crap decision to crap decision with our ADF hardware ...... the F35's are shaping up to be another.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #89 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:13pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:14pm:
Oh dear what a dill ....

15 years we have been involved in the F35 program

we signed for 48 under LABOR & now 72 with the LNP ...

we got one or two testers last year & one or two 2018...

won't see a operational unit until after 2022.

So much for we what we need now ... putz. Roll Eyes


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should have just dropped into the corner shop and bought a new fighter-bomber off the shelf?  In reality, what happened was the US suggested we might like to become involved in the development and manufacture of a new aircraft and therefore we could buy it at a reduced price.  The Australian Government accepted and we placed an initial order for 48 and then later an increased order for up to 72 aircraft. These are not things you buy off the shelf, if you're a first world nation.  You try and cut the best deal possible with off-sets where we manufacture parts of the aircraft or other aircraft which the original manufacturers purchase back off us.

The F-35 is still the most advanced fighter-bomber jet aircraft in production.  A fact that you cannot get away from, no matter how much you whinge and whine.  Aircraft nowadays take time to develop and the F-35 is running roughly on schedule.  20 years from the time the first pen hit the paper is not bad going nowadays.   Nothing else matches the F-35 at the moment or for the foreseeable future.   Get over it and stop your whinging and whining.   Roll Eyes



Rubbish -  the F-35 is not running roughly on schedule -
it's about 5 years behind schedule and countless $billions over budget.
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